The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Community Bake - NY Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye breads

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Community Bake - NY Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye breads

 The Eric Hanner Memorial Jewish Bakery Rye Bread Community Bake

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For those who wish to limit or disengage from the flood of email notifications associated with long threads such as these CBs produce, Dan had written up how to do so

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66354/tip-how-stop-email-notification-any-topic

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As many of you know, Dan has been at the helm of the Community Bakes since its inception, and was his own invention.  Along the way he created a community within the TFL community with smashing success.  Recently Dan asked if I was interested in taking the steering wheel for a while, feeling that he needed to step away for some time.  Rather than hosting, he’d rather assume the role of contributor.  Gladly! 

Suggesting 4 categories to explore for this CB, I asked for those interested to select one.  The overwhelming response was rye.  My goal was to find a few breads that were not demanding of extraordinary time, effort and particularly avoiding out of the ordinary ingredients or baking tools and hardware.  And all having a common theme.

Paul McCool suggested I consider the Eric Hanner Jewish Rye Bread.  Eric passed away unexpectedly 8 years ago this month.  From all accounts he was a liked and well respected participant in the community.  This CB is in memory of Eric.

I offer three differing Jewish Bakery/Deli style Rye Breads.  All provide unique experiences as far as how the dough will react during all phases.  All employ a 100% hydration preferment.

The first two breads have a link to the original post.  The third is my own interpretation as well as my experience and steps.

Eric Hanner employs what he refers to as a Sponge, It is composed of 26% rye, and 71.5% hydration.  If your experience is anything like mine, the dough will challenge the newly initiated Rye baker to a formidable sticky and difficult dough to manage.  It bakes up beautifully and has an extraordinary taste.

David Snyder uses a Rye Sour.  Built in three stages.  It is composed of 44% rye and 72% hydration.  Contrary to any reasonable expectation considering the elevated rye percentage, it does not exhibit any of the overly sticky qualities of the first dough.  I would consider this the closest of the three to a true NY Jewish bakery rye bread.

Alfanso’s is a faux Jewish Bakery Rye, for contrast and variety.  It uses a standard AP flour Levain.  It is composed of 25% rye and 73.5% hydration.  I treat the dough as I do for mostly every other bread that I make.  It is the most manageable of the three and the least traditional.  If you wish to use a Rye Levain instead, make the appropriate adjustments to the amount of AP and rye flours for the final mix.  Percentages will not need to be adjusted (unless you want), only the amounts at Final Mix time.

My blog post of the 3 formula write-ups are found here.

Notes:

  • All three breads call for a Medium Rye Flour.  Mine is also stone ground.
  • All three of my own entries will be found in this link and have been scaled at 1000g.
  • These can be made within a 2 day span or less:
  • Eric’s version is made with a 1 stage overnight sponge, but if you are an early riser, the entire process can be done in the course of a day, the first 8 hours awaiting the sponge to complete fermentation.
  • David’s requires the 3 stage rye sour, which will take a full day to accomplish.  However, for the sake of expediency, I’ve whittled that down to ~6 hours via a heating pad and maintaining a 90dF environment for the rye to ferment.  This may sacrifice some of the qualities a longer fermentation, but can also be done in a short day.  This version also uses a significant boost of IDY, hence the short period between mix and bake.
  • Alfanso’s requires a levain to be readied.  Mixing and fermentation are minimal, but the formula asks for an overnight retard.  Instead, a few hours of countertop proofing if you wish, although I’ve never done that.

Traditional Jewish Rye Bread “begs" the use of an ultra high gluten flour, I wanted to avoid requesting people to source something along the lines of a First Clear flour.  For the first two I use a supermarket brand bread flour that may be as high as 12.9% protein.  For the third I use my standard  King Arthur AP flour that has a stated protein of 11.7%, but to get a more optimal result I did add VWG.

You do not need an ultra high gluten flour to produce these.  Unfortunately if your only available flours are weaker than what I mention above, you may have to supplement the flour with something like a Vital Wheat Gluten to elevate the protein.  If you decide to do this, there is the long-way manual tool Pearson’s Square, which can be used to adjust protein percentages.  OR use this link to the Foodgeek VWG% calculator.

All three breads have caraway seeds added, as do many Jewish Rye breads.  You can eliminate these if you wish or supplement / replace them with a fennel seed, for instance.

A few references about rye flours:

The fine print...

As always, the CB is a place created for a collaborative effort, both to enhance one’s skills as well as to help others with their skills.  By no means are the formulae meant to be the be-all-andend-all of the CB.  Rather, they are a framework of three distinct ways to achieve a bread that meets the general criteria.  I encourage you to experiment and explore, to modify and to introduce to our CB participants your own experiences and versions.  And most of all, to learn and help all of us to better ourselves as bakers.  I also encourage you to find something you like, change one or many things about it and to make it your own!

And as Dan said:

All bakers of every skill level are invited to participate. Novice bakers are especially welcomed and plenty of assistance will be available for the asking. The Community Bakes are non-competitive events that are designed around the idea of sharing kitchens with like minded bakers around the world, "cyber style". To participate, simply photograph and document your bakes. You are free to use any formula and process you wish. Commercial Yeast, sourdough, or a combination of both are completely acceptable. Once the participants gets active, many bakers will post their formulas and methods. There will be many variations to choose from.

Here is a list of our past CBs. They remain active and are monitored by numerous users that are ready, willing, and able to help if assistance is needed. A quick browse of past CBs will provide an accurate picture of what these events are all about.

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Since many of the CBs grow quite large, it can become difficult to follow the progress of each individual baker. Things get very spread out. In an attempt to alleviate congestion and consolidate individual baker’s bread post, the following is suggested.

Links to baker’s BLOGs that have posted a compiled list of bakes for this CB

End note:  By no means do I consider myself a skilled rye baker.  This is my first experience baking Eric’s version and my third with David’s. My own version I bake with some frequency.

*For the original postings please click the links above.  My posting of the formula write-ups, click here

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

You guys! 

You're picking up speed with the frequency of these CB's! I have not yet even had time to ciabatta! That being said, I will try my hand at another rye bread, (anything N.Y. style is right up my alley!) Meanwhile some inspiration? One of my old bakes, that I blogged. This is my own tangzung rye built on, Ms. Rose levy Braumbums formula. 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

In an effort to combine all of my bakes in a single post, all bakes will be also published in a single post to my BLOG and can be SEEN HERE.

I went with Eric Hanner's formula, with a few adjustments. The hydrations was lowered to 70% and the mixing and kneading was altered in an attempt to preserve the gluten from the white flour. I am keen to the fact that rye is gluten deficient and requires special care. Another tidbit - the acids produced by the sourdough culture is extremely beneficial when a dough has a fair amount of rye.

  1. The idea was to mix all of the white flour in the final dough with all, but 5% of the remaining water. Commercial yeast and sugar was also added to this initial mix. A machine was used and the ingredients in the dough was originally incorporated, then allow to rest for 15-20 minutes. The dough was dry and somewhat stringy. BUT, after the rest the dough took on a more supple characteristic and mixing proceeded much nicer.
  2. After the first dough was mixed to develop the gluten, the levain was introduced. NOTE - almost all of the mixing was on slow speed and it took a while of mixing to develop the gluten in the final dough.
  3. Upon full integration of the levain, the final amount of water (bassinage) was mixed with the salt and slowly dripped into the mixer bowl. At completion the dough was supple and gluten was well developed. I think this had a lot to do with the ease of handling I experienced with this dough. The dough was able to be handled quite easily. Originally, I intended to bake in a pan, but the dough was so well behaved it was shaped and baked free form instead.

Taste -
In all honesty, the flavor was lack luster. The bread turned out fine but the complexity and strong flavor that rye brings to the table was not there, IMO. Next bake will use 35% Whole Rye

The dough produced a huge amount of gas and it may have been over proofed.

A word of caution -
My second bake just came out of the oven and it was more dark than I would like. The first bake used Caputo Manitoba (un-malted) and this latest bake used King Arthur bread flour, which is malted. Since the formula calls for 1.1% sugar, be careful when baking with a malted flour. You may want to reduce the oven temperature to be safe, or watch it closely.

BTW - the bread flour had plenty enough gluten to give strength to the rye dough. It is possible that developing the white flour first is a game changer for rye doughs.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I hope this won't be perceived as presumptuous, but everyone on TFL has been so generous with me that that I wanted to share my experience with Jewish/Deli/NY/Sour Rye, which has been my standard weekly bake for more than 20 years, so I finally feel qualified to contribute to those who have so kindly helped me. I started baking because I missed the deli-style ryes I loved as a kid. The first formula that was a "score" in my book was Greenstein's Sour Rye. Once I converted the volume measures to weights, it was a consistent winner. These days, I don't make it anymore because I don't have room for the specialty flours, but I made it every weekend for many years. Now I bake Hamelman's Forty Percent Caraway Rye bread which tastes very similar – better, imho – and uses flours that have other applications. 

In my experience, you can't get the *right* flavor by using less than 40% medium or whole rye flour. Similarly, you can't achieve the right flavor by mixing white rye in any percentage with AP or bread flour. If you want to use white rye, you won't get enough flavor unless you mix it with first clear flour and I don't know anyplace that has it in stock at present. A higher extraction rye flour (medium or whole) has sufficient flavor that it can be combined with AP. I think 60/40 is the perfect wheat to rye ratio for Jewish rye, and all the rye flour should be fermented. A levain or a traditional 3-stage sour will do the trick.

In terms of process, it's actually easy to do. If you're worried about a starch attack, don't. Do try to avoid over-mixing though. Mix the flours until you can feel some resistance, but don't go much beyond that; you're not going for full gluten development. This dough is more sticky than tacky but still quite manageable, especially with wet hands. It tends to be slack and spread out. TBH, it reminds me of clay. I used to have a problem with the sides of my ryes blowing out, so Jewish rye is the one bread I will walk right up to the edge of over-proofing. 

Other Jewish rye aficionados might disagree with some or all of this. Heaven knows there are much better bakers than me on this board, and I would love to hear from them because it could only make me a better baker. In the meantime, this is my two cents and it's based on more loaves than I could count. I hope someone finds it helpful.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Why not join in and bake along with us? We can use all the help we can get. You are welcomed to bake any formula you wish. Do you have a spreadsheet of baker’s percentages for your favorite rye?

Thanks for sharing...

Danny

OH! I have been successful well developing the gluten, BUT I haven’t yet gone past 35%. You have encouraged me to raise that to 50. I am not getting the flavor I had hoped for with a lower percentage of rye.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Once you start getting into the 50%+ rye range, I think you might be inching out of Jewish rye territory which is cool, especially if you really like the rye flavor. I've never seen a deli rye formula that goes that high, but I'd be very interested in how it comes out. If I were inclined to try 50%, here are some things I'd keep in mind: Be sure to ferment all of the rye flour to keep the amylase enzymes in check. Be even more mindful of your mix because the more rye you add, the more you need to watch out for those pesky pentosans that can make your dough very sticky. You might need more water, too. Finally, at 50% rye, your dough will probably be prone to spreading and might need some support. I don't recall if you said which rye flour you used, but I might suggest that if you are looking for more rye flavor, you could simply use whole rye in place of some of the medium rye or use medium rye in place of some of the white rye. Rye is very flavorful, so it might not take as much as you think. Whichever way you go, I'm looking forward to seeing your results! Maybe I'll try it myself. That's what Community Bake is all about, right?

