The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Community Bake - NY Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye breads

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Community Bake - NY Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye breads

 The Eric Hanner Memorial Jewish Bakery Rye Bread Community Bake

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For those who wish to limit or disengage from the flood of email notifications associated with long threads such as these CBs produce, Dan had written up how to do so

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66354/tip-how-stop-email-notification-any-topic

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As many of you know, Dan has been at the helm of the Community Bakes since its inception, and was his own invention.  Along the way he created a community within the TFL community with smashing success.  Recently Dan asked if I was interested in taking the steering wheel for a while, feeling that he needed to step away for some time.  Rather than hosting, he’d rather assume the role of contributor.  Gladly! 

Suggesting 4 categories to explore for this CB, I asked for those interested to select one.  The overwhelming response was rye.  My goal was to find a few breads that were not demanding of extraordinary time, effort and particularly avoiding out of the ordinary ingredients or baking tools and hardware.  And all having a common theme.

Paul McCool suggested I consider the Eric Hanner Jewish Rye Bread.  Eric passed away unexpectedly 8 years ago this month.  From all accounts he was a liked and well respected participant in the community.  This CB is in memory of Eric.

I offer three differing Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye Breads.  All provide unique experiences as far as how the dough will react during all phases.  All employ a 100% hydration preferment.

The first two breads have a link to the original post.  The third is my own interpretation as well as my experience and steps.

Eric Hanner employs what he refers to as a Sponge, It is composed of 26% rye, and 71.5% hydration.  If your experience is anything like mine, the dough will challenge the newly initiated Rye baker to a formidable sticky and difficult dough to manage.  It bakes up beautifully and has an extraordinary taste.

David Snyder uses a Rye Sour.  Built in three stages.  It is composed of 44% rye and 72% hydration.  Contrary to any reasonable expectation considering the elevated rye percentage, it does not exhibit any of the overly sticky qualities of the first dough.  I would consider this the closest of the three to a true NY Jewish bakery rye bread.

Alfanso’s is a faux Jewish Bakery Rye, for contrast and variety.  It uses a standard AP flour Levain.  It is composed of 25% rye and 73.5% hydration.  I treat the dough as I do for mostly every other bread that I make.  It is the most manageable of the three and the least traditional.  If you wish to use a Rye Levain instead, make the appropriate adjustments to the amount of AP and rye flours for the final mix.  Percentages will not need to be adjusted (unless you want), only the amounts at Final Mix time.

My blog post of the 3 formula write-ups are found here.

Notes:

  • All three breads call for a Medium Rye Flour.  Mine is also stone ground.
  • All three of my own entries will be found in this link and have been scaled at 1000g.
  • These can be made within a 2 day span or less:
  • Eric’s version is made with a 1 stage overnight sponge, but if you are an early riser, the entire process can be done in the course of a day, the first 8 hours awaiting the sponge to complete fermentation.
  • David’s requires the 3 stage rye sour, which will take a full day to accomplish.  However, for the sake of expediency, I’ve whittled that down to ~6 hours via a heating pad and maintaining a 90dF environment for the rye to ferment.  This may sacrifice some of the qualities a longer fermentation, but can also be done in a short day.  This version also uses a significant boost of IDY, hence the short period between mix and bake.
  • Alfanso’s requires a levain to be readied.  Mixing and fermentation are minimal, but the formula asks for an overnight retard.  Instead, a few hours of countertop proofing if you wish, although I’ve never done that.

Traditional Jewish Rye Bread “begs" the use of an ultra high gluten flour, I wanted to avoid requesting people to source something along the lines of a First Clear flour.  For the first two I use a supermarket brand bread flour that may be as high as 12.9% protein.  For the third I use my standard  King Arthur AP flour that has a stated protein of 11.7%, but to get a more optimal result I did add VWG.

You do not need an ultra high gluten flour to produce these.  Unfortunately if your only available flours are weaker than what I mention above, you may have to supplement the flour with something like a Vital Wheat Gluten to elevate the protein.  If you decide to do this, there is the long-way manual tool Pearson’s Square, which can be used to adjust protein percentages.  OR use this link to the Foodgeek VWG% calculator.

All three breads have caraway seeds added, as do many Jewish Rye breads.  You can eliminate these if you wish or supplement / replace them with a fennel seed, for instance.

A few references about rye flours:

The fine print...

As always, the CB is a place created for a collaborative effort, both to enhance one’s skills as well as to help others with their skills.  By no means are the formulae meant to be the be-all-andend-all of the CB.  Rather, they are a framework of three distinct ways to achieve a bread that meets the general criteria.  I encourage you to experiment and explore, to modify and to introduce to our CB participants your own experiences and versions.  And most of all, to learn and help all of us to better ourselves as bakers.  I also encourage you to find something you like, change one or many things about it and to make it your own!

And as Dan said:

All bakers of every skill level are invited to participate. Novice bakers are especially welcomed and plenty of assistance will be available for the asking. The Community Bakes are non-competitive events that are designed around the idea of sharing kitchens with like minded bakers around the world, "cyber style". To participate, simply photograph and document your bakes. You are free to use any formula and process you wish. Commercial Yeast, sourdough, or a combination of both are completely acceptable. Once the participants gets active, many bakers will post their formulas and methods. There will be many variations to choose from.

Here is a list of our past CBs. They remain active and are monitored by numerous users that are ready, willing, and able to help if assistance is needed. A quick browse of past CBs will provide an accurate picture of what these events are all about.

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Since many of the CBs grow quite large, it can become difficult to follow the progress of each individual baker. Things get very spread out. In an attempt to alleviate congestion and consolidate individual baker’s bread post, the following is suggested.

Links to baker’s BLOGs that have posted a compiled list of bakes for this CB

End note:  By no means do I consider myself a skilled rye baker.  This is my first experience baking Eric’s version and my third with David’s. My own version I bake with some frequency.

*For the original postings please click the links above.  My posting of the formula write-ups, click here

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I am using home milled non sifted at 83% I put dry rye flour on the top and the cracks are apparent as well as lots of gas bubbles below. Mine seemed ready at any point beyond 12 hours at 70 degrees.

I would say it's more of a flavoring since CY is also in the mix as in most of the Hammelman rye breads.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

This is what the levain looks like.

It is a thick, sticky mess. It could be used to patch sheet rock:-) The levain doesn’t rise much but it is evident that fermentation has taken place. The insides are airy, but the dough remains heavy.

I’ve made good rye with it before, just wanting to get feedback from others.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

It does look a little dense, almost like silt – which makes me wonder if the rye is very finely ground. I haven't ground rye in a number of years and have been using KAF Pumpernickel, which I think is rather coarsely ground. I'm no expert, but I would imagine that the grind could account for differences in texture and the relative "openness" of the mixture. As could the variety of rye. But if the starter a does good job of raising dough and you like the finished bread, it's all good 😊.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

After working a bit with lower hydration whole rye levain now, I have to say I was wrong - using the same flour at 100% hydration my starter can more than double, but at lower hydration (80% or 70%) it feels very dry (hydrating all of the flour is quite challenging in a tall jar) and doesn't rise as much. I am not sure if it's just a general property of rye, or, what was suspecting, is that the rye flour is milled more coarsely than in Germany or Eastern Europe, and doesn't hydrate as easily. I've seen a mention of this somewhere as a difference between rye flour in UK/US/etc and the countries with a long rye bread tradition. Not sure how finely you mill your flour.

