The Fresh Loaf

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Starter after just one day?

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

Starter after just one day?

Hello.

 

I've started my whole wild perennial rye starter yesterday at 19:00[7 PM]. I've feed it today at 17:00[5 PM] and after 4 hours it has doubled in size. It has this slight sour smell, like a jar of sour/pickled cucumbers/gherkin or sauerkraut. I've never seen anything like that. The starter was in a warm room of 25*C. Is my starter still going in right direction? I thought i should get a yeasty/fruity smell first. Do i got yeast or other bacteria here? Im using 1:1 flour/water ratio, and im following the "no discarding" method. 

Here's photo

https://i.imgur.com/r0VYzJU.jpg

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You probably got your hands on some rye with a dense microbe population. is it whole grain, 100% extraction?

I’m not sure about the “no discard” method. Please explain.

See THIS LINK for more info.

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco
RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

I've increased temperature to 35*C, i've tasted the starter today and it has bitter-fermented taste. Weird. Should i start over? Was the temperature too high? I've put some towel on my heater/radiator and put the starter on that, leaving it for night yesterday. Maybe the temperature was too high and some weird bacteria took over? 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Yes. 35C/95F is too hot for a healthy starter to sustain. But you may not have to start over.

This explains why your starter is so sour. Your starter should also be very soupy and slack. The acids will degrade the dough (flour).

It is believed that:
Yeast are able to thrive in temps up to ~82F
LAB will thrive in higher temps - at least up to 93F and even more.
Your hot temps caused the LAB to flourish and the yeast to decrease.

You can try the following

Take a portion of your starter (keep the original going, just in case things don’t work out with the new one. Feed the new starter 1:5:5 (maybe 10g starter + 50g water + 50g flour. Try to keep the temp around 80F - not much higher. Watch the level of rise and re-feed with same ratio using 10g of the matured new starter. Photograph and let us know how things proceed. 

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

Im going to start over and use plain old white flour, instead of this artisan perennial whole rye crap :P Or maybe i will start new one with the same flour and see side by side how they develop. 

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

I've just started new one with same flour. The old one has some sign of activity but nowhere near what it had yesterday, i guess 15*C lower really slow things down. 

 

Edit: I've thrown the new i've made, and made even better one. I heard that mixing two flours is better, since you get yeasts and germs from two different places, so ive mixed that rye flour with my plain bread flour 50%/50%. At least consistency is not like clay putty anymore, which i think will be better for yeast and bacteria mobility. 

I think bitter taste is from dead/overgrown LAB/acidic bacterias. Just like old milk/yoghurt can taste bitter, because these bacterias have either produced too much metabolic products, or are either dead, or there's too many of them[im not a microbiologist, i dont know why they taste bitter, maybe that's something to do with human taste receptors?].So lesson learned -never place your starter in a place that can have temperatures over 35 degree, up to 40. That will come handy if i ever have to live in such place, throwing starter at day to fridge/cellar might be a good idea in such case. 

One more thing, do you think using warm water like 25*C over tap water which is like 16-18*C will make a difference? Im not fixated on best performance, or fastest growth, i just want my starter to not go rancid/bad/moldy. 

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

Ok so i've started that starter two days ago. Yesterday i've feed it before sleeping somewhere at 0:00AM. Now it has nearly doubled in the morning. Should i stick to 24h feeding routine, or feed it again when it's at it's peak? I heard withholding food from starter at the beginning might be beneficial to creating acid environment which is good in killing other undesirable bacterias? Or is it better to feed at peak and develop yeast, with the outgrowing method -the good stuff will outspeed the bad stuff.

SugarOwl's picture
SugarOwl

The yeastie beasties are on whole grain. I had luck starting mine with rye (Arrowhead Organic). I used half rye and half whole wheat to feed it. Start with your rye, then slowly move it to another type of flour if you wish. When mine was looking a little lack luster, I would just feed it an additional spoonful of rye and it would come back to life. There is something about that rye they really liked! Now a days I have my starter dehydrated for when I have time for it again.

I also kept mine small so discards were minimal, if any. It is hot here so mine was in fridge and got fed once a week. Once your starter is established you can keep it in the refrigerator to slow. I also used the pineapple juice method (on here somewhere) for starting mine. For starting mine, I used 1 tablespoon of flour and water, not that 1 cup, Rye is not cheap.

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

My starter must be another story of the beginning growth spurt followed by dormant state. On second feeding it hasnt doubled, in fact it hasnt risen at all, and seems dormant. Feeded it today at the morning. Will see if it helps. Also added a few sips of water to make it more watery -maybe that will help yeast to move around to get food. The smell is good -youghurty, sour, no bitter aftertaste when i tasted it. 

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

Ok so my starter have nice fruity/youghurt/sour smell, but after the initial growth spurt that happened in day 2, it is practically dormant and hasn't risen in two days. I see very small bubbles in some places, but other than that, i dont know why it can't rise again after that nice growth in day 2. Some people said that the initial rise is due to bad bacteria, that then dies off, and now you actually start to cultivate yeast. Is that true? Then why some people can achieve good starters in just 4 days? Im at day 4 and nothing is going on. What are the signs starter need feeding? Should i feed it more, or do the opposite -leave it unfeeded for some time[some people suggest that]?

Benito's picture
Benito

At this quiet stage that almost all new starters go through, it is best to stir a few times per day and don't feed again until you start seeing more bubbles.  If you over feed then you are decreasing the concentration of the microbes that you want to expand in your starter.  Stir frequently, keep it in a warm place and feed again once you see some activity ie more bubbles.

 

RainingTacco's picture
RainingTacco

Thanks Benito. I will try to starve it a little :P