These photos are dated 2016 and they look like Greenstein's formula. (I think the David Snyder formula posted in this CB is based on Greenstein and my weight conversions are probably similar.) I can't find any photos of the Hamelman 40% rye, but I'll try to bake some this weekend.

–AG

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am using home milled whole rye. Truth be told, I am not a fan of the flavor or texture of high percentages of rye, but I enjoy the challenge of new breads, learning together with other like-minded bakers, and participating in the Community Bakes.

I encourage you to join in and actively participate! Your experience with rye will benefit the gang.

Your bread is gorgeous!

Danny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Well stated.  As the lead post says, the purpose of the CB is to learn, share, and help others.  Yes, if you've been baking these types of rye breads for 20 or more years, then you are likely to be the longest in the tooth practitioner of the remainder of us.  And we have a lot to learn from your experiences, good as well as any that went south.

Regardless of which rye you have here, it looks great and certainly seems within the parameters of what I've baked so far (except for my pesky rogue version I so love love!).

alan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I have setup Hamelman's 40% Rye in my spreadsheet and have a few questions.

  1. Since I think you are using whole (100% extraction) rye, have you increased the hydration? His original is 68%.
  2. Hamelman calls for a 5% sour starter in the levain. That sounds super low @ 1 to 20. Is that what you are doing?

How does my spreadsheet look to you?
OH! Are you aware that Hamelman gives the Commercial Yeast the Baker's Percentages in the Total Dough for Fresh Yeast? To convert to IDY multiply the percentage by 0.33. It converts to 0.4125%. Pardon me if you already know that. It is very easy to miss.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Hamelman inoculates this formula with a small amount of rye sour, but there is a 14-16 hour ripening window to make up for it. It develops a nice flavor. Mine has a 70% hydration and I'm not sure why that is. Probably because when I made my spreadsheet, I used the homebaker's column and converted ounces to grams, so maybe there was a rounding error or something. (Let's just say I'm more of a language arts person and didn't pick up on the trick of moving the decimal point until pretty late in the game, haha!).  On the other hand, the difference is probably not perceptible in terms of the eating experience. I think you can safely up the hydration a bit if you'd like.

Next time I make this, I'm trying your technique of developing the white flour gluten separately.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Before the CB bake formulas were announced on Monday, I had a practice of rye last weekend to find out my weaknesses. I chose Hamelman's Three Stage 70 Percent Sourdough Rye. My write-up is here: 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66504/test-run-3-stage-rye-sourdough

I thought to share my experience for those new to high per-cent rye like me.

Cheers,

Gavin.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and good looking loaf.  

I was trying to avoid asking for extraordinary activities, tools or time for this bake.  But the more the merrier to add to the CB.  

The Detmolder method certainly increased the extended time as well as specific temperature control to produce a preferment, and the 24-48 hour window before slicing was also outside of my original scope.  However, certainly a welcome addition to the learning and exposure in the CB.  It isn't about what I post, as that is merely a framework to spark an idea, either work from or to jumpstart anyone's own selection.

alan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The video below shows a dough that consist of 35% home milled whole rye / 65% KABF. So far 2 rye bakes have produced a dough of similar characteristics. 

I believe it handles so well because -

  • The starter is a mature rye sour (maintained with 100% whole rye)
  • The rye flour is fermented with the rye sour for 10-12 hr
  • All of the white flour is thoroughly kneaded into a well developed dough before the rye levain is introduced
  • Salt is added last after the white flour/rye levain dough comes together

Use THIS LINK for best viewing.

I have limited experience with Rye. But the procedure I’m using seems to work well. These dough handle nicely and can be easily shaped.

Danny

Benito's picture
Benito

I like your idea of developing the gluten before adding the rye, it seems to really make the dough easier to work with.  Good work and great share Dan.

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I know you mention whole grain, but asking as both your handling experience as well as the color of your dough are significantly different than what I've experienced with Eric's, David's and now Varda's (although Varda's was the easiest to handle coming out of the mixer).  Your mix is handling closer to my own version, and far removed from the other three I've baked so far.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am milling organic rye berries

albacore's picture
albacore

Danny, are you sifting at all or is it whole grain?

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I sifted for both bakes. Bake #2 will be posted shortly. I used a 30 & 50 mesh.

The first bake only used the flour that pasted through both screens. But I found the flavor bland and considered the possibility that the middlings might increase the flavor.

The second bake used all of the middlings (#30 screen) and the large particles of bran (50 mesh) were omitted. It seems that rye in large percentages may not be a favorite of mine.

In both cases though, the dough was a joy to handle. I may try 50/50 (rye/white flour) and see how that goes.

albacore's picture
albacore

Danny do you suffer from a dry and sometimes crumbly crumb with rye?

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I was just exploring Rus Brot's recipes for my next rye bake, and found (again) his table about bread defects, and their causes and solutions (http://brotgost.blogspot.com/2019/10/defects.html). One of them for rye bread is "Dry and crumbly crumb", and I remembered a couple of bakers here had these issues. So, according to him potential reasons are "Excessive acidity of the dough, low hydration or low diastatic activity of the four", and the solutions are, obviously,  "Lower dough acidity by shorter fermentation and higher amount of yeast, changing the flour, or increasing the hydration".

mwilson's picture
mwilson

I too was interested in this phenomena. My singular rye bake was moist, very much so, and actually a tad sticky.

The reason I get this idea about acidity is because the same phenomena can be observed in the making of panettone, of which I have made hundreds...

Indeed, when the acidity is too high, the crumb of the panettone has dry quality even though it is very enriched. It crumbles and stales fast. I have witnessed this a number of times.

Knowing this, I have made efforts to eliminate the problem and my most recent panettone have faired better but alas the never-ending journey toward perfection continues...

It is almost as if the high acidity blocks a good fermentation (because the starting pH is too low). And without yet fully grasping the chemistry, this ‘high acidity’ has an overt oxidative effect.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Yep, moist and sticky means not enough acidity. Or a few other options: too much flour in the scald (if it's a scalded rye bread), high diastatic activity of the flour, or fermentation at wrong (low) temperature, like room temperature.

His table is focused more on rye breads, but I imagine some similarities can be found with other types. I guess panettone is such a special/challenging bake, that managing fermentation just right is crucial, and some similar issues can arise.

albacore's picture
albacore

Thanks  for the info, Ilya. My last bake, which I published here, was made with 40% Shipton Mill type 997 rye flour and didn't have a dry crumb. I'll have to try the recipe again with my Mockmilled rye and see if the dryness reappears.

We've nearly finished the 2nd loaf now and although I was pretty pleased with the bake three faults have come to light:

  • crust was a bit thick and starting to get coloured on the bottom - I'd started the bake at 250C for 5 mins, then 200C. I would reduce the 250 to 230 next time
  • loaves went stale quite quickly, which surprised me - perhaps a feature of the IDY addition?
  • I would have liked a bit more sourness - next time I will extend the duration of the 3rd sour build (Vollsauer) to reduce the final pH a bit (was in spec though at 4.09).

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Going back to Rus Brot's defect page, thick and dry crust in rye bread is not from too high heat, but too long time at low heat. As a solution, apart from changing the baking times, wet the surface of the dough right after baking (and I would add, just before too). But I want to note, in his terminology rye bread will be (nearly) all rye flour. 40% rye is not quite there.

For more sourness, you should get more acids if you ferment at lower temperature, by the way. And I think you can safely skip the IDY, it'll take longer, but will be more sour and flavourful.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Came across Varda's version yesterday morning, and couldn't resist.  The one unusual instruction was to turn the oven off after 1 minute of steaming, and then re-fire it back up 6 minutes later, dropping from 500dF to 430dF for the remainder of the bake.  Unclear whether the steaming trays should have been removed at the 1 minute mark, when re-firing the oven or when.  So I allowed for15 total minutes prior to remove the steam and rotating the loaf.

This version is now the first where I've breached the 50% rye mark (55%, 11% higher than David's) for total flours, and also comes in at the lowest hydration of my 4 bakes, albeit by a single percent at 70%.  It is also the first of the four I've baked where the preferment is below 100% hydration, coming in at 80%.

Now that I have the "support the sides" technique during proofing as well as my bread knife for scoring, the process has become somewhat standardized and easier.

 

 

 Although both this, as well as the David's version, were scaled to 750g each, there is a clear difference in the loft as well as the width of the two.  Varda's is more compact on both counts.  There doesn't seem to be much of a delta on the crumb between the two.

As I baked this late last night, and just cut into it, I've yet to taste it - too early in the day for breakfast.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

?

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

hahaha, you made my day! Thanks!

varda's picture
varda

Alfanso, 

Thank you for letting me know about this bake.  It looks just fantastic - shiny crust, perfect crumb.  And makes me miss this bread which we stopped making a couple of years ago. 

The community bake sounds like a great idea, with lots of great baking!

Varda  

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

You have once again reached the pinnacle of artisanal bread baking. Kudos!! 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Pretty breads, Alan!

I have only been baking Jewish Sour Rye for about 13 years, so AG (not "Attorney General," thankfully!) has seniority.

FYI, a number of years ago, some of us worked with Floyd to put together a TFL Handbook. Note the link in the top of the page menu. I don't know if anyone even notices this resource anymore, but it has good, basic information for new bakers. I bring it up here and now because there is a little section specifically on baking with rye flour that might interest some. Here's a link: Rye Flour.

I'm going to feed my rye sour now.

Happy baking!

David

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I have that link posted in the lead comment way at the top.

alan

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Hello, friends.

 I have been having trouble sourcing rye flour locally for quite some time now. Since that Hodgson mill is no longer making rye flour, what is everyone using? Local? internet? Arrow mill, Bob's Red mill? I looked around today and found no rye flour to be had.

 That being said, come to learn the Rose Levy  Beranbaum formula is less than 1% rye!  Fear, not my friends. I have an idea! We will use the same   Beranbaum, procedure, except the bread flour in the sponge will be changed out for rye. Additionally, the hydration will be bumped up to 70%, from the low 60'S, to compensate for the addition of the more thirsty rye flour. 

Levy's" Jewish Rye Bread

Sponge

3/4 cup (4 ounces, 117 grams) bread flour (King Arthur all purpose)

3/4 cup (3.3 ounces, 95 grams) rye flour (Dark rye)

1/2 teaspoon (1.6 grams) instant yeast

1 1/2 tablespoons (0.6 ounces, 18.7 grams) sugar

1/2 tablespoon (10.5 grams) barley malt syrup / ( Scant 1/2Tbs. Molasses)

1 1/2 cups (12.5 ounces, 354 grams) water, at room temperature

 

Flour Mixture

2 1/4 cups (12.5 ounces, 351 grams) bread flour

1/2 plus 1/8 teaspoon (2 grams) instant yeast

2 tablespoons (0.5 ounces, 14 grams) caraway seeds

1/2 tablespoon (0.3 ounces, 10.5 grams) salt

 

Dough and Baking

1/2 tablespoon (0.25 ounces, 6.7 grams) vegetable oil

about 2 teaspoons (about 0.5 ounces, 16 grams) cornmeal for sprinkling

 

Make the sponge: Combine sponge ingredients in a large or mixer bowl and whisk until very smooth. Set it aside.