But I agree, at lower hydration mine clearly doesn't trap the gas as well, and doesn't seem to grow beyond ~50%. (Unless there is just something wrong with my starter at the moment...)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ilya, I use a Cambro container. It is somewhat wide and tall.

I find the 100% extraction whole rye to be very thick.

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

OK, the width is probably not helping, it might not be able to hold the gas in the center so well. If I were you and really wanted to figure it out, I'd just repeat it in a narrower vessel. I am sure it can rise plenty. But as commented above, even if it's not rising much but it's smelling good and the consistency is changed (I think if you poke it you'll still see plenty of bubbles inside), it's good to use!

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

In the winter, our kitchen is cold so I keep it in the proofer at 70°F. Hamelman says 14-16 hrs but it doesn't usually take that long. More like 12-14 hrs, but it has gone to 15 hrs on occasion. In the summer, the house is well above 70°F, so I mix the levain last thing before bed, put it in the basement and say a prayer. I guess you could skip the prayer and reduce the seed amount :-)

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

A compilation of all rye bakes can be seen on MY BLOG.

When it comes to Rye Bread, Hamelman’s 40% Rye is my go-to Rye Formula. At 40% rye, especially at 100% extraction, the rye flavor is pushed to my flavor limit. The flavor difference between whole rye and rye that has been sifted to remove the bran and other large particles is huge! Since baking this formula, the breads have been moist and nice tasting.

The 1% diastatic malt was dropped and the Chocolate Malt (N/D) was scaled back to 1%. Those changes worked well and will be repeated in the future. The concept of fully developing the white flour before adding the rye levain has consistently worked well for me.

I really like Doc’s idea of sprinkling kosher salt on the crust (taste great), but I have noticed that it tends to melt, leaving small dark spots on the crust.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

They look very good. The crumb looks great for a 40% whole rye; is that attributed to the white flour development before the rye levain? What is the effect of the chocolate malt? The good shaping is reflected in the crumb.

Cheers,

Gavin.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Gavin, the chocolate malt does two things.

  1. it darkens the crust and also the crumb
  2. it adds a mild (at 1%), but distinct flavor to the bread. I think it gives the bread a more complex flavor.

As far as developing the white flour before adding the Rye levain. I am no authority on rye, but my rationale for this in that rye is somewhat large percentages makes a dough sticky, slimy, and an overall mess. So I figured if the gluten was well developed in the white flour first (a strong white flour is used for this), then the dough would be more apt to handle the incorporation of rye. What I do know is that all of the rye doughs (25, 35, & 40% whole rye) that I have baked, have handled somewhat like a typical wheat sourdough. They are easy to shape and score. I bet if I tried I could braid rye dough with a little patience and much care :-)

Danny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The flavors with rye in the 40-45% range just can't be beat.  Really consistent crumb, and the shaping is coming along so nicely, especially if you compare it to your first few bakes.  

PiPs doesn't have anything to worry about from either of us in the chevron scoring department, not with rye for anytime soon anyway!  I think we'll have way more success with the chevron cut on a different type of bread.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan, I liked the fact that the dough didn’t blow out with the chevrons. I’ve had problems with that in the past.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Danny, these are very handsome loaves. They stand tall – and no blowouts. I haven't baked the 40% Rye bread in a while because I've been more focused on holiday baking and test driving other rye formulas for the CB, but the next time I make the 40% Rye, I plan to try your technique of developing the gluten in the AP flour first. The chevrons are pretty, too. 

Benito's picture
Benito

That crumb is outstanding Dan, you really have these rye bakes figured out and from a very very early stage.

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, I REALLY think the white flour gluten development has a lot to do with my success.

I know you’ve tried the method. Have you tried the rye without that method? What are your conclusions?

Benito's picture
Benito

No I have only made the two rye breads with Eric’s recipe and have used your method of fully developing the gluten before adding the rye sour.  I figure why change and try without fully developing the gluten when doing so works so well.

Benny

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

These loaves look inviting.  I'll be picking up some chocolate malt.  Do you have any conclusions about techniques for scoring these 40% rye loaves, avoid blowouts, etc?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

HeadUp, it is my present thought that a bunch of scores have the best chance of preventing blowouts. Haven’t tested it long enough to know for sure.

I can say that the last bake of two loaves had one perfectly proofed and the other, over-proofed. The first loaf baked was too long to fit the stone without slanting it, thus two separate bakes and the last one over-proofed. It is interesting that the crumb on both loaves looked similar. BTW, the first loaf was long and skinnier.

I recommend keeping tne chocolate malt to 1% for the first attempt. That stuff is powerful :-)

Abe's picture
Abe

I bought some Organic Rye flour which did look like white rye but didn't specify on the packet. The description on the back was...

"This ancient grain flour produces dense, dark, richly flavoured bread......"

So i thought perhaps it looks pale but when mixed with water it'll take on it's true colour. Not specifying either way but with that description it could be just the variety and/or appearance when ground. However I was out of rye and bought it even though deep down I knew it's gotta be white rye. 

As soon as I opened the packet, got a closer look and put together the pre-ferment I knew it was white rye. Have used it before and couldn't be mistaken. It's a heck of a lot sticker than whole rye and it's basically like clay. If you think whole rye is sticky wait till you try white rye. Don't use white rye often even though I have easy access to it at a local store (which I would have gone to if wishing to purchase some rather than going further afield only to end up with the same thing). Produces nice results and tasty loaves but it's not easy to work with. I persevered and carried on with Hamelman's 40% Rye with Caraway seeds...

Overall Formula:

  • Bread Flour 300g
  • Rye Flour 200g
  • Water 340g
  • Caraway Seeds 9g
  • Salt 9g

Sourdough: 14-16 hours 

  • Rye Flour 195g
  • Water 161g
  • Starter 10g

Built it in the dough bowl and left it for 16 hours. Difficult to tell how much it exactly grew as it was in a big bowl but looked like quadrupled 'atleast'!

Final Dough:

  • Bread Flour 300g
  • Water 174g
  • Caraway Seeds 9g
  • Salt 9g
  • Sourdough 366g

Formed the dough by adding the water to the bowl and mixed till starter was fully distributed and the water turned milky. Added the flour, salt and caraway seeds then mixed till a very sticky dough formed. At this point it looked like no knead dough. I did my best to knead by mixing, rubaud method and kneading till it resembled a dough. Best I can describe it... a sticky ball of clay with gluten. 

