Mistaking Lactobacillus activity for Yeast?
Does Lactobacillus produce enough off-gas with their metabolism to make a starter rise and appear like it's yeast?
My starter is at least doubling every 12 hours. in most cases, it's peaking in about 8-9 hours. When I do my 12-hour feeding, it's starting to flatten or has flattened, but hasn't started collapsing. It's been very consistent and my temperature in the basement is a very steady 72 deg F.
However, I have made 5 loaves of bread, and all of them have not raised well. The last two (including today's) didn't raise at all. I took the starter for today's loaf about 11 hours after feeding. I knew it wasn't at peak, but it hadn't collapsed, so I assumed there would be some activity and some rising. Zero. Notta. Zilch. Flat. The starter failed the float test miserably. Sank like a stone. Recipe called for 2.5 hours of bulk fermentation and 2.5 hours of final proofing. I gave it 4 hours of bulk fermentation with one stretch and fold after 50 minutes. Didn't touch it after that. No change in size. Gave it 2 hours of final proofing. Nothing. Didn't move a centimeter in the pan. Temperature was between 75-77 degrees for the entire time the dough was in bulk fermentation and final proofing. Had a damp towel over the loaf pan during final proofing.
Any ideas? I knew the learning curve would be steep, but I'm running out of excuses when my wife asks me why I'm wasting my time with this and that I should just go back to Dry Active Yeast. In every loaf, the flavor is great and has a nice sour flavor. I'm fairly confident the fermentation is working well.
Fortunately, I'm getting enough oven spring to at least get some toast slices and a few small sandwich slices.
I've included some pictures from today's adventure, and I started keeping a starter log after the failed loaf on Sunday.
Any chance that all the activity I'm seeing in the starter is bacteria related and not from yeast?
Starter after 7 hours (almost doubled)
Starter after 7 hours (slight dome in center)
Starter after 13 hours (still spongey)
After 2 hours of final proofing (6 hours total bulk fermentation/final proofing). No rising at all.
Some oven spring but a very sad loaf (Decent flavor though)
There is a well known issue with leuconostoc bacteria dominating some starters in the beginning, which can mimic an active starter. There are probably loads of other issues you can run into with your starter. You are not alone! Debra Wink, a biochemist and baker posted an excellent two part article on this site called the pineapple juice solution that you should check out. It relies on pineapple juice to establish a more friendly pH for sourdough cultures to grow.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2
In Whole Grain Breads, Peter Reinhart mentioned a significant number of his test bakers were unable to reproduce his starter recipe, and they eventually tracked it down to this issue. He is an advocate of her solution.
I faced similar problems and had many failures while nursing along my home grown starter for over 1 month attempting all kind of fixes along the way. Eventually I purchased one for comparison and it became immediately obvious that the starter was my problem. I was feeding them side-by-side with plans to build up my home grown starter, but eventually decided it was more important to focus on learning baking. I understand the disappointment, and I highly recommending eliminating a huge variable in the equation and starting with a good active starter. You can always work on your home grown starter in parallel or in the future.
Don't let it discourage you from sourdough baking. Stick with it! There are many experienced bakers who will help you along the way.
Thank you much for the information and encouragement. I'll check out the two part article today!
How did it feel after "bulk" and how did if feel after "proof"?
The pan appears to have shallow angles, which will cause more spreading out than rising high. Starter seems fine - if I'm reading the notes correctly.
A warning I always give when following someone else's directions - don't expect it to work for you. Too many variables.
What to try - "bulk" it till it gets jiggly (jello like) however long it takes, and "proof" to the same, however long that takes. Timings happen to be the biggest variable. Enjoy!
PS - a little yeast never hurt anything. When trying to make things work within a specific time frame, it'll be your best friend.
Not sure I'd say it was jiggly...
After hand kneading for 8 minutes, the dough was fairly smooth but firm. After the initial 50 minutes of bulk, it was very soft and smooth. It firmed up significantly with a full stretch and fold in the bowl. It was soft, very pliable, and a little sticky when shaping. I had to use a light dusting of flour to keep it from sticking to the counter top.
I've resorted to the fact that I'm going to have to supplement with Active Dry if my float test fails again. :-)
If you're stuck on the float test - good luck. I'd worry more about the jiggle. Enjoy!
Yet only focus on the final dough in your question. Let's back it up a bit. How do you maintain your starter? I suggest spending a bit of time giving your starter some TLC then try a simple recipe which involves a high percentage pre-ferment. A good starter build with a slightly lower hydration at room temperature...
Allow this to peak and repeat till you get a good strong growth and a yeasty aroma. Only go into each feed once it has peaked. When it's good and healthy try another recipe.
I think my challenge is recognizing what's causing the peak. Although the ratios are different, that's kind of what I've been doing. Waiting for the peak to form with a 40:30:30 ratio with 100% WW flour. It forms a nice dome that's easy to see in 8 hours that flattens by my roughly 12 hour feeding point.
The starter has an aroma that is not unpleasant. I think I might need to train my nose on what "yeasty" smells like. Is it very similar to the smell of Active Dry yeast?