 

Make the flour mixture and cover the sponge: In a separate large bowl, whisk together the flour mixture and gently scoop it over the sponge to cover it completely. Cover the bowl tightly with plastic wrap and allow it to ferment for 1 to 4 hours at room temperature. (The sponge will bubble through the flour mixture in places.)

 

Mix the dough Add the oil and mix with the dough hook on low speed for about 1 minute, until the flour is moistened enough to form a rough dough. then raise the speed to medium and mix it for 10 minutes. The dough should be very smooth and elastic, and it should jump back when pressed with a fingertip; if it is sticky, turn it out on a counter and knead in a little extra flour.

 

Let the dough rise: Place the dough in a large container or bowl, lightly oiled. Oil the top of the dough as well. Allow the dough to rise until doubled, 1 1/2 to 2 hours. Let the dough fall out on to a lightly floured counter, press it down gently, fold or form it back into a square-ish ball and allow it to rise a second time, back in the bowl covered with plastic wrap for about 45 minutes.

 

Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured counter and gently press it down again. Round it into a ball and set it on a cornmeal sprinkled baking sheet, or on a cornmeal-covered piece of parchment paper on the bottom of La Cloche. Cover it with oiled plastic wrap and let it rise until almost doubled, about 1 hour to 1 hour 15 minutes.

 

Preheat the oven to 450°F an hour ahead of time. On a shelf at the lowest level, place a baking sheet or bread stone. Unless you're using La Cloche, place a cast-iron skillet or sheet pan on the floor of the oven (or the bottom shelf) to preheat.

 

Slash and bake the bread: With a sharp knife or single-edged razor blade, make 1/4- to 1/2-inch-deep slashes in the top of the dough. Put it in the oven; if you're using La Cloche, cover it with a preheated top dome. Otherwise, toss1/2 cup of ice cubes into the pan beneath and immediately shut the door. Bake for 15 minutes, lower the temperature to 400°F and continue baking for 30 to 40 minutes or until the bread is golden brown and a skewer inserted into the middle comes out clean.

 

Cool the bread on a wire rack.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Great River Organic Milling Rye in 25 lb. bags.  ~$35 on Amazon. 

Softer and smoother than Hodgson Mills, so far I like it a lot.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

To view a compilation of all Rye bakes during the CB - CLICK HERE

In an attempt to increase the flavor Eric’s formula was tweaked to 35% home milled whole rye (large bran omitted). For both bakes the hydration was lowered to 70%, but for the increased rye, more water would have been nicer.

ifs201's picture
ifs201

It's hard to pick which of these three wonderful recipes to try first, but I'm going to start with Eric's this weekend and I'll report back. Thanks for posting!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Any recommendations how to replace medium rye with a mix of whole and light rye? Just 1:1 mix? Absence of standards for rye is a bit annoying, and no ash content provided by the miller either...

alfanso's picture
alfanso

with a 12k bag of what I thought was medium rye.  Turns out the label on a second viewing says stone ground dark rye.  So what I've been posting are all with a dark rye, which I think is whole rye.  From where I stand, my stone ground dark rye works just fine.  So should yours.

alan

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Awesome, thanks. I did have that thought of just using whole rye, since I like the flavour. But was also curious what this Deli Rye thing is all about, and thought maybe using medium rye is important, since it's used in all three suggested recipes.

Benito's picture
Benito

All I have is whole stone ground rye so that is what I’m going to use as well Ilya.  I’ve fed my starter and will make the rye sour for overnight fermentation.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Nice, looking forward to your bake! I'll probably plan something for Saturday, have work tomorrow, so didn't start today. Which formula are you using?

Benito's picture
Benito

I will soon start the rye sour for Eric’s bake, fingers crossed it will be alright.  My first bake of anything is always a learning experience and seldom comes out that well LOL.  I’ll follow Dan’s procedures they make sense to me.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I have to ask. Was there some kind of falling out between the fresh loaf & Mr.  Stanley Ginsberg? I met Stanley here many years ago and we had more than a few private chats. I went on to bake more than a few recipes from the Rye baker book. (Also some from Norm & Stans collaboration book.)

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Well, now she's done it.  Another Girl was waxing poetic about this bread the other day.  And...you know the rest.  Somewhat my M.O. around these parts.

Unusual in that it is an 83% hydration (why 83?) rye sour/levain/sponge/whatever in a 40% / 40% rye bread.  40% prefermented flour, all rye.  And 40% rye flour overall.  So far this is the lowest overall hydration rye I've made, 68%.

Every step of the way went along just dandy.  There is a 0.42% IDY involved, so the total BF was a mere hour with another hour dedicated to proof.  460dF with steam for 15 minutes, 440dF after until done.  My bake was 30 minutes with an additional 3 minutes of venting, oven off.

Just out of the oven so it won't be sliced until breakfast time tomorrow.  It came out of the oven looking as if it were ready for the State Fair.

Crumb shot added...

750g x 1 loaf

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

You guys are so impressive how you turn out great breads the first time you try a new formula. Takes me about 8 tries to get it right, haha! I'm anxious to hear how you like it compared to the others you've made. For me, this bread is so evocative of a time and place. I hope you enjoy it!

I hope to squeeze in a bake this weekend. Your iteration of Varda's corn rye is very tempting...

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Alan and AG, do you think the CY could be removed and produce a rye that is equal or better? Al mentioned “a quick rise”.

How did you like the 68% hydration? Would you change that in a future bake?

A word of caution for the Baker’s Percentages in Hamelman’s book, “Bread”.
0.42% CY - I am working on setting up Hamelman’s 40% Rye in my spreadsheet. It looks like you caught one of the things about Jeffrey’s book that throws me for a loop every time I use his formulas from his book. He shows 1.25% yeast in his Baker’s Percentages for the total dough. BUT, that 1.25% applies for fresh yeast. His formulas are focused towards the professional. So fresh yeast must be converted to IDY (approximately 3 to 1). The rough conversion I use is 1.25 x 0.33 = 4.125.

Benito's picture
Benito

That looks amazing Alan.  I have the same question and asked Dan that yesterday, do we need the CY?  We are using rye sours that are known to be so potent, what is the purpose of the CY.  Wouldn’t these dough ferment rapidly without them?  There must be a reason.  Does it need to rapidly ferment to avoid the high amylase from the rye causing the crumb to be too gummy?  Is the concern that the high acid from the rye sour causing proteolysis?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I second this question. I think it's probably just to speed things up...

alfanso's picture
alfanso

As the book is written to produce commercial sized amounts of dough, he seems to mostly call for fresh yeast.  I think that occasionally he does ask for IDY or ADY, but without leafing through the book right now I'm only guessing.

Dan - you've misplaced the decimal on your notation.  The amount is actually 0.415.  Using 4% of yeast on this bread, the BF would be done in 6 minutes rather than 60 ;-) .

When it comes to IDY or some other ingredients, I'm not a purist.  And I have zero issues with allowing my doughs to be "tainted" by a lesser ingredient or process.  We've been fortunate enough to have always lived in cities where the water supply was top notch and I've never used anything other than tap water.  Morton's or Diamond Kosher salt rather than sea salt, etc.  But that's just me.  

It's the old time & temperature thing.  If you want something to happen faster raise the temperature or PFF%.  Slower - lower the temperature, PFF% and/or drop the IDY - which I'm certain can be done on any of these breads.  For this bread, Mr. Hamelman is using a whopping 40% rye PFF, hence a short window to BF. 

I'm an impatient gnome, especially with any dough that takes more than about 2-3 hours to BF, so I'll opt for what's behind Door #2.  This dough slightly less than doubled in my 1 hour window.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

"Bulk fermentation time decreases as the rye percentage increases. One reason for this is that in rye breads there is little of the gas-trapping properties present in wheat gluten, so lengthy bulk fermentation will not improve dough volume and crumb structure. Further, there is little need to have a lengthy fermentation in order to develop flavor in rye breads. The incorporation of nicely ripened sourdough into the dough injects it with substantial flavor. Lengthy bulk fermentation has the tendency to over-acidify the dough, resulting in bread with an unpleasantly sour flavor. Therefore, as the percentage of rye in a formula increases, there is a corresponding decrease in fermentation time." Later, under the Final Fermentation heading, he mentions that doughs leavened only with sourdough will take longer, so it would seem that if you want to skip the CY, you can.

I am personally okay with spiking doughs with commercial yeast, especially in a case like this where using only sd might be detrimental to the flavor. But I've been known to spike a dough with a few grains of commercial yeast when it suits my production schedule, too. My unsophisticated palate can't detect it in small amounts.

The crumb on your bread looks great, Alan! I'm interested in changing rye flours because my loaves have been coming out with a silvery crust ever since I started using KAF whole rye. I miss the mahogany crust your bread has. (Plus KAF rye comes in 3 lb bags and costs an unholy fortune -- even after they dropped the price $2 a bag.) What are you using?

–AG

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Hodgson Mills stoneground rye, buying it directly from the mill via parcel post.  They ceased selling the product as a retail item about two years ago, apparently shortly after the company was sold (grr-conglomerates!).  

A few months ago I found the Great River Organic Milling Company which sells a finer milled version of the stone ground rye flour, and bought a 25lb. bag for ~US $35.  The bag was shipped inside of a sturdy cardboard box and arrived two or three days later.  I really like this flour so far, having only broken into it at the timely start of this CB.  Just as the last of my Hodgson supply ran out.**

Their only purchase option is through Amazon, even if you go directly to their own website.  From these early test runs, I have no reservations recommending this product.

KA may, may sell a superior product.  But beyond their KAAP flour, which I can buy for a pretty cheap amount, I can't be bothered paying their upscale prices.  In general, I'm more of a supermarket Pillsbury/Gold Medal kinda goofball.  I only buy the KA because I can get it for a competitive price, sometimes in 12 or 25 lb. bags at Costco.

** One can also buy rye flour from those open bins at some larger supermarkets.  But #1 for the most part where I live now they mostly don't exist, and #2 - in the era of Covid I doubt may of those bins are even available anymore.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Was waiting for the crumb - great looking loaf!

I was wondering where you got the formula? Did Another Girl post it somewhere? I found Hamelman's recipe write up by Eric here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8450/40-rye-hamelman - and it's 100% hydration preferement. So wondering why the difference.

Interestingly, here it's different again - even lower hydration preferment, and not all rye flour in it: https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/jeffreys-sourdough-rye-bread-recipe?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=youtube

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

In his book Bread, the formula is listed as an 83% hydration levain.  2nd edition, pg. 208.  When I click on the link in Eric's post it takes me to the first edition of the book.  The formula may have been reworked for the 2nd edition.  Eric's baking temperatures are also not the same.  The 2nd edition of the book was not published unto 2013, Eric posted his version in 2008. 

As far as the KA website formula, this wouldn't be the first time there was a discrepancy between the book and the posted version.  I don't know why.  The big however! - There's nothing on the posted version to indicate that it is the same formula as the 40% Caraway Rye in the book.  The posted version is not the same.  The amount of rye on the website comes in at something like 65% of the total flour.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

OK, thank you! Messy business, comparing different versions of the "same" recipe.