Bulk fermented for 1 hour and it increased in size about double. Again, difficult to tell in a big bowl. Shaped into a lekue (silicone pouch) which I very rarely use it preferring a Pullman but it needs to be replaced. My oven set-up doesn't allow for freestanding loaves however the dough was small enough for good expansion as it's not as supported as a loaf pan. Didn't score the loaf as it's clay like texture, I thought, wouldn't allow for scoring. The oven spring was excellent and it did blow out a bit however I think it looks nice and makes a better photograph than the plain side. The dough has a nice hollow sound when tapped and feels light when picked up. Cooling now. 

 

 

 

Turns out it doesn't need as long before cutting into. A few hours is ample. Quite a nice crumb, creamy texture and a mild flavour allowing the caraway seeds to shine. Lots of people find the caraway strong but I think it compliments the rye and isn't overpowering at all. A very nice bake which will toast up well. 

Benito's picture
Benito

It looks really good Abe, I’m interested to see the crumb you’ve achieved, I’m sure it will be great.  

Abe's picture
Abe

So far so good. Everything points to a success and a good crumb but we'll see. I'm curious too but will wait till properly cooled. Perhaps later in tonight or tomorrow. 40% rye might be ok to cool for a few hours.

Abe's picture
Abe

Very happy with the overall bake Benny. A soft creamy crumb and the caraway compliments the pleasantly mild flavour. Not tangy at all nor are the caraway seeds over powering. Well balanced, very more-ish and will toast up well. It's tasty and leaves your mouth watering (literally the texture and seeds really does this) but won't take away or over power the traditional meaty filling. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Perfect Abe, beautiful crumb.  I’ve actually never seen white rye in any stores around here, but I admit, I only go to one place to get rye and all they have is dark stoneground which is what I now use for my starter and the two rye breads I’ve baked.  I have to try a different recipe with maybe 40% rye as Dan has baked up with great success to take more of the rye.

Abe's picture
Abe

I think dark rye will have a different texture to this. Also caraway seeds are often used in rye breads because rye has a similar taste to caraway. I love caraway seeds but some people find them too strong. Perhaps that's the case for dark rye plus caraway. The white rye has a more mild flavour and creamy texture which really is very pleasant. I also like the bake I've just done because it reminds me of the rye breads I used to have as a child from a local bakery which did sell deli rye. This loaf will compliment a deli sandwich and not take away from the fillings. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

And it looks as though you had rugby on the mind when you shaped it.  These are the colors of the rye bread I grew up with, almost to a 'T'.

This is right up there with the best crumb I've seen on this CB.

Sticky dough is a challenge, that's for sure, but the shaping is aces.

Abe's picture
Abe

The rugby shape is the silicone pouch. Can't fit a baking stone nor DO in my oven so some kind of form is needed. I prefer to use the Pullman however it needs replacing so out came my rarely used lekue hence the shape. 

You and me both Alan. When I bit into this loaf memories came flooding back. This is what we often bought on a Sunday morning bakery shop to have for lunch. One can see why it goes with a deli sandwich. Very tasty but allows the meat to be the star of the show. Gets the saliva glands going which the meat fulfills. 

White rye makes an odd dough but very pleasant outcome. 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Lovely.

Abe's picture
Abe

You know when you pick up a loaf after baking and tell by the lightness it's a success before cutting into it. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ever since I was a kid, we used to get Melba Toast packaged in cellophane in lots of two. The crunch was irresistible and they were very dark in color. I assume they were made with rye grain.

This morning an accident on my part revealed a neat trick, Melba toast in the microwave. All of my breads are sliced very thinly on a food slicing machine and the frozen. This morning I took out 2 small frozen slices for my daily egg breakfast. I nuked them on ‘Defrost’ and set the weight to ‘.01’. I forgot there were two slices and only removed one. After breakfast I went back to warm up some coffee and noticed the last piece in the microwave. Voila, Melba Toast was born. It was excellent, and more shall be eaten in the future. SUPER Crunchy!

Benito's picture
Benito

Cool discovery Dan, I’ve always loved Melba toast as well.

albacore's picture
albacore

Well, my type 997 rye flour finally arrived - it was sent on the slow train. And here is today's bake, loosely based on David Snyder's recipe, with 40% rye, but in my case only half of it in the sour - in accordance with classical German/Austrian methodology. I also did a Detmolder 3 stage sour and reduced the IDY to 0.4%. Bulk and final proof were done at 30C, so things still moved pretty fast.

Flavour is mild but pleasant with a hint of sour. Of course I've cut into it too soon! Oh and I haven't got the dreaded dry crumb that has previously plagued my ryes.

Lance

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Love your bake Lance.  The crust looks great and the crumb is perfect.  You also avoided the dreaded side splits yet had awesome ovenspring, I’d say you hit the fermentation and proof perfectly.

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Lance, that’s a nice looking slice. I tend to gawk at this type of crumb rather than the currently prestigious IG offerings.

Any ideas why we both experienced dry crumb when most others didn’t? Both of our dry crumb problems have disappeared, but I have no idea why that is so.

albacore's picture
albacore

Could be a good name for a musical duo, non?

Early days, but this bake used store bought rye flour, whereas my dry crumb was from home-milled. It's a long shot, but I did have a thought that rye might be especially sensitive to heat generated in the home mill. Perhaps I'll try your freezing tip next time, Danny.

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

You know, Lance. The last few bakes have taken a slightly different track. Typically I set the stones on my mill to ‘just kissing’. BUT for the last few bakes I considered starch damage, so the stones were set 3 or 4 click away from kissing. The thought was that by not grinding the grain so finely that the starch would be damaged less. The grain is always sifted using a 50 & 30 mesh. The second and last pass had the stones set to kissing. All of the grain was used in the dough.

This method will reduce some heat.

I still use my devised mechanical sifter for efficient and speedy operation. That idea is a keeper for me.

NOTE- IMO the bran adds a lot of flavor to the rye breads.

albacore's picture
albacore

So when do you put the bran fraction back in Danny?

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

If the bran (particles that didn’t pass through the 20 mesh) is to be used in the dough, they are put in with the middlings for the second and final milling. The stones are set to touching for the last pass.

I’ve written about this before, I am unable to reduce the size of the bran to fine particles. Even tried a Mortar and Pestle.

I am starting to re-think milling for the finest flour. For example in the rye breads it may be that a coarser over all flour works well. maurizio wrote something to that affect a while back.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

I've seen enough warnings about overheating that I've been concerned about it as of late too.  I don't have much intuition for how much I should care about it, however.  It would be great to devise some experiments to help measure the impact of overheated flour on final bakes.  Have you come across anything like this?

The improvised sifter is great, btw.  I was just thinking about DIY approaches to help automate all the manual shaking.

Benito's picture
Benito

I play the Violin, Viola, piano and a bit of ukulele, what do you play Dan, we could be a band or sorts?  LOL  

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

These day, I play the radio. But many years back, the trumpet. Once upon a time I was the Drum Major.

Benito's picture
Benito

Well we could certainly start a band then. 😝

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when the music started.  

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Haha, sorry Mini.