When you say 40:30:30 do you mean 40g starter + 30g water + 30g flour? That's even less than 1:1:1. I'd expect that to peak 4-6 hours. You also live in a warm country if I remember correctly and your kitchen is normally high 70s low 80s. Keep up that feed, fermenting quickly and building up acidity the yeasts might begin to dwindle and then your starter tips in favour of bacteria. Eventually it'll slow down become sluggish etc.
Try a switch. 10g starter + 40g water + 50g flour (45g bread + 5g whole wheat). If it's very warm you can feed it chilled water. If around 70-75°F then room temperature water. Your starter right now will probably take longer to peak and will do fine at 12 hourly intervals. If it takes longer then wait longer. Once it begins to speed up, bubble up stronger and peak higher it's ready.
Will be interesting to see how this progresses...
I did one jar at 30:30:30 and the other jar at 10:40:40. Both of them with 100% WW flour. Temperature in the basement is a very steady 72 deg F.
Will see how they look after 8 hours...
Definitely a difference...
Both the 30:30:30 and the 10:40:40 were about doubled and domed at 8 hours. By 12 hours, the 30:30:30 had flattened. The 10:40:40 was still somewhat domed, but I'm not sure it increased anymore. It's in a narrower jar, and I'm not sure it could support itself beyond a doubling.
I did another feeding at 30:30:30 on that one. The 10:40:40 was only stirred down. If I don't see any signs of further growth in the next couple hours, I'll do another 10:40:40.
Give it a few more feeds this way. See if it gets stronger and rises higher. Once you see a more noticeable improvement in the strength of the starter then use it for a recipe.
Still expanding...
Just went and checked, and it has increased about 10% in an hour after stirring it down.
Let it go until it stops expanding?
Leave it now. Let it expand till peaked then feed again.
I stirred it down a second time at 2:30 PM and it peaked after another 6 hours (about 24 hours total). I did the first 10:40:40 test in a small jam jar that I had, so after yesterday, I mixed at 10:40:40 in the pint jar I was using for the 30:30:30 (after thoroughly rinsing). The jam jar didn't have enough room for a 3x expansion.
It's been 9.5 hours and hasn't doubled yet. Will see how it progresses throughout the day.
And waiting too long. Stick to feeding, waiting for it to peak then feed again. A good sign for peaking is either the dome just begins to fall or holes start appearing on top.
You might be pushing it too far and the slowing down is because yeasts are depleting. Once peaked the starter begins to favour the bacteria over yeasts.
Don't over think the process. A good feed and peaked = healthy starter and yeast population. Less healthy feeds and/or over fermented makes more a more tangy starter favouring the bacteria.
A 10:40:40 feed should peak within 6-8 hours if warm and a bit longer if cooler. Stirring down a feed and waiting 24 more hours before the next feed is overkill.
Abe's right about feeding higher amounts. And someone else mentioned time. Also correct.
If you are like me, you have a daily cycle. You get up, you go to work, you come home, you go to sleep. Getting up and getting home is about 12 hours apart (if you count screwing around time during those periods).
So be honest with yourself... when are you REALLY going to feed... comfortably... within your daily cycle.
Then, you have to add enough food - no more, no less - to last until the next feeding. What you want to do is feed "at peak" each and every time you feed. That will strengthen your yeast colony.
Once your colony is good and strong, try raising a dough. Or a levain. (They are both a starter, really, by another name.)
But THIS dough will be small. Try doing the 123 Sourdough No Knead - Do Nothing Bread dough but instead of 100:200:300, do 10:20:30 (starter:water:flour).
If you can raise the small version, you can raise the full size version.
Next step? Practice your timing for a bake. If you want to bake on a weekend but the weekend cycle doesn't follow your weekday cycle, you might need to refrigerate for a few hours. That can get tricky but practicing small will cut down the stress factor.
All my best,
Murph
That has been and will be the challenge...
Doing my best to maintain a 12-hour schedule. However, if it's truly an issue of catching and feeding right at the peak, I might be better off saving myself the frustration and go back to Active Dry breads. I'll never be able to time it that precisely. :-)
If it peaks at 8 hours and you're still in bed then it doesn't mean it's going to completely run out of food. Just feed at the next opportunity and next time do a larger feed. Indeed starters and levains are often fermented more so then a final dough as you're balancing the flavour for the final outcome. The final dough is fermented for flavour too but also concentrating on a string dough and tall loaf.
For now all you're doing is building up the yeast in your starter and making it stronger. Healthy feeds and allowing it to peak before feeding again. Don't over think it. Or watch it so much or stir it down and wait too long to get every last food eaten up. In fact once the food starts to deplete the yeast slow down and the bacteria takes over.
Feed, peak, feed peak, feed, peak.... Etc. Soon it'll get stronger.
Agreed. 100%
Throw refrigeration into mix at ~85% of full rise if you will miss a cycle(s).
Feed peak feed peak at normal room temps to reflect your reality.
Murph