The technique for the recipe is inspired by Jeffrey Hamelman's book Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes. 

Right, that's sufficiently vague to get away with any change I suppose!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Beautiful Crumb... and a nice slice profile.

From all indications of the bakes thus far, I don’t see why we couldn’t go 50% rye.

As a multitude of bakers focus on the same type of bread and share their variations and experiences, knowledge greatly increases. OR, one baker could go it alone and bake 50 or so continuous breads. Collaboration can’t be beat!

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful crumb Alan, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a poor crumb on any of your baking, so consistent you are!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

If I could use only one word to describe your baking Alan, that word would have to be consistent. 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

 i have just posted  my  CB rye 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66572/caputo-integrale-dark-rye-and-stout 

I hope i've done this correctly

regards Derek

Benito's picture
Benito

How are you guys doing final proof, in a banneton, on a couche with support?  I have my dough in bulk now so wondering what you guys did.  Will this stick like crazy or not so much?

Also are you baking in a dutch oven for steam?  Eric’s formula calls for 10 mins steam then the rest of the bake without steam all at 370ºF. 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and why I wrote it up as 100 degrees hotter.  

My experience with all 4 of these doughs (my own version excluded) is that these are all quite sticky, including at the proofing stage.  As I don't use bannetons (or dutch ovens), I wouldn't want to take a chance with my couche.  I proof directly on parchment with the sides supported as in my "companion" blog.  

OTOH, Dan's experience is that the dough has not been sticky at all!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

If you want to proof rye in a banneton or a couche, just have to be very generous with dusting flour (or proof on paper, indeed).

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Ilya, having never baked anything with this much rye in it I wasn’t sure what to expect.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks for responding so quickly Alan.  The 370ºF seemed more like a cake temperature than a bread temperature so glad I asked.  

I will do final proof on parchment supported by something I’ll have to find in my apartment.

Also did you do dutch oven baking or baking stone?  I would think that dutch oven should work since I will shape as a batard so it is the right shape and it would simplify the baking.

Benny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Oh, and for the temperature, rye likes a very high heat in the beginning, lowered after 10 min or so.

Btw, some interesting comments from Jeffrey Hamelman in this video, might want to have a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhZGJW1F_9Q

alfanso's picture
alfanso

in comparison to a professional oven WRT maintaining oven temp when the door is opened.  I have a 3/4 inch thick full size granite slab as my baking deck which is a wonderful heat sink and keeps the oven from losing too much temp when the door is open.  I also re-fire the oven back to temp after each time I open the door for any more than few seconds.  This ensures that it quickly returns to desired temp from any drift.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

My Dutch Oven is a likely home to a family of wayward spiders way in the back of my cabinet somewhere.

When I was searching for side supports for the proofing stage, I pulled out two boxes of Kosher salt from the pantry.  Each weighing 3 lbs. they are quite the sturdy fix.  For more than one loaf, I've used something like a rolling pin under the parchment and between the loaves.  It helps maintain the distance or any spreading as well as side wall support.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

... but I usually proof and bake on parchment sprinkled with semolina (looks like cornmeal and seems to burn less). I do support the sides with rolled up towels. Ilya's right, you can totally use a banneton if you like.

I recently started baking these in long Emile Henry bakers, but until a few months ago, I put them on a stone and added steam. For steam, I use a cast iron pan filled with lava rocks. Not sure I love the loaf pans for these loaves, but they're more convenient. I might go back to hearth-baking these.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks, I’ll take note of that for next time.  I placed the shaped dough on parchment paper, I hope it doesn’t stick to that without the semolina.  It is being supported underneath by the couche and the sides by a bottle of wine and a couple of boxes.  Waiting for the oven to pre-heat and I will bake it in a dutch oven.  Fingers crossed.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

The parchment will come right off after after it bakes a bit. I usually remove it when I open up the oven (or baker) to vent the steam. I used to use semolina back when I loaded it into the oven with a peel. These days, I do it for aesthetic reasons more than anything else. Traditional Jewish Rye had cornmeal on the bottom.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

that initially sticks after proofing, you'll just tear the dough.  I agree with AG, at oven venting time, the parchment will easily peel off the dough.

Benito's picture
Benito

This is the link to my Rye CB bakes in my blog.

 

This is my first bake of rye at this percentage, prior to this I have only used 5-10% in my sourdough breads.  I’ve followed Eric’s original recipe but followed Dan’s procedure building the gluten before adding the levain, salt and holdout water.

 

The crust is soft after it cools and will slice better the next day. If you need bread that will stand a few days, this mix is good for mailing across the country. Sealed in a plastic bag after cooling, this rye will be great 4-5 days later and freezes very well.

 

For one loaf

 

Rye Sour

50g Active Rye starter

137.5 g Rye (Whole or White Rye)

137.5 g water

Mix and set at room temp overnight. (If this stage will longer than 8 hours I suggest refrigerating after 3 hours and warming to room temp before proceeding)

 

 

Final Dough:

All Rye Sour 163 g of rye total so 29% rye

242g water (consider holding back some water say 22 g or so) hydration 73%

394g bread flour

½  Tablespoon sugar

½  teaspoon instant yeast

11g Sea Salt

 

(Total flour 557 g)

 

Build the rye sour overnight.

 

Mix bread flour, water (minus holdout water), yeast and sugar using a mixer.  Once incorporated let rest for 15 mins.  This is a stiff dough.  Then mix on low speed to build gluten.

Once gluten well developed add levain mixing again until well incorporated and gluten well developed.  Then add the salt and holdout water gradually and again mix until well developed.

Transfer the dough to a well oiled bowl and continue bulk fermentation 80ºF for about 1 hour or until the dough has at least doubled.

Once bulk is complete and the dough has at least doubled pre-heat the oven to 500ºF with the dutch oven inside.

Dust the surface of the dough and the countertop with flour and release the dough onto the countertop.  Degas the dough by patting it down with the heel of your hand.  Shape into a batard.

Transfer the batard to your final proofing device.  I used a cookie tray with bottles of wine on either side, then my couche and then a sheet of parchment paper.  I placed the dough seem side down onto the parchment supporting the sides of the dough.  I brushed the surface with water and put poppyseeds on the outside of the dough.  

alfanso's picture
alfanso

A beautiful rendering, and looking forward to the crumb and taste test.  This was the first of the CB breads that I tried/tested in advance of the CB itself, and was completely enamored with its flavor, especially for a relative low rye percentage.  Poppy seeds add a beautiful finish and contrast to the bread.

alan

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Alan, I’m looking forward to slicing it tomorrow, I’m guessing I do need to wait that long?  I haven’t had rye bread in many years and never a sourdough leavened one to my knowledge so I hope I like this.  It is a bit crazy how fast this is to make.  Hopefully poppyseeds taste good with rye, no idea but as you know I now like to put seeds on bread.

Benny

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

...like all your loaves! I really hope you enjoy it. This is a low percentage rye loaf. You can slice it as soon as it cools. Deli sandwiches for lunch today!

Benito's picture
Benito

Kind of you to say, but is it too soon to slice into a rye bread or it that just for rye breads with significantly more rye in them?

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

can be cooled and eaten the same as wheat breads. Upwards of 60%, the resting time goes up to as much as 48 hours for 100% rye breads.

Benito's picture
Benito

Ah that is good to know thanks so much AG!!

Benito's picture
Benito

I’m quite pleased with my first bake of Eric’s Rye.  The crust wasn’t too thick and had a nice crisp crunch.  The crumb was relatively light, yet moist without being gummy at all.  It had a nice mild rye tang and I’m glad I went with the poppyseeds rather than the more common caraway seeds as they aren’t my favourite.  I think I like rye more without the caraway component.  I will keep this in my rotation of baking especially given how super fast it is to make.  I can’t believe it started a bedtime and was done early morning!

I want to thank Dan for his suggestion to fully develop the gluten before adding the rye sour.  I suspect that contributed greatly to the success of this loaf for me.

The bread is great for a sandwich and particularly good with some Eataly roast pork.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Well done doc! You knocked this one out of the park...

Gotta’ luv the crumb.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Dan, a lot of that loaf’s success is related to your suggestion to fully develop the gluten before adding the rye sour.  So thank you for suggesting I do that.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you David.

Benny

ifs201's picture
ifs201

Those look wonderful Benny! I'm baking mine tonight and hope they come out half as well.

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Ilene, I hope you’re well.  I’m sure yours will be fabulous.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Very nice loaf Benny. Cheers

Benito's picture
Benito

Thanks Gavin!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

This loaf is show quality! No further experimentation needed! You have reached Rye bread nirvana! Rejoice! 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Aww thanks Will, I think you’re being generous but I appreciate it a lot.  Looking forward to your rye bakes.

Benny

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Lots of information sharing and learning going on. All to the good! And some nice looking ryes are happening.

At the moment, my rye breads are proofing. I think they need another half hour or so. My last bake was a bit under-proofed, I think. This is only my second bake using this particular First Clear flour from Severson Farms. It is a bit coarser and a bit darker than the King Arthur First Clear with which I am more familiar, so I'll still in negotiations with it. It does have a really nice flavor.

FYI, I proof on parchment with a fold in the middle to keep the loaves separate. The sides are supported with rolled up kitchen towels.  I bake on the parchment, transferred to a pre-heated baking stone.

I'll post my baked loaves when they have been baked.

David

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

... but you taught me how to make rye bread (and so many others) and I just have to say thank you. There are probably hundreds of bakers like me who pored over your posts but never posted themselves. In my mind, you kind of *are* TFL.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thank you for the kind words. I learned a lot from TFL members when I was just starting to bake bread again. I feel that I'm paying back and hope others who learned something from me will do the same. (I think they are!)

David

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Didn't I pay for your lunch last time we met?  Or is it the other way around?  I'm so confused.

Yes, how true about paying back, and what comes around goes around.  It was your Gosselin levain and SJSD that weaned me off IDY and helped create the monster that I became, Dr. Frankensnyder ;-) .  It was also your Bouabsa that led me to my first successful IDY.

Hopefully I've helped inspire others who have come into the fold and stayed around as well.

As I mentioned at the top - TFL is a community.  And Dan's CBs created a community within a community. 

alan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

My rye bakes produce a somewhat dry crumb. I am under the impression that it is characteristic of rye. Is it possible to get a more moist crumb, and if so, how?

Has anyone experienced oil in a rye dough?

Next Question -
Caraway is too strong and the flavor is not to my liking. Looking for suggestions of other seed possibilities.

Thanks,
Danny

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I thought the opposite, rye tends to produce overly moist crumb, and a common problem with rye breads is too moist crumb that becomes gummy and sticks to the knife. Maybe that's only when most or all flour is rye?

You can just push the hydration, but might have to bake in a tin then.

Coriander seeds is another popular spice for rye bread, if you like them (think Borodinsky).

albacore's picture
albacore

That's why I asked the question, Danny. I also have the dry crumb problem with rye breads. I'm starting to wonder if home-milled has some shortcomings in this respect.

I have some roller milled light rye on order and will do my CB with that when it arrives, probably mixed with a lesser amount of sifted home milled rye.