My music taste is certainly not everyone's cup of tea. I was formerly a house music DJ in my late teens / early twenties!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

he's not keen on action films either.  ..and he was being a bed hog.  Now I can stretch out my legs.  :)

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

You mean high stepping down the field with a baton leading the band. In many ways you still are that guy except the baton is made of dough.

albacore's picture
albacore

I remember watching a Canadian viola player in a local village hall many years ago. Jaime RT she was called and she played a 5 string viola - a fiddola as she called it. Very enjoyable!

Lance

Benito's picture
Benito

Violas are wonderful underappreciated instruments.  I’ve never seen a five string viola before Lance, I’ll have to look at that.  I haven’t played the viola in decades, but I started to play my violin again last year on and off.  It is very hard to pick up again after such a long time not playing.  My violin was made in London England in the 1700s, it deserves a better violinist than I to play it regularly.

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

one giant leap for bread-kind!  🎵It's beginning to look a lot like Snyder...🎵

That's one lovely crumb Lance.

albacore's picture
albacore

I'm pleased my rye baking has made a bit of progress!

Lance

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

in accordance with classical German/Austrian methodology

I was curious about this recently.  I've been using David Snyder's formula as a point of departure for whole grain bakes with 40% rye.  I have tried a simple 60/40 flour blend and used it uniformly in the sour and final mix.  My current thought has been to follow the approach of these deli ryes, allocating all of the rye to the levain/starter/sour, since it seems effective in this role (the microbes love it), and it seems hepful to save the wheat for gluten development in the final mix (this may be more important for whole grains).  The underlying assumption is that the gluten will be compromised more in the extended sour fermentation than the final mix or autolyse/saltolyse, and that plays less of a structural role in loaf form (oven spring, etc).  I was curious if there are reasons why one would want to deviate from this strategy and allocate some percentage of wheat to the sour.  From your comment I assume this is common in German/Austrian breads.  If I have that correct, Do you know the reason for this?  Perhaps the flavor is noticeably different with a higher percentage of the longer fermented wheat?

albacore's picture
albacore

Here is the table of percentages I used. Source here.

I think it's all about getting the correct amount of acidity into the final dough. Possibly with the American deli rye recipes, the sour isn't as fully developed and so it is permissible to use all the rye in the sour.

Lance

Abe's picture
Abe

A scald for some or all of the rye? It seems to bring out the best in rye. And if adding in some malt, and/or herbs and spices, include that in the scald too! 

Worth a try. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I was considering doing a scalded rye bread for the CB. But I think all recipes for scalded rye breads I found were quite different from deli style, with (nearly) all rye flour. So maybe it would work fine to use a scald in this sort of bread, but I'd rather see one somewhere first :)

Or if we expand the CB to properly all-rye breads, I'm happy to just bake a Borodisnky or some other traditional recipe, been a while since I've baked it :)

Abe's picture
Abe

Are suggestions but all rye breads are worth an entry on the community bake. Although taking one of the three recipes and giving it your own twist would also be interesting! Making it your own. My other idea is to toast the caraway seeds and grind them. 

Scalds are for texture and will bring out more sweetness in the bread. Adding the malt and toasted caraway will make it even more complex. 

Whatever you choose Ilya will be well received. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I tried to grind the seeds (without toasting), but they turned out to be remarkably hard, I couldn't do much to them by hand with a pestle&mortar. I'm sure an electric grinder will manage, of course.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and caraway.  The seeds are so hard they will frost a plastic cover, permanently.  Several ways to attack caraway is to place in a microwave bowl, add water to cover and bring water to a boil to soften, cool then grind.  Or use a hammer on the seeds but make a cloth ring around them on the board or you will have them all over the kitchen.  :)

When I grind caraway dry, I grind much more than I need because I don't want to do it often.  I prefer to buy it ground.

Abe's picture
Abe

But I have successfully ground them together with some malted rye grains. Guess I tricked my coffee grinder. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

got a pepper mill filled with caroway.  A bit quieter than the hammer but the neighbors are used to me pounding schnitzels. 

Abelbreadgallery's picture
Abelbreadgallery

Hi Alfanso. Nice bakes and happy holiday time.

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

I recently did this what they call in German Mischbrot. 
50% wole wheat and 50% dark rey. 

I let it bulk rise on room temp for about 8 ouhrs and put it in the fridge for a other 24 ouhrs. 


DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

DB, that is an interesting bake. AND 100% whole grain! The scoring is also nice. Looks like a great way to prevent rye blowouts.

Did you mill the flour?

Was the flour 100% extraction.

 

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

Is 100% ectracted and bought in from our local mill. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Once again we learn the the seemingly impossible, IS POSSIBLE :-)

Half of the flour is whole rye (a stickt mess) and the other half of the flour is whole grain wheat. WOW!

It looks like it Final Proofed in a banneton. Is that correct?

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

It is impossible to shape like we normally do. I just form it like it wash a lump of clay 😀

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

DB was it proofed in a banneton?

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

In the fridge eas it proofed in a banneton. 

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

In the fridge was it proofed in a banneton. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

What's the temperature in the refrigerator?

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

The temp is about 4 degrees C 39 degrees F.

Benito's picture
Benito

Nice bake dbazuin, very impressive crumb for 100% whole grain.  I also like your scoring it is original.

Benny

dbazuin's picture
dbazuin

The smell and taste is amazing. 

I was inspired by this video and https://youtu.be/l9g4AI_z3uY

 

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

This looks nice.  I'm always interested to see these whole grain bakes.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

A compilation of all rye bakes produced during the CB can be SEEN HERE.

Bake #6

A few tweaks from the last 3 bakes that used Hamelman’s 40% Rye formula.

  • 1% powdered cocoa was added. The 1% chocolate malt remained.
  • Hydration was reduced to 67%
  • 3% sesame seeds, dropped the dill seeds
  • decided to do a 5 strand braid on one bread, just to see if it could be done.

Taste -
The sesame seeds added slightly to the texture and flavor. The cocoa affected the color much more than the flavor. The bread darkened a little more and you had to really search to find any additional chocolate flavor.
Update - the bread is about 48 hr old and the flavor has definitely ramped up. It is my best tasting rye to date.

Texture -
The crust was only slightly thick, a good thing. The crumb was moderately moist and the chew was moderately substantial. The sesame seeds added a slight crunch to the crumb. All in all, a nice eating experience.

The Braid -
The 5 strand braid required a delicate touch, but it was easily manageable. I was surprised! BUT, after the final proof some areas of the strands were showing signs of degradation. I think the proteolysis from the whole rye (100% e traction) was too much for the dough. The braid might work if either the rye was reduced to 30%, or the rye was sifted to reduced some of the bran (ash content). The breakdown of the dough also greatly reduced the oven spring in the braided loaf.

My 100% whole milled rye levains never exhibit a large rise. I think using all of the grain, the lack of gluten, and the coarser grind have an affect on that. At any rate it raising the breads very well.

The flour was purposely milled to reduce starch damage.

When I see the clean bowl below, I know things are going well. Especially when it comes to rye.