I'm also wondering about that first clear flour, although I don't implicate lack of it in the dry crumb problem. We don't have first clear in the UK, but it sounds half way to a roller milled high extraction flour to me. I might try to emulate it by putting some of my roller milled whole wheat bread flour through the #50 sieve and blending it 50/50 with manitoba flour.

Lance

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

My last bake (Bake #3) had a much different crumb and texture than the first two. It was moist and not dry and a little tough like the first two. The most obvious difference was #3 used 40% rye and the first two used 25 & 35%. But I’m not sure that made the difference. Other bakers on this CB have said that their crumb was moist and I think they used less than 40% rye. I was careful to not over-bake the last loaf. This seems like the most obvious answer.

BTW - A bake #4 has started tonight. Since the rye levian ferments so long and has no diastatic Malt (since it is home milled) I decided to add 1% DM to the rye levain. Since the total rye in the formula is 40%, the baker’s percentage for diastatic malt was 0.4%. The white flour (Caputo Americana) has malt added.

Have you come to any new conclusions about dry crumb on your end? 

albacore's picture
albacore

Let's see how your bake comes out - I wish you success and like your idea of adding malt - nothing ventured, nothing gained!

I am still waiting for my rye type 997 (medium) to arrive before doing my bake, as I've been disappointed with nearly all my bakes using home milled rye, though I know others have had success with it.

Lance

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I thought 997 was light rye, not medium? The nomenclature is very confusing. Did your order the Shipton Mill one? I think that's the only UK producer that actually gives the German grade value for the light rye.

albacore's picture
albacore

As we know, Ilya, rye grading is complex! Bongu classes type 960 (Austrian)/ type 997 (German) as "Standard" rye - ie everyone in AT/DE uses it. That's good enough for me. Whether Shipton Mill 997 will be is another matter - hopefully it will!

This site gives good info too. That Piccantino site she mentions looks good for rye flour, but I must remember what I said yesterday about flour temptation!

Interestingly, Bongu mentions that rye with a high falling number gives a dry crumb - and you can find scholarly articles on it. I wonder if my (and Danny's) dry crumb relates to that?

Lance

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

“ Interestingly, Bongu mentions that rye with a high falling number gives a dry crumb - and you can find scholarly articles on it. I wonder if my (and Danny's) dry crumb relates to that?”

I don’t think that is so. On all 3 bakes the same home milled flour was used. 2 of the 3 were dry and 1 was not. The bread that was not dry used the most rye. I am not insinuating that was the difference, though.

Do you think over baking could be the culprit?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

If you want to develop sweetness from rye, try making a scald, with or without diastatic malt. Freshly milled rye should have tons of enzymatic activity on its own, though!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ilya, I have had gummy crumb, which indicates a disaster, but all of my successful bakes have a dry crumb. I think dry is the proper descriptor. For sure, the crumb is not moist. The texture of the crumb is nothing (atypical) like the sourdoughs I am accustomed to. It’s not terrible, it’s just “dry rye” crumb :-) Toasted with butter & a cup of coffee works for me.

Ilya, I think the gummy crumb problem has to do with enzyme breakdown, especially with the rye flour. I have read Stan’s book, “The Rye Baker” and he has a lot to say about that. My rye bread starter is 100% whole rye fed and fully matured. I embrace acid load with rye flour. All of the rye flour is fermented in the levain because of that. Maybe I mis-understood Stan, but that is my modus operandi at this time.

Is oil a commonly acceptable ingredient for rye bread?

Lance, I haven’t had a problem with a crumbly crumb, only dry.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

One is fennel seeds.  The second is dill seeds. 

I've found more people who dislike than like caraway.  Fennel seems to be about 50/50 in the like/dislike spectrum.  And almost everyone (in my relatively small sample population) likes dill.

I like all of them but usually default to dill seed when I know the bread will go to someone else.

A third option would be brotspice.  It's a blend, usually, of caraway, fennel, and anise.  Quite aromatic and tasty but not overwhelmingly caraway.  You may see some formulations that call for cumin but that seems to be a mistranslation of kummel.  I prefer to toast the seeds before grinding them.  Proportions vary widely from user to user.  If you want to experiment, use equal amounts of each and then decide whether you want to adjust the proportions.  Or, here's a recipe.

Paul

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

It is possible that my poor impression of rye bread flavor has a lot to do with Caraway seeds. The few rye breads that I baked prior to these have used Caraway. Dill sounds like something that could be nice.

If I have dill, it will go into the next bake. Would you recommend the same percentage as caraway or not?

When thinking about it, these latest rye bakes used no seeds and I found them bland. Nothing like what I had baked in the past. Maybe the caraway gave the bread a bad wrap :-)

pmccool's picture
pmccool

who "don't like rye bread" actually object to the taste of caraway.  If I give them rye bread with dill seeds, or fennel seeds, or no seeds at all, suddenly they like rye bread.  If you keep the seeds in the range of 1-2% on flour, you'll be in the sweet spot for most eaters.  Your preferences may vary.

Rye is different in flavor than wheat.  I enjoy it, especially the flavor coming from a good rye sour.  But that's me.  For your tastes, it may indeed be bland.  Even so, give it a chance; it may grow on you.  Or you may prefer something more complex, like a Detmolder 3-stage or a Borodinsky.

Paul

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

It's my understanding that rye flour holds a lot of water. I mix this dough at 70% hydration and if I alter it at all (I usually don't), it's to add a few grams of water. I don't recall ever adding flour to this formula. In general, I think this is a really solid formula that doesn't need a lot of tweaking. That said, I think it depends very much on the flour and grind. I got some rye flour from Bob's Red Mill once and was pretty surprised at how much water it soaked up. The dough is soft and sticky. I try to bake to 204°F - 207°F. I don't find the crumb to be too dry at all, but that can be such a subjective thing. I grew up eating similar breads, so I'm accustomed to the texture. 

As far as seeds go, maybe fennel or nigella? Or skip them altogether. I like caraway seeds and use lots of them :-)

isand66's picture
isand66

Derek posted yesterday that he used oil to help moisten the crumb.  I’m going to do the same for the bake I’m working on today.  Try toasted onions instead of caraway and you won’t be disappointed.  

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Delete

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Yippie, will you be joining in on the rye bake? I think many of us would enjoy seeing your CLAS (Concentrated Lactic Acid Sourdough) bread.

I have followed your links for Rus, but I am up to my ears with sourdough & Lievito Madre. LOL
I estimate, that in the last month or so I’ve gone through more than 10k of Italian flour feeding and trying to build up a vigorous LM. I hope determination wins out...

Yippee's picture
Yippee

is what I've experienced with all the rye bread that I made with Rus's formulae.  In fact, the crumb is so moist that toasting would ruin it -- so I don't toast my rye bread.

Gumminess indicates procedural defects and should not be confused with moist crumb. I'm no expert on rye -- simply want to share my experience.

Yippee

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I also find that the rye bakes retain a certain moistness - not gumminess, even into the next day.  In a sense perplexing as the interior of the breads will reach 210dF internally, and I let them sit for about two hours or more before cutting into them.  

I infrequently temp my bakes, but I'm less familiar with these rye bakes and am still getting a footing, just about resolved in this week of bakes.

However, as toast is high up there with my favorite foods on earth, I haven't had any problem with that moisture drying up during the toasting.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Have you seen any of his formulas that would be roughly similar to the deli rye breads? I've been looking through his channel and haven't found anything, it's usually way more rye than in the suggested recipes. I was avoiding all the recent CLAS ones though, since I can't make CLAS - no way to control the temperature, unfortunately. He is such an expert on this, I'd take his recipe for rye bread over any baking book recipes.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/58095/20181121-rus-brots-german-rye-using-monheims-sourdough

It's still a 90% rye bread, but using a lighter rye flour makes it...more white.

Rus is the (rye) man whose formula I trust wholeheartedly!

How do you pronounce your name? EE-LEE-(Y)AH?

Yippee

 

P.S. This bread is super tangy!

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Yippee, that looks good, I haven't seriously used light rye yet, but actually have a bag now - planned for another of his recipes, the "Swedish" rye with bitter orange, following a 100 year old recipe.

Tricky question, but try to say the "y" like in "yoga", and you'll be very close! And accent on a, not on I.

mwilson's picture
mwilson

A very quick passing by bake.

Overall its decent but definitely some room for improvement.

  • LM leavened
  • 12% PFF
  • 40% whole rye, stoneground and not sifted
  • 78% hydration

The dough over-proofed I guess, at double volume it had torn while rising but was nice and jiggly. No notable oven spring was observed.

Crumb was very moist and a little sticky. The over-proofing was evident in the crumb. The outer areas were soft and yielding but the centre was denser and less defined - it appears the lower part collapsed on itself.

Still it is very tasty and very soft, perfect for a sandwich...

Pepper pesto, cucumber and ham.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Thanks David!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

most of what passes for artisan rye bread in shop windows these days.  Michael, what type of blade did you use to score?  I tried my ceramic blade, but found it not much help.  But my serrated bread knife, ohh la la!  I love the circular pattern of the crumb.

alan

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Cheers alan!

Most of my breads end up with that swirl in the crumb, a sign of something done well I am led to believe.

I used my lame on the curved setting to do the scoring, although I'm not sure the curved blade did anything here, probably just my dodgy execution.


Michael

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Mike, the crumb looks great to me. It’s a little lacy and that is best crumb attribute in my book.

The bread looks moist. Is that so?

Since you pride your breads on having the circular crumb and obtain it most times, please let us know your shaping process.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I like the look of this loaf. Nice job.

Gavin

Benito's picture
Benito

Your baking always impresses me Michael and that is a great looking sandwich too.

Benny

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

What you consider a decent result, is for "everyman" blue ribbon territory! Really nice bread and an equally nice sandwich! 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Hello, friends.

 Following the new and improved community bake format protocol, I will post short alert snippets and link to my blog page for the meat and potatoes! 

Formula development New York Rye

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Just out of the oven and cooling ... 

Boy, do these smell good! 

Cooled, sliced and tasted.

Crunchy crust still. Moist, tender crumb with an earthy, mildly sour flavor. Quite delicious.

David

Benito's picture
Benito

Love the glossy crust David, lovely.  Wonderful crumb as well.

Benny

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I want to guess some kind of cornstarch and water concoction for the wash? 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Before and after baking.

David

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Include putting a man on the moon, and more recently, engineering a cure to a deadly pandemic in less than one year! Yet, I am vexed in that to date no mechanism has been devised to allow aromas to permeate over the internet! Smile...

I really do crack myself up! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Of the 4 ryes that I've made for the CB, yours and Eric's have been the only two with any significant loft.  But I can't duplicate your glaze.  Mine just gets absorbed into the dough, even when I slap on another layer a half hour later.  Where do I pick up a magic wand?

alan

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hmmmm ... I've never had the dough absorb the glaze. I'd say this could happen only if the dough is too wet and the glaze is too thin. From seeing your breads, I doubt the former is the case.

Too be clear about the glaze:

In a small sauce pan, bring 1 cup of water to a boil.

In a 1 cup measuring cup, whisk together 1/4 cup water with 1-2 tbsp cornstarch.