Dough was just shaped.

Dough after Final Proofing.

 

 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Despite what you might be seeing indicating some proteolysis in the braided loaf, I really think that it is really impressive that you were able to do a rye braided loaf.  I’ve never seen that before, great challenge!

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, I did this in hopes of demonstrating how easily handled a 40% rye bread can be if the white flour is well developed before introducing the levain. At this time I am convinced that this is a worthy technique.

Benito's picture
Benito

Well it totally impresses me Dan, you really have great braiding skills.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

as pretty as a picture.  What a beautiful pair of rye breads.

Abe's picture
Abe

Braiding a 40% rye is impressive! And it's often challenging for the braids to keep when baking even with a bread flour dough. Your rye kept it's braid very well. I also like the more traditional rye shape with scoring and very good crumb. 

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Nice bakes.  You certainly raised the bar with shaping for this CB.  I have yet to try the technique.  This one will get you far on the British Baking Show. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Danny, you have natural skills when it comes to plaiting (braiding). This and your challah before are so very well executed. Nice bake, interesting flavour choice, is this something you invented or is it more common?

What makes you think the cracking was proteolysis?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Michael, it looked to me like the dough was breaking down. What would be your best guess?

The image below shows the dough after about an hour and 15 min proofed at 72F.

Below is a closeup.

The flavor choice, be it good or bad was all mine. I am a huge fan of beer brewers Chocolate Malted Barley. This particular malt is not diastatic.

When I mentioned “diastatic” it made me think that the great majority of all rye bakes on the CB displayed absolutely no gumminess at all. That’s amazing... I’ve seen it so bad, it was hard to slide a serrated knife through the loaf.

Danny, you have natural skills when it comes to plaiting (braiding).
Thank God for any natural skill. Normally, I struggle for every baking skill. And don’t always succeed. The Lievito Madre is a great example. LOL

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Pentosans of which rye is rich in, interfere with the gluten network, weakening the structure, notice how the breaking is occurring where there is the most physical tension.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I'm following up on this old-ish post in case anyone is interested. I baked the 40% Rye today and tried out Danny's technique of developing the gluten in the white flour first, then incorporating the rye sour. It took a long time for my mixer to thoroughly blend the two doughs and then one of the loaves broke down similarly to Dan's braided loaves. I don't recall this happening before and strongly suspect that the extra long mix caused the pentosans to misbehave. I could be wrong, but I think Dan only had this problem with his braided loaves. Possibly coincidence or possibly, as Michael suggested, it occurred at points of tension. Interesting to note that I made two loaves and it only happened to one of them, so maybe I shaped one tighter. Next time I make this bread, I'll mix it in the usual way and try to braid it, just to see what happens.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Just look at that braiding! I think the 5-strand braid is the prettiest one and you do it as well as I've ever seen it done.

Whatever caused the dough to break down at the center, I'm angry with it for marring your fine braid. What a great experiment. The technique warrants further testing, so I may join in the fun after my holiday baking wraps up.

Many worthwhile takeaways from this CB. Thanks to all for the learning experience!

–AG

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Finally clearing out my freezer of the ryes I had made when the CB first initiated, I was ready for something else, and the other day I made Richard Bertinet's version of stollen.  Much moister than Peter Reinhardt's version, I think this one is the keeper.  And then back to bread!  So why not another rye?, he asks.

This is one of the three ryes that I posted in the accompanying Blog, also linked to at the top of the initial CB post.  At 25% rye this is the same percent of rye as Eric Hanner's.  And while fairly sticky to French Fold at the outset, calms down over the course of 4 letter folds 20 min apart, a total of 80 min to BF.  40 French Folds, a 5 minute rest and a final 40 FFs were all that was necessary.  The couche barely needed to be floured.  I switched out the AP levain for a rye levain, my rye levain from the previous bakes was still peppy enough to do a 1 stage build.

Just for fun I decided on baguettes of 200g, 300g and 400g, and a braid of 300g.  Just for fun, you see.

Edit:

The 200g ficelle was gobbled up in no time flat yesterday, and the 400g was given away, leaving the 300g baguette to be attacked for this morning's toast.

  

 Ring out the old and ring in the new.  A mixed breakfast plate of the last of the previous bake and the mid-sized baguette.   Tasted side by side, the 40% (or is it 44%) rye exhibits significantly more rye flavor than the 25% rye baguette, and also has the sour notes.  The 25% rye baguette is devoid of that deep rye flavor but still has a quite pleasing taste.

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow now I can say I’ve seen two braided ryes, This must be some sort of new bread category now!

Beautiful baggies Alan with your trademark ears and shaping.  

I hope you post your Stollen somewhere as well, I’d love to see it.

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The plan was to take the final 3 100g strands and form knot rolls but at the last minute...Not in the same universe as Dan's Delight, just something to pass the time and give it a go.

The stollen came out así así, pretty darned good but a learning experience to be improved upon in the coming days.  Too much frangipane filling was oozing out of the sides and the bars of marzipan were not a worthy addition for us. Stay tuna-ed.

thanks, Alan

Abe's picture
Abe

The colour of that crust looks very inviting and it looks like it has a crispy crust too! I love seeds in bread (be it caraway, fennel or any other) and seeing them scattered on top is very inviting. Excellent as always! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

always a favorite in my rotation and a comfortable bake for me with reliable results.  I'd never made a 200g ficelle before, and it seems to be the perfect size for a slender "French" baguette-like sandwich.  And pretty simple to execute, including getting some fine grigne.

Thanks, Alan

kendalm's picture
kendalm

These are among the most excellent of you eye appealing bakes.  Calling senior Floyd ! hows the crumb on these beauties ? 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I don't think it is easy to compare a batard crumb and baguette crumb for rye so easily.

These bake up like this every time, similar to a fat handful of other baguettes that I do with consistent results.

thanks, Alan

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

... of rye baguettes. Way back when, my mom used to get these skinny rye loaves called "cocktail rye" and she would serve it at parties with all the other appetizers. People could top them with cured meats or whatever, but she'd always spread a few tiny slices with cold butter and sprinkle them with kosher salt – her version of a finishing salt. People gobbled that stuff up. These baguettes put that stuff to shame. I love the shiny mahogany crust!  Can't wait to see the crumb.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The shiny is the result of applying David Snyder's version of the cornstarch slathering both pre and post bake.

I still see those cellophane packaged cocktail ryes on grocery shelves occasionally, but for the most part they are likely relegated to a bygone era.

thanks, Alan

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Haha, cocktail rye was craptastic. Or maybe it was just crap. I can't believe it still exists. It should be relegated to a bygone dumpster. But the cold butter and a few grains of smoked Malden salt on top? Yeah, that part might still be happening.

Your baguettes, on the other hand, look incredible... I showed the photos to my husband and he requested some STAT. He's going to have to wait till New Years, or at least next week. I'm anxious to try it. Thanks for sharing your formula.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

Only you could have done that. I am impressed with the shaping and scoring of the rye dough. Those would make excellent melba toast.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

it's because no one else is dopey enough to also do it.  I was pleased that the ficelle scored so well, having never made a scrawny baton like that before.  It might be Melba Toast if they were forgotten on an upper rack in the oven.

  • It is named after Dame Nellie Melba, the stage name of Australian opera singer Helen Porter Mitchell. Its name is thought to date from 1897, when the singer was very ill and it became a staple of her diet. The toast was created for her by chef and fan Auguste Escoffier, who also created the Peach Melba dessert for her.
Benito's picture
Benito

Lovely crumb Alan, beautiful bakes.

Benny

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Hi Alan, I just mixed the first levain build for your Faux Jewish Rye Baguettes, which I have on tap for tomorrow. Because I'm not much of a French folder, I plan to mix the dough in my Ankarsrum and was wondering what dough consistency to shoot for. I initially assumed you want something close to a typical deli rye dough, but I then realized that 200 French folds would probably develop a pretty strong gluten. Figured I better ask. 

Baguettes have never been my strong suit, but I'm excited to give this formula a whirl. Maybe your rye formula will be my "gateway baguette." Thanks for your help.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

with the exception of a few doughs including these high rye% doughs of late.  I've also mended my ways in terms of French Folds, thanks to suggestions and experimentations within the Baguette CB over the Summer.  And I should have therefore amended the instruction on FFs in the formula.  

These days my FFs on this bread, are now in the 40 FFs, 5 min rest, 40 FFs range.  The dough will be a bit on the sticky side both before and after the 5 min rest, which I would also suggest for a machine mix.  As with higher rye% doughs you'll want a decent gluten development to subsidize the lack of the gluten in the rye flour.  That comes naturally, as a good portion of the gluten development is going to happen during the bulk ferment as well.  As I do my Letter Folds on the wet counter top rather than in a bowl, I can tell you that the dough already has a lot of elasticity 20 minutes into the BF at the first LF.

One of the oddities of this dough is how much that stickiness disappears during bulk ferment, to the point where a well seasoned couche needs little flour to prevent sticking.

I generally don't shape after BF, but retard the dough for hours, pull it to divide and shape, and then place the couched dough back into retard for a few more hours.  The dough comes out of retard almost immediately before placing on the baking peel, so there is no final proof other than the time spent in retard. 

Once this dough has cooled down it becomes really easy to pre-shape and shape, a very compliant partner in the process.

I have to add, that I really don't think much about gluten development, don't have much of a game plan to achieve it, and it just happens for me by following these same general steps I outline above.  Never do float tests or windowpanes either.  So I'm a rather poor coach to give a definitive on the level of gluten development.  But I can say that I can FF pretty quickly, giving a mixer a run for it's money on first and perhaps on second speed.

The bread has a pleasant rye flavor, but will fall short of the 40% and up range we've seen elsewhere in this CB.

If you're interested enough or bored enough, I created a PDF which follows the journeys of 4 baguette bakers during the baguette CB.  You might want to give a peek to see the individual progress of the four, two of whom had just about no baguette experience when the CB started.  It can be found here.  Always happy to welcome another baguetteer into the brigade!

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

The dough has been napping in the fridge since this morning. It will be shaped after dinner and baked later tonight. I just hope I do it justice, but there will be photos either way. Fingers crossed!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Is that my Genea salami and cheese sandwich in the opening shot of the baguette PDF? It sure looks like my countertop, cutting board, and I kind of remember buying the hot pepper condiment at Eataly. If it is, wow, I am honored by the honorary mention! That is some good company to be associated with! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I was looking for a picture that would sum up all that is beautiful and possible with a fine baguette.

A few decades ago I queried a few friends about what their all time favorite sandwich was.  Tuna probably took the lead over BLT.  But mine was a Genoa and Provolone with roasted red pepper on a sesame seeded semolina baguette.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I am speechless! 

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Merry Christmas dear TFL members!

This is my submission for the community bake, I hope I am not too late with it!

 

The recipe is adapted based on the Hamelman's recipe "40% caraway rye". I made a blog entry with more details and video about how I made it:

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Any bake at any time is never too late. The Community Bakes are always open to participation. Many of us monitor the CB and are happy to reply to new entries. I will be baking another 40% Hamelman today.

I checked out your blog and followed the links to YouTube. What a great video. You are multi-talented and we are blessed with your input.

Keep it up and keep them coming...

Danny

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Thank you so much, Dan!. Although I bake bread 2-3 times a week not all of them end up on my blog or on my Youtube channel :) There are a lot of trials and errors behind and I am sure I am not the only one. On the other side, with every single bread, I learn more and I am able to identify early if I am on the right track to make the proper adjustments. Sometimes I do videos only for myself to review what went wrong.

I am happy to be part of this community and for sure I will come back.

Merry Christmas!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Stunning! At first I thought the decoration was made by scoring, that would have been a technical masterpiece. But the crumb for 40% rye, wow! Your dough seems to behave almost like normal wheat dough.

Happy Holidays!

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Thank you so much for your appreciation! I just sprinkled cocoa powder for the decoration over a stencil that my daughter use for Christmas cards. I am sure that an experienced painter/designer can make with just scoring a masterpiece decoration on bread. I wish I had these skills but I don't.

The secret for such an airy crumb is the strong flour with already developed gluten through autolyse. I also extended the fermentation to the maximum, I even thought I over fermented the dough. Luckily, in the end, it turned out perfect for my taste.

Enjoy the holidays!

Benito's picture
Benito

Denisa, wow wow wow. These are gorgeous, quite a gorgeous bake.  Stunning ear and beautiful crumb.  I’m going to look at your youtube channel but the quality of this one you posted is superb, very professional.

Benny

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Thank you so much, Benny! The ear on these loaves was like a little Christmas present for me :). Indeed, airy crumb and bread ears don't make a good marriage with rye bread, but if you sprinkle some love over, it can make a miracle.

The strong flour with gluten network already developed at the moment of the preferment addition was the secret in my recipe.

Denisa.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

These look very professional.

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Thank you!

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

40% Sourdough Rye has always been more of a "working bread" at my house (if that makes sense, haha!), but this rye is dressed up and going to the party! And with a crumb like that, what's not to celebrate? Love it.

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Bread party! If I cannot gather people in my house for these holidays, at least we make a party with bread loaves :) The dress code is a must no matter who's coming. Thank you so much for your nice comment!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

instructional video accompaniment.  As Dan states, 40% is a lovely sweet spot for these types of rye breads.

Alan

HungryShots's picture
HungryShots

Thank you so much, Alan!