Slowly pour the cornstarch mixture into the boiling water, whisking constantly.

Continue whisking until the glaze has thickened slightly. Then take it off the burner and set aside until used. (It is semi-solid by time I use it.)

I brush the glaze on the loaves just before I score them and load them in the oven and again just after they are baked and transferred to a cooling rack. 

Note: The recipe above makes way more glaze than you need for a couple loaves. I usually make half of this, and still end up using only 1/4-1/3 of it.

Hope this helps.

David

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I was using your glaze way back - like 5 years ago, but started employing Eric's glaze for all of these bakes.  His calls for 1/2 TBS in 1/2 C boiling water.  Okay, back to the source for me on the next bake...

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

10:00 AM - We are 3 1/2 hours into the four-hour room temperature sponge ferment.  

Observations. Even at the higher hydration, the actual steps are closely mirroring Ms.Beranbaums, procedure. 

 

Real-time Play by Play

Enter bulk fermentation

Another innovative groundbreaking, Roadside Pie King technique, The oval banneton is lined with parchment paper.

The end game...Proof

The actual bake:

I tried to get fancy with the scoring. I forgot to spray the loaves as I wanted to. Even with the towel and the hot pan, I am very unhappy with the color. The batard should be done directly.

Holy crap! It really does smell terrific in here! My gut tells me I am going to be thrilled with the crumb. Time will tell. How do I store these bad boys till tomorrow for the best outcome? 

 Waiting until tomorrow, was a non-starter. I submit, pastrami on N.Y. style deli rye! 

 

Bake # 2

Real-Time Blow by Blow

 

isand66's picture
isand66

Great job.  Beam over half of that sammie please!

Horseshoez's picture
Horseshoez

Hello folks,

I'm new to the party here; started my sourdough baking journey last April and have since made a number of "Rye" bread loaves.  My favorite a 40/60 mix of stone ground Dark Rye and Einkorn with a healthy dosage of caraway seeds.  My current project is to make a Pumpernickel reminiscent of the dark loaves of bread I used to be able to get when I was working in Germany (my first two attempts were met with limited success).  Hopefully I'll have something to show next weekend on this project.

Here are a couple of shots of one of my Dark Rye/Einkorn loaves:

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Still plenty of room for new and old alike.  The crumb looks lovely.  And I think that you broke ground by being the first Einkorn entry.

Horseshoez's picture
Horseshoez

Thanks @alfanso!

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow nice baking!  How is the flavour of rye and einkorn?  For 100% gluten poor flours you’ve done a great job getting a great crumb.

Benny

Horseshoez's picture
Horseshoez

At this point I've made "Rye" bread with the following flour mixtures:

  • 50/50 Dark Rye/Einkorn
  • 40/60 Dark Rye/Einkorn
  • 40/60 Dark Rye/Wheat

From a flavor and texture perspective, the 50/50 mix was the best, however, the hardest to work with.  I've made maybe ten 40/60 loaves with Einkorn and two with Wheat, and both times I was like, "What is wrong with this taste?"  To my palate at least, the Rye/Einkorn combination makes a MUCH more flavorful loaf of bread.

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

So...this CB was timely. Rubens are in my future

I went simple.

500 g BF

100 gr Dark Rye

30 gr WW Flour

23 g caraway seeds (mixed in the dry flours)

410 water

130 gr 100% hydration levain (90% BF 10% Rye)

69% Overall hydration

1. One Hour autolyse, then add levain and 15 gr salt

2. 7 hours BF (71 deg F)

3. 8 hours retard in fridge. Got quite a bit of rise during the retard

4.Slash and Bake in DO 15 minutes lid on at 500 F

5. Bake 25 minutes lid off at 400 F

Its cooling now and I'll post after I cut and make the sandwiches later today.

 

Well...The deed is done!

The crust was really good. Not too hard or chewy but with a little crunch. Flavor was great. Lots of caraway.

The crumb was soft and not gummy or sticky. ideal for sandwiches

Benito's picture
Benito

Oh wow homemade corned beef on home baked rye, yummy.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and ship me that slab o' corned beef!

Pretty low percent of rye, but still a qualifier in our Cavalcade of Ryes!  If you haven't already noticed from your own bakes or from that of others, bumping the rye percentage significantly higher will shorten the BF and proofing time by quite a bit.

Certainly a handsome loaf. 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I am loving your bake and usage!

 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

...but can we talk about that corned beef? Seriously. That looks soooooo gooooood!

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

used Morton Tender Quick and about 3 heaping tablespoons of my pickling spice mixture. It contains whole allspice, cloves, coriander seeds, bay leaves, chili flakes, rosemary, dill, and celery seed. i rub the meat with Tender quick and a bit of brown sugar and put the meat in a ziploc with the spices. Add to that about 1 1/2 cups of cold water. This goes in the fridge for about 5 days with a turn and massage once a day.

Once its cured, I simmer covered with the spices and enough additional water for about 50 minutes per lb or until tender.

I have a meat slicer, so after an overnight chill in the fridge, I slice it thin.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Oh wow! Totally gonna try this! Thank you!!!!!

isand66's picture
isand66

I’ll be right over!  Great looking bread and that sandwich is to die for?

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks for putting this together.  This is a good chance for me to learn more about rye baking.  I am planning to start with  David Snyder's recipe and then try some denser European loaves from Daniel Leader's Living Bread once I get more comfortable with the <= 40% NY Jewish baker variety.   I'll keep notes in my TFL blog here.   I'm in Brooklyn, so any recommendations for loaves I should try from bakeries or delis in Brooklyn or lower Manhattan would be appreciated.  I'm hoping there is NYC rival to the esteemed Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis that will help me with these rye sour deli style loaves ;) -- Lactobacillus manhattansis?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Is part of these CB travels.  He works in lower manhattan, and I think lives in Brooklyn, so he may be a fine source.  There are likely a few others Brooklynites hanging around these parts although not necessarily on this CB.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I live and work right across the street from your brother in law! Resident manager. Not a bad gig, however, I am just about burned out on the 24/7 aspect of the job. After I walk the pup, I am heading to Citarella, to see about some corn beef and pastrami!

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

As tempted as I was to try a corn rye, how could I not bake Eric’s Favorite Rye for Eric’s Memorial Community Bake?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Just in case some one likes caraway.

David

 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

But most of them went skittering around the counter when we sliced it anyway ?

Thanks!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Has a penchant for understatement! Very nice bake! I was also taken by your older bakes. you are a very skilled baker indeed! 

Kind regards,

Will F.

(The Roadside Pie King)

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I appreciate your kind words! I'm looking forward to seeing your onion rye.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

My wife is going to have a canary when I start full-on baking at 10:00 PM on a Sunday night! Ah, what we must endure for our art! T minus 7 Hrs. until the final dough mix.

 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

That's where i find the boiled cornflour past helps to stick them to the crust. Lovely looking loaf too

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

...on deli ryes, but only as a glaze. I usually mix a far more moderate amount of seeds directly into the dough, so this was my first time using it as "glue." Maybe I need a thicker application for that?

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Yes i tend to use different consistencies, a glaze or as a glue i think it also helps with the delay ing the setting of the crust in the initial burst of activity and oven spring when the dough hits the heat of the oven.

 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

The cutest thing I ever saw. With a beautiful crumb.  Is this the Eric formula I posted and divided into smaller loaves, or is this another of his?

My seed monster would eat your seed monster in two bites...

I found out that there is such a thing as too much caraway!

Benito's picture
Benito

She’s a beaut AG, lovely crust and crumb.  Too many caraway seeds for me, but if you love them perfect for you.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I must have been inspired by Benny's beautiful seeded breads and got cara-d'away. (Now I'm using bad puns, too. Booooo!) The good news is, they didn't stay on the bread AT ALL; the bad news is, I've been cleaning the little buggers off the counter and floor, now for the second straight day.  

Alan, I planned to make one full size loaf but my son in law wanted some, so my one full sized loaf turned into two mini loaves. This one weighed in at 385g (not including the pound of seeds!). 

EDITED to add that this is Eric's formula as posted on Alan's blog, writ small.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Please direct your attention to the attached photo. I always have a good supply of dehydrated onion on hand for use in Norm's onion rolls. The link below will take you to the play by play of bake #1, and soon the blow by blow of bake #2. Right now, I am warming up my white flour mother culture. The plan is to inoculate the 100% hydration rye starter with it, after a quick feeding.

 I decided to feed 20 grams of my cold stored, stock mother culture with the same whole stone ground rye flour I will use in the formula. ETA to active 4Hrs. at 11:00 AM the rye sponge culture will be mixed. 

Bake #2 - Real-Time, blow by blow

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

A compilation of all my rye bakes can be seen on MY BLOG.

Dan’s Bake #3

In an attempt to ramp up the flavor, this bake was Hamelman’s 40% Rye. Used 1% dill and sprinkled crust with kosher salt. NOTE - need to learn how to properly apply salt to crust. Glazed crust with corn starch/water mixed, then sprinkled salt. But the salt sort of “melted” in many places.

A light bulb moment -

All 3 of the first bakes used Caputo’s Americana for the white flour and home milled rye (dark rye). With the exception of Bake #3 (spiked with Chocolate Barley) the bread lacked that typical dark rye color. I think that the addition of 0.5 to 1% Diastatic Malt would have benefited the bread. Most american flours are malted.

 

This bread was moist, unlike the other two. Both the crust and crumb was softer also. Looks like AG was correct. The rye flavor kicks in at 40% rye.

 

 The flavor review -

Since Caraway is too pungent for my liking, 1% dill was added to the dough. It gave the bread a nice nuance, but wasn’t overwhelming. Also 1% Malted (N/D) Chocolate Barley was also added to the dough. It produced a darker crust and crumb, but more importantly, the chocolate flavor was a welcomed addition.

Both the crust and crumb was softer, which I liked. And the crumb was moist. Other than the possibly of over baking the first two, I can find no other explanation.

It seems that 40% whole rye is the threshold for those seeking the characteristic flavor that rye lovers crave. Comparing Bake #2 (35% rye) with Bake #3 (40% rye), the increase of 5% rye made a 100% difference. Possibly a slight exaggeration, but it sounded too good to resist :-)

Had to jump on the band wagon with Texas Dad. The corned brisket is slow cooking as this is written. Reubens for lunch.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

This bake is a big step forward in comparison to your first two.  That's a nice crumb, a bit compressed around the edges, but pretty nice.  Maybe you needed to hit the sweet spot to appreciate the rye flavor, sans the caraway, something you hadn't experienced until now.   Easy to forget that many foreign flours are absent of the malt powder, so it always pays to glance at the ingredients (preaching to the choir).  

You may find that these breads frequently don't exhibit a lot of the typical grigne that our other breads do, and the lateral scoring on these breads may serve as more than just tradition, but out of some "necessity".

The rye bread that I baked days go and sits on the counter is still fairly fresh and still moist inside.  An odd characteristic of amped up ryes.

Benito's picture
Benito

The crumb looks fine to me for 40% rye.  Now this malted chocolate barley, I’m not familiar with it, is the chocolate descriptive related to actual chocolate or just the deep colour?