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Here are my last few rye community bakes (#5-8 from top to bottom), veering towards a not-quite-deli-rye using home milled whole grains all at approximately 40% rye and 60 % neutral white whole wheat.  I started with dmsnyder's formula, but have been experimenting with a whole grain friendly cool low hydration rye starter instead of the multi stage rye sour and have skipped the glaze to streamline things for faster practice bakes, resulting in a somewhat simplified bread.  After seeing Alfanso's glazed beauties, I should attempt the glaze again, and it would be good to compare these with the multi-stage rye sour version in both flavor and form (oven spring, etc).  Most of these had a room temperature bulk fermentation followed by an overnight proof in the fridge that went directly in the pre-heated oven.  Due to schedule, one of them used a refrigerated bulk fermentation and a room temperature final proof, and it produced a bolder flavor.  All of these used an overnight saltolyse that delivers good pre-mix gluten development (similar to Dan's preference for pre-kneading) and were baked in a cloche.  I was inspired by Ilya's choice of lamination mixing and have followed suit: pizza shaping followed by pasting with the hydrated rye sour, rolling up and mixing with liberal use of the sprayer.  I've been happy with the crumb, but have still had fairly consistent blowouts due to the high percentage of rye.  I've seen mentions of a serrated knife, which might lend itself to more aggressive scoring than the usual razor bread lame.  I have been pushing the final proof to 1.5x or so in anticipation of oven spring, as with whole wheat bakes, but perhaps pushing the final proof further along to realize more of the final shape before baking will help reduce oven spring induced stress related blowouts.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Very nice Rye Breads. I’ve never been to a New York Rye Bakery, but I would expect to see breads that look much like yours.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

I was interested in pushing the 40% rye further and attempted my first 100% rye bake after picking up a new bag of rye berries to replenish my stock from the deli rye practice bakes.  I have been reading through Daniel Leader's Local Breads and liked the look of Denise Polzelbauer's family Volkernbrot, which uses a two stage rye sour build at 8 and 24 hours respectively, and a lot of coarse rye and rye chops in the final mix.  I tried to guesstimate all of this using a Mockmill 200 and kitchen sieves.  I baked it in a large Pullman pan instead of the two 9x5 pans it calls for.  The recipe also calls for a slow + low 1 1/2 - 2 hour bake at 375 F with a target final temperature of 190 F, which sounds low.  When I checked it at the 1 1/2 hour mark it was well above this at 208 F or so, but the loaf still feels very moist when slicing after 12 hours.  If anything, I think it could go longer next time as the bottom seems just a touch underdone.  Use of a long single Pullman pan may call for a longer and/or hotter bake.  My understanding is the flavor and loaf will continue to evolve over the next few days.  It has a very strong and rich flavor, although I don't have much familiarity with these loafs in general.  In any case it is an interesting departure from my whole wheat baking, with all of the gluten-centric practices that entails.  I posted additional detail in a blog post.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The seeded crust is perfect. I don’t think that can be improved upon.

You may find something interesting in THIS LINK. You have the option of leaving the top off with that method. The nice thing about BF/proofing in the pan is that the dough is not disturbed after it starts the bulk ferment.

THIS LINK deals specifically with Rye Bread in a pullman.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks for the links and reference to The Rye Baker.  I haven't come across many references discussing technique in rye baking, other than stir and scoop, so this might be an interesting read to help improve things.  Maybe 100% rye deserves its own CB at some point.  There seem to be at least a few "full time" rye bakers in the forum.  I'm equally drawn to the two extremes of the bread shaping spectrum (more so than the in-between): the organic free standing hearth loaves, and the perfectly geometric carefully portioned cuboid loaves from the Pullman pan like the ones you posted.  I also have a smaller Pullman, and thought about filling that one to the top to realize the full shape, but my intuition (right or wrong) was that the dense rye batter might not bake as well in such a tall shape.  The flavor has definitely evened out (to my liking) after 36 hours, but the bread knife does gum up slightly when slicing, which makes me think I should bake the next one a little longer.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

HeadUp, a good idea for any pullman bread, but especially rye is to remove from the pan once the loaf has set and bake with the bottom and both sides down on the shelf, turning it 3 separate times. It’s a great way to fully bake the loaf. It should avoid gumminess. 

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks for the tip.  I'll try that next time.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

This looks like a very satisfying loaf. Super moist, well aerated crumb, and those seeds! Great bake.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks.  I baked these with the Pullman lid on for the first hour or so thinking that might improve oven spring (if there is such a thing with rye) and removed it for the last half hour to dry things up.  I love seeds too.  Next time I will try to integrate them throughout for a proper Volkornbrot Mit Sonnenblumen!  This is definitely a good mid week bread -- very little to do but wait.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and for 100% rye, the open crumb (for rye) slices look to be surprisingly light vs. the heavy dense versions.

Alan 

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks Alan.   I used an aliquot jar to reach the 25 to 30 percent rise called for in the recipe, but it moved so quickly it probably hit 40% or more by the time I got it in the oven.  It does seem more aerated at the top than the bottom, and I'm curious about how this could be improved.  Perhaps a change in fermentation or hydration.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

To see the full compilation of all of my rye bakes see THIS LINK.

Bake #7

I wanted to explore adding whole wheat to Hamelman’s 40% Rye in the hopes that the bread would produce stronger braids. But that was not to be. 30% whole rye, 10% Hard Red Spring Wheat, and 60 white flour. The raw dough braided very well, better than last time. But the braids split open much more that the first attempt.

BTW - I didn’t care for the flavor of the newly introduced Hard Red Wheat. I much prefer the percentages and formula in Hamelman’s original formula. After 7 consecutive rye bakes, I whole heartedly agree with Another Girl that 40% rye is the sweet spot. No more, no less. For my taste 40% rye (100% extraction) is strong enough for me, but not too strong. 

Here’s proof that I post the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Looks can be deceiving.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

There is such beautiful symmetry to well done plaits, and this certainly qualifies.  It is possible that a braid needs a more flexible dough to hold together, and perhaps a 40% rye is not it.  Maybe why a challah bread can maintain cohesion and this may not be able to do so.

I think the post-bake looks fine even if you are disappointed.  And it will still make great bread for sandwiches, a slathering of this or that , and of course for me, toast. 

If you put this in a bakery window, you'd have a line of hungry folks queued up for loaf.

Alan

Abe's picture
Abe

of bread flour perhaps the opposite approach is needed. People often make the mistake of braiding challah too loose thinking when it expands it'll help keep the braids. Whereas when it comes to rye braiding more loose might actually help since it doesn't have the same extensibility. Allowing the smaller amount of oven spring just to expand a little all the while keeping the shape. Purely a theory! 

Benito's picture
Benito

I agree with Alain, you were born to braid Dan. 

Benny

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

You are a on a roll with the plaiting.  I'll have to try this at some point, perhaps to improve presentation of my gifted loaves.

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Since Hodgsen's Mill was bought out, I have not seen ANY rye flour on any store shelf in 2 geographic locations (Minnesota and Florida). Where is everyone sourcing their rye flour?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

the loss of Hodgson Mills, but  found a nice alternative.  Great River Mill in Wisconsin sells dark rye, an even finer grind than Hodgson.  I bought a 25 lb. bag, which has certainly one in handy for the CB as the last of my Hodgson was running out.

There may be other sizes available.  Their only sales outlet seems to be through Amazon, so if you have an aversion to buying through them, this rye is out.  I have a Prime membership so shipping was free and the bag cost ~ $35 US.  Delivery at the time was swift and boxed well.  All in all I'm quite pleased with finding them.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I see Bob's Red Mill products at various stores.  

Various types of rye flour are at www.nybakers.com

Organic dark rye flour is at  www.clnf.org for $5/5 lbs, and $21.25/25 lbs, not including shipping.

--

Be forewarned of the special definition of "dark rye flour" at NY Bakers -- it is not the same as "whole grain rye."

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Find my rye CB bakes here.

I've neglected my rye starter in the fridge for a while, since I have been using the white stiff starter recently. But I decided to revive it, and it took a little longer than I expected, so I accumulated a lot of fresh, but not very active discard. And I remembered that I recently saw Bread Code post a video about bread mainly made using discard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V3FyVzzVUI

So in case others have rye discard, I thought this would be interesting to share here.

So I adapted it a little bit, for example using seeds instead of wheat berries, but the process is so simple that there is not much to discuss. Here is my formula:

400 g discard/not very active starter

255 g water

255 g whole rye flour

15 g soaked and roughly chopped crystal rye malt

100 g linseeds

100 g sunflower seeds

8 g salt

 

Of note, soaking malted rye makes it much softer, and even just my food processor could roughly chop it with some water. I think I could crush it very finely with a pestle and mortar, for the next time I am making a scalded rye bread (like Borodinsky).

Fermented for 5 hours. Seeds must have absorbed a lot of water, so in the end the dough was much stiffer than in the beginning, and than in the video. So I shaped it into short logs to fit into my small bread pans, and proofed for around 2 hours. I also added some oats to the oiled pan, and on top of the bread. It only rose a little. I baked it with steam for 40 minutes, and then finished without steam for a short time. Then left to cool, and cut just now after a day for it to mature.


 

I was worried it might be too sour, but it isn't, very pleasant taste in my opinion, and seeds add a lot of flavour.

Benito's picture
Benito

Lovely looking loaf Ilya, I really like the amount of seeds that you’ve used.  I’m surprised it isn’t more sour tasting since you’ve used rye discard.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Benny! It has a tang to it, but not too strong. Maybe the seeds dilute the sourness... Or my discard wasn't very sour, since it was quite fresh mostly, and not very active in the recovery phase.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

May I have a slice? :-)

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Alan, I respectfully request a name change for these little gems. There's nothing "faux" about them.

The four baguettes in the photo were all from the same batch of dough, proofed and cold retarded in the same mass. They were ulimtately portioned, refrigerated for a couple more hours on the same tray and finally baked in two different ovens. The two on the left were baked in my standard oven while the two on the right were baked in a new countertop combi steam oven. The set-up in the conventional oven was pretty standard: baking stone on the second lowest rack and a cast iron skillet full of lava rocks on the second highest rack. One cup of boiling water was poured over the lava rocks when the dough was put in the oven. 

This is my second time baking bread in the combi steam oven. The first time I baked bread in it, I set steam for 100% and used the oven temp called for in the recipe. The bread cooked super fast (it was a boule) but came out great. Because I was making a bread with much higher surface area to volume ratio this time, I reduced the oven temp by 20°F to 450°F and reduced the steam to 80%. They were done in 15 minutes.

I think the results speak for themselves. 

 

Alas, I have not the talent of Alan and some others for the baguette. No spectacular bloom or grigne, but the formula did yield a lovely light open crumb – although you can see some tightness in the crumb on the darker baguettes because I fumbled the sticky dough when scaling the pieces. Despite my failings, the formula itself is superb. I mean, absolutely delicious with a light rye tang. Here, they are spread with my hand-churned butter and sprinkled with a little truffle salt that a friend told me about (thanks, Dan!). Sublime. Tomorrow, some cured meats will join the party.

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow, really nice baguettes AG.  The new combi steam oven seems to do a great job, love the colour of the crust on those two especially.  You achieved a very nice open crumb on your baguettes.  I guess this is the new in thing now to bake rye baguettes!

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Suprised that the conventional oven pair are so pale, but the Anova two have great color.  I'll assume that you are both happier and a tad more adept on this second bake in the combi.

This is my go-to rye bread formula, and has been a compliant servant to my oven for a few years now.  There's nothing that I don't like about it.

"Alas, I have not the talent of Alan and some others for the baguette."  Not to be in the same universe as the chap but what was it that Thomas Edison said?  10% inspiration, 90% perspiration.  Good luck, attentiveness and developed skill over time was my road to baggie success.  Scoring these beasts is a different ballgame than either batards or boules, and it takes a new learned touch to figure them out.  You already show the signs of understanding the "dynamics" of baguette scoring, mainly keeping the scores in their own lane both down the length of the baton as well as within close and consistent range of the prior score line.  Also going "cabo a rabo", head to tail, on the start and end of the scores.  But I will point out that there is too much overlap between scores.  Typically aim for somewhere around a 1/3 overlap.

But if you care enough about baking this shape, you will!  And it won't take all that long either.

What is the maximum baton length you can fit into the Anova?

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Deli ryes used to come out of my standard oven with a dark mahogany crust, but a year or year and a half ago, that changed. Looking at these two sets of loaves, I realize that something about the way I generate steam or the oven's ability to retain it has changed. (I'm pretty sure I haven't changed anything and the oven is almost 20 years old, so there ya go.)

The Anova cavity is about 16" wide, so 13-ish" would probably be max baton length. I ordered a 16" wide baking steel, but the seller says it won't arrive till the 11th. Yesterday's baguettes were baked on the bottom of a Challenger bread pan (the only appropriate surface I have that fits inside the Anova), so they were maybe about 9" or 10" long and placed closer together than I'd like. The learning curve on this oven is steeper than expected, and I'm not convinced the unit I received is 100% operationally sound, but I want to give it a good workout and make sure it's not just me being a dope. I can up my baguette game and figure how the darn oven works at the same time :-)

I do love the idea of rye baguettes and will keep these in the rotation. Thanks!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

As activity has slowed significantly these past two weeks, unless I hear otherwise and folks are still clamoring to leave it at the top of the postings, I'll ask Floyd to unpin the Rye from the top the Recent Posts section.  

As with all other CBs, this will remain forever active and monitored by anyone still receiving comments.  Please do continue to participate if you desire.

After a short break and some more "testing", I'll present another CB in the coming weeks.   I'd rather keep the focus of the CB close to my vest for now, as I still have some homework to do in prep for it.

Thanks to all who participated and hopefully helped ALL OF US to learn and grow.

Alan

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Thanks for taking this over, Allan. Danny boy did a great job building the community bakes into a premium part of this great club. Keep in mind that to short a break in between, may take away from the mystique. At least that's what Danny told me when I was bugging him to start up a new one. Smile. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Not exactly Deli Rye, but I thought rye aficionados might be interested in my yesterday's rye bake: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/67013/noblemans-bread-80-rye-seeds

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Since I went rogue (100% Whole Rye) on this one, you’ll have to follow THIS LINK to check it out.

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