Benny

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Danny, that looks really nice! Dill was a truly inspired choice and I will be incorporating that into my next bake, too. (It's possible that I'm a little sick of caraway for now ?). I've never heard of chocolate barley malt before. Does it add dark chocolate flavor notes or is it more of a chocolate coloring with typical malt flavor?

I used to sprinkle my ryes with salt. It was always great the first day but melted overnight, making the crust kind of slimy. I even tried pretzel salt but the same thing happened, so I don't bother with it anymore. 

Anyway, great bake!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The Chocolate Malted Barley can be readily had at ant Home Brew store. As little as 1% will noticeably darken any loaf. It also imparts a distinct flavor to the bread.

If you happen to visit a Home Brew Store you will be amazed at the variety. Some of the malts are diastatic and some, not. I bought a bunch of samples. The barley is very inexpensive.

The dark color of the dough pictured below is a result of 6 grams of Chocolate Barley. I liked the flavor so much, the barley may be doubled or tripled next time.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Nice bake. I've decided on the 40%rye for my next bake as I found the 70% far too strong. 

Cheers,

Gavin

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Gavin, I may go higher (just to see). But I'd bet 40% is the sweet spot for me. I like this one untoasted with butter. 

If you use Caraway seeds, make sure you like the taste. They are pretty strong flavored.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

and it isn't too much of a chore if you want the small challenge.  I posted this one earlier in the CB.  Another aspect is that it uses an 80% hydration sour rather than the ubiquitous 100%.  

ifs201's picture
ifs201

I just tried my hand at Eric's recipe with some adjustments which I'll list below:

  • Boosted rye to 40%
  • Used dark rye instead of medium (freshly milled and did not sift)
  • Reduced ADY to 1g
  • Increased hydration (did autolyse of 650g water on 800g of flour)
  • Did slap and fold of autolyse + spounge and then after 30 minutes did slap and fold to incorporate molases + salt
  • Did cold ferment after shaping for 3-4 hours
  • Baked in DO for 45 minutes
  • Added nuts and berries to one loaf

Benito's picture
Benito

That’s marvelous Ilene, love the crumb. How much molasses did you use percentage wise?  How do you like the flavour?

Benny

ifs201's picture
ifs201

I did just under 2% molasses. I never put sugar in my breads so I was debating between honey and molasses... I've only tried the fruit nut bread, but it's a nice tasting loaf and nice and fluffy as well. Admittedly it doesn't taste much like Jewish/deli rye! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Nice looking slice, Ilene!

What was your final hydration? 

Also, what white flour did you use? I want to encourage all rye bakers to include the type of white flour they used. Since almost all of the glutenin is derived from the white flour, it seems beneficial to know the source of glutenin in the dough.


wikipedia -
Rye flour is high in gliadin but low in glutenin. It therefore has a lower gluten content than wheat flour. It also contains a higher proportion of soluble fiber.

Since rye is high is gliadin, it is super stretchy (extensible).
But since it contains very small amounts of glutenin, it lacks the ability to hold a shape (elasticity).

ifs201's picture
ifs201

My final hydration was just 95% which was definitely too high! It was a bit hard to work. I used KA bread flour for the white.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

WOWZER, Ilene!

95% hydration and 40% rye. It is amazing what we learn through these CBs... I am surprised you could shape it at all.

ifs201's picture
ifs201

It is a miracle!!

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Lovely and open! What kind of wheat flour did you use? Also love the inclusions.

So many creative ideas coming out in this CB!

ifs201's picture
ifs201

King Arthur Bread Flour and home milled Danko Rye

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

The steeping of the onions is now underway. Why two separate steeping pots you ask? I beg your patience. The answer to that question and many more will become evident in good time. 

The Real Time Blow by Blow

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Well, I finally found some time to try a deli rye bread for the CB this weekend. I like the rye flavour, so I went for dmsnyder's recipe, but without any CY: https://fgbc.dk/12se

Everyone is producing such perfect loaves, time for a bake with at least one issue :)

Mixed the preferment in the evening, and let it ferment for a long time, until next day afternoon. It didn't rise very much (but I was using a rather wide bowl, so hard to tell), but it had a lot of air in it. During the day I as keeping it really warm in the oven with a tray of hot water below.

I then decided to do what has been suggested earlier: developing gluten in the bread flour before combining with the rye sour. So I just autolysed the bread flour (Dove's farm 13% protein, 50% hydration for autolyse) and kneaded just a little bit - and it was producing a nice windowpane super quickly. I then mixed the salt and caraway seeds into the preferment, and incorporated it into the dough using "lamination". Then mixed to more or less homogeneity by hand, and continued using slap&folds - and indeed, to my surprise the dough  was strong enough for that! After it appeared as if the dough slackened a bit and then gained the strength again, I left it to ferment in the warm oven like before for 1 hr (due to life), then did stretch&folds, then repeated in 30 min. At that point I thought the dough was actually ready, but I was kind of surprised it would be so quick without any added yeast, so I left it for another 30 min just in case. The dough was a bit jiggly and definitely full of air, looking through the sides of the bowl.

I then shaped it with degassing into batards, and it was surprisingly pleasant to work with. I needed some dusting flour of course, but not too much. It wasn't a very strong dough comparing to wheat ones, but it was unexpectedly strong.

I then proofed it seam side down in parchment paper with support fro the sides. Calling the end of proof was tricky, but after just 1 hr it clearly significantly grew and I thought the poke test was good. When moving them on the paper it was clear the dough has changed a lot since shaping for sure. So I scored it in the traditional way across the long axis, brushed with a little water and baked on steel for 15 min with steam, and ~23 min without steam. Left in the oven after switching off for another 10 min with a door ajar. Then coated with a corn starch glaze.

I got a nice oven spring and a beautiful shiny crust with a red hue. The only issue is that both of them split along the long axis... I feel like if I scored them at least diagonally, or even along the length, that wouldn't have happened, I could have had like a proper ear on it probably, and a bigger oven spring. Why are these normally scored this way? Does this mean I underproofed it, and shouldn't have had a big oven spring with most rise happening before?

The crumb looks good to me, and taste is great, nice combo of some acidity, rye and caraway seeds.

PS

See my blog entry for this CB here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66603/deli-rye-cb

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ilya, I know little about rye bread, but I think both the refined loaves (many of the CB bakers produced) and also the “rustic” loaves are quite acceptable. I kind of like the rustic look with the split top. It looks “old world”.

Rye is not know to be an easy to bake bread. IMO the results produced so far have been stellar. Let’s see what others have to say.

As for the cracked top - I also had that the last bake. If we wanted to avoid that should we make the cuts deeper? It also seems that gluten development comes into play with this.

Question for everyone -
Is it best to glaze the loaf after it has baked? I’m wondering if the glaze is applied before baking, it might prevent expansion.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you! I don't mind the split too much, but I wish I knew what to expect, and would have adjusted the scoring accordingly. I am curious why others don't have this problem.

From my experience with Russian style all-rye bakes, usually before baking one applies a little liquid dough, or just water for simplicity, and a starch glaze after baking.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Your bread looks delish and the crust is right up my alley. I'd have a slice right now!

My impression is that blowouts with deli ryes are not uncommon. At least it was a common experience for me. It doesn't happen to me as much anymore, maybe because I push the final proof farther than I would with other breads. With deli rye, I'm more or less a clock-watcher for bulk. I'll adjust for temperature, but that's about it. Then for final proof, I wait till the dough feels soft and marshmallowy. If you are omitting CY, you probably have to extend the bulk phase, so you would need to keep an eye on the final proof. You don't want it to collapse or make you pucker up. That said, 40% is a relatively low level of rye, so it would probably be fine; I just have no personal experience with it so I can't say. Hopefully other rye bakers will chime in.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks AG! I'm pleasantly surprised with the crust, it's just spot on.

I see, thanks for the comment! So need to push final proof more then. I only recently started proofing outside the fridge, and it's not so straightforward to decide when it's done, especially with a dough like this - and in this case it needs to go further than usual too.

I extended the bulk, did it for 2 hrs instead of 1 hr, but the dough was plenty active even at 1 hr! The rye sour is so powerful, fermentation is very quick. I really don't think CY is necessary here, just pushing the time a little does the job nicely.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

At 40% rye, I imagine the CY is less important. As the percentage of rye goes up, the CY might become more important.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I was thinking the kind of nice-looking blowouts on my 85-gram rolls were due to the rushed no pre-shape and rest shaping. (Closeup of blowouts) I have to say the onion bread/rolls taste amazing balls! The rolls have a slightly hard thin crust, while the bread has a rather soft crust.

Benito's picture
Benito

Ilya, I also had additional cracks in my rye bread that I wasn’t expecting.  I did three overlapping scores a bit like one might do for a baguettes, yet had some cracks down the sides.  Having no previous experience with rye breads I didn’t know what to think about them.  Your rye breads certainly look great to me and the crumb looks very very nice.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks Benny!

I am just trying to understand the mechanics, how it is possible to avoid the cracks with scores going only one direction, while the most expansion expected along the length of the scores, i.e. along the width of the loaf, and the circumferential tension after shaping. So my idea was that actually one shouldn't get any significant oven spring and the loaves need to be almost overproofed, and therefore mine were underproofed for this task.

All me previous experience with high % rye was only as tinned loafs where it's not really an issue, but getting cracks in free-standing rye breads seems to be a frequent problem: I remember Rus Brot covering his loaf during proof with water every 15 minutes to avoid any cracks in Riga Bread which is not scored at all (or one could use steam, I think).

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I guess another possibility is the hydration should be a little higher to make the dough more pliable. And I used whole rye instead of medium rye, so it must have been more thirsty... And by the way I wouldn't want to reduce the rye flavour at all here, it's not overpowering at all to my test.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Unexpected cracks and splits are often par for the course with rye breads, so I've found.   Many bakery ryes also exhibit a crackly crust with a network of cracks across the width and breadth of the loaf.  

I love seeing these distinct takes on the "base" ryes offered.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

See the Blow by blow action here

Real-time Blow by Blow

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I a very respectable outcome. The moral of this story? Quitters never achieve what might have been!

Benito's picture
Benito

That looks great Will, good thing you didn't give up on it, it will make great sandwiches.

Benny

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I wanted to wait for the resident rye masters to put their bakes on display before I ventured into making my own. Everyones contributions looked great thus far and that helped me decide how to proceed. I have used rye before but in small percentages like pain au levain or campagne. I started my first rye sour last week from my wheat starter to get the ball rolling. I went with 83% water ala Hammelman and home milled organic rye. It seemed pretty active and would double in size with nice gas bubbles and cracks in the floured surface.

I decided to use the Jewish Rye recipe from King Arthur that included detailed instructions and 8x10 glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a description on the back of each one.(song reference) It is 36% rye and I used KAF AP for the white flour and some leftover ciabatta for the altus. I will freeze some slices for future bakes.

I was worried about over mixing and unsure when the mixing was complete so the dough was only mixed for about 3 minutes in my Bosch mixer. There was some strength evident but similar to a hunk of clay. Next time I will mix then rest 20 minute before finishing the mixing to allow for more gluten development as the E Hanner recipe suggested. Other things I will do next time is not forget to oil the bowl and the parchment. I am thinking that the onions might be a welcome addition to combat the caraway seed dominance of the smell and taste.

deli rye

rye crumb

The crumb is as dense as any bread I have ever made which is to be expected for rye I guess. I am thinking an auotlyse and more gluten development next time might help. I don't think I was far off in the proofing times but much of this rye bread making is still a mystery to me. I am looking forward to a Rueben sandwich though.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Nice looking loaf, M.T. I think with a little more gluten development/bulk ferment you could open up that crumb. Meanwhile, you achieved some nice lift and a rounded shape that eluded me in my two bakes. 

 Side note, that is some big heathy looking aloe vera plant you have there! 

Best,

RPK.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The recipe I used said six minutes in a Kitchen Aide so I figured even less time for the Bosch. I read that your mixing time is much longer and I really like the crumb you achieved so next time I will let it roll. I supported the sides during the proof to get a taller loaf but it still spread and was stuck to the parchment.

That aloe is older than me! 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I am getting pretty good with the Bosch. However, that being said, I do not love it. In my experience even slightly wet dough sticks to the plastic bowl like it were flypaper! I really hate the post in the center! I like to use the 5 minute and rest method, with the Bosch. I use it extensively.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

We gave away our Kitchen Aide because it was headed for an early grave. I have learned to like the Bosch after some tinkering. It was a disaster in the beginning but I have learned to use the bassinage method of a dripping in the water slowly and now I can do an 84% ciabatta that travels around the bowl and lifts out clean. I bought the stainless steel bowl with the hook on the bottom but it has it's issues too with sticking so depending on the reicpe as to which one I use. My center column bowl gets scratched when seeds are in the mix so that is why I have the SS one.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Do you think it is worth my time a $$$? Scratching notwithstanding. (Bottom drive) I did all the research. 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

if you want the extra capacity to mix a larger amount of dough. The kneading action doesn't mimic hand kneading like the center post version. The stainless is stickier than the plastic bowl and needs an occasional non-stick spray. I saw the new version has a stainless bowl but still a plastic center post. 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

That is correct the new version still has the post. I feel like the Kitchenaid bowl was naturally stick-free! However it has been a while. 

Benito's picture
Benito

I agree with your plans for a future bake, I think that Dan's idea of fully developing the gluten before adding the rye sour is a excellent one.  I was pleasantly surprised at the crumb I baked using his methods.  

Don your bread has an excellent oven spring and crust, I bet with a few adjustments you'd be super pleased with the crumb.  I bet you're having an excellent reuben as I type this.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

you and Dan had used an improved delayed integration mix and I think your crumb was a beauty that defied the normal rye crumb. I saw that one of Dan's version had the vanilla and fudge swirl so I balked at that for my first rye attempt.

I was wondering how you are getting along with your rye starter and if you had used it for non rye breads yet?

Benito's picture
Benito

My all rye starter is doing well so far, I guess the test will be long term use and whether it will start vigorous.  I actually have used it several times now on enriched breads with a white levain.  I've never had such good levain activity with an all white flour.  It will now grow to 3x which never happened before.  Something I never really did before but likely everyone else does already, is that I am mixing these white levain until I get some gluten development.  One of the reasons I think that my white levain never appeared to rise more than just shy of 2 x is that I believe I never mixed them well enough.  Thus they were too liquid to hold the gases that they would produce and then never grow very much.  I believe that with the greater activity of the rye starter and with more vigorous mixing to form some gluten the white levain are much much more active.

The babkas I've made weren't very successful, but that wasn't the fault of the levain, in fact they did a good job of leavening the dough.  So far so good Don thank for asking.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Looks to me like you did everything right. I know what you mean about clay, it feels like that to me, too.

Enjoy!!

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I am hoping to get a rye crumb like the ones you have shown us. 

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Very good looking loaf; shape, finish and crumb. The lateral scoring really suits a rye bread.

Cheers,

Gavin.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

blushed and had to hide them before the wife came into the room.   Great shaping, about as classic as they come.  For the most part, rye and dense crumb generally go hand in hand once the rye hits @40%.

The suggestion for the caraway-averse is to cut down on the amount, eliminate them completely or replace them with something like a dill seed.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

The 8 x10 glossy was an Arlo Guthrie “ Alice’s Restaurant” reference for those of you playing along. 
I am glad to finally have the chance to explore the neglected rye chapter in Hammelman’s book with the help of this CB. From the look of things I have a lot to learn about rye. 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

This is a must-see rye video series! While you're on the thread scroll to Dr. Syniders's comment.

Must see French Rye Bread series

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

The few times I baked Rye bread prior to the CB Caraway seeds were used. It looks like rye and caraway go hand in hand. I really did not like the flavor of the bread at all. Don’t know for sure, but the frozen slices may have been fed to the birds. I really didn’t like eating it.

BUT, since the CB, I’ve baked rye without the Caraway seeds and at 40% rye it is tasty and a joy to eat. I blamed the rye when it was the Caraway seeds after all.

I know Caraway is very popular with rye breads, so many people must really like them. But if you are put off by rye bread and it has Caraway seeds, try baking one without. 

You learn all kinds of things when you get together and bake with like minded bakers.

Danny

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I like the flavor I get from rye in a pain au levain but the caraway smothers it even when the rye is 40%. That being said the Rueben sandwich I had for lunch would not have been the same without the  caraway seed. When I volunteered at the food pantry we made a rye bread with pickle juice in it. Now that had an unusual bread aroma when it came out of the oven.

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

These are very, very common. I'd say over 3/4 of my rye breads have blow-outs. Assuming good loaf shaping (No really weak spots), the main issue is under-proofing. I usually run out of time or patience and bake a bit before I know I really should. 

I haven't tried really deep scoring. I suppose I should. Informed guesses are trumped by data.

David

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

 A little while back, I took a page from My friend Danny's book and hosted a few group- bakes at the FB rye baker club. I submit, Spiced honey rye.

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Pleased to see this bake. I chose the David Snyder version for the higher rye content.  

I deviated in minor ways - ground the caraway, dropped the temp to 420dF as the loaves browned early, and glazed only after the bake.  House smells great, bread tastes great.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Run4Bread, your images are not latge enough.

When you post images you’ll notice a popup window asking for dimensions. I you add a number in the “width” box you will be able to control the size. For full page put “625”. The length will atuo-fill. 

Also you don’t want the “Thumbnail” box checked.

I enlarged the thumbnail images and although the quality was not good, I could tell that your bread is beautiful.

Your enlarged images are gorgeous!

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Thanks, Dan - struggling to get it to upload. First too big, then too small. 

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful rye bread, great job.

Benny

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Perfect crust and crumb for a sammie.

run4bread's picture
run4bread

This was the first time I've been successful with a cornstarch glaze. I followed David's directions carefully and applied it with a bristle pastry brush as someone recommended when the bread was just out of the oven. 

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Thanks! Lunch is too far away so it became dessert! 

 

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Great job. I like the finish and crumb. Great for sandwiches. I always have to lower the temperature on rye bread after about 15 minutes. 

Cheers,

Gavin

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Thank you! 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I like the look of your loaf and crumb. How would you describe the fermentation? Under, Over proofed, etc. How did the dough feel and behave when shaping?

Recently, many of the TFL SD bakers are bulk proofing to about 30% (more or less). I'm not sure that works with Rye.

Your bread didn't blow out, cracking the crust. Other bakers with similar loaves are asked the same.

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Hi, Dan, I followed David's recommendation of 15-20 minutes for bulk fermentation. However I kneaded the dough using slap and folds until I achieved a strong windowpane. I've been working on a 50% whole wheat oat porridge pan loaf and learned from TxFarmer that a strong windowpane is important. So I thought I'd try that here too. I was surprised that I could get a good windowpane with 44% rye. Must be that 66% bread flour. (I used a locally milled flour, Expresso (T85) from Cairnspring Mill.)  

I was disappointed with my scoring. Should have gone deeper. Didn't know the loaf could take a deeper score. Didn't spring back much from the poke test. 

I also placed the two loaves as far apart as I could on the baking stone. And sprayed a lot during the steam phase. 

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

WOW! 15-20 min BF?
How much CY?
what was the ambient temp during your BF?
Did the dough grow in that short time?

For this type of rye bread I am also a big fan of gluten development. That’s why I develop the gluten in the mixer for the white flour and final dough water only before adding the rye levain to the mix. The present thought is that the highly developed white flour first, makes incorporation of the rye levain more efficient. That may or may not be the case, but that’s my reasoning. The dough dose handle and shape very nicely, but I have limited experience dealing with large percentages of rye.

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Yes, I had to re-read the instructions for 15-20 mins BF! And yes, it definitely grew. In my proofing box at 75dF.

I planned to autolyse the bread flour and water, then knead before adding the levain, but it was too dry (50% hydration, and that flour can be thirsty). I autolysed with as much flour as I could, and only 15 minutes, no kneading. Didn't want to add more water, as I learned on TFL to follow the recipe the first time, then deviate. 

I guess a take-away is that gluten development can happen with the rye in it, at least at this level. 

I like high % rye. I'm going to work on some volkornbrots. No shaping, plop into the pullman. I also want to try the 3 stage Detmolder, haven't done that yet. And I want to try my first Pannetone. 

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

It looks ideal to me.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

There's nothing I don't like about this.  The 15-20 minute BF is a mind-blower isn't it?

gavinc's picture
gavinc

40 Percent Caraway Rye Sourdough – Hamelman

Today’s bake was Hamelman’s 40 Percent Caraway Rye. The last rye bake was a 3-stage 70% rye sourdough, but I thought the rye was too strong for my liking. It was also complex with multiple temperatures. This bake was a lot simpler and took much less time. The flavour is exceptional with the caraway seeds being a great affiliate.

I used home-milled whole-rye flour and Lauche Wallaby bakers flour that is 11.5% protein. The dough was easy to handle and not overly sticky. I used a mixer to incorporate the ingredients and added the stiff rye sourdough in chunks. The overnight stiff rye sourdough felt soft and sticky. The DDT hit the 27C target.

Bulk fermentation for 1 hour. Pre-shaped into a ball and rested for 10 minutes. I then shaped the dough into an oblong. Final proof in a couche for 50 minutes at 27C, seam side down. I liked that the dough felt soft and delicate when I moved it to the peel.

Baked in a pre-steamed oven at 238C for first 15 minutes. The temperature was lowered to 227C for 25 minutes.

The taste is very nice and the best rye loaf I’ve baked so far. I treated myself to a lunch of rye bread with cream cheese and smoked salmon. A sprig of fresh dill would have set it off.

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Very nice loaf!  Great toppings. :-)

I've baked this before and enjoyed it. 

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks. I think this is a keeper.

 

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

What a great rise, looks amazing! Enjoy!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks. The rise surprised me also. The dough felt light for rye when I transferred it to the peel.

Benito's picture
Benito

Wow Gavin, that is one handsome rye loaf.  I’m amazed at the ear on it.  Beautiful crumb and crust and of course delicious looking sandwiches.  That is a triumph.

Benny

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Thanks, Benny. The dough felt so nice when I moved it to the peel, I thought to score it like a regular batard. The spring on the rye surprised me as well. Cheers.

 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Good height, shape and bloom.

Crumb looks perfect at 40% rye.

Nice work!

alfanso's picture
alfanso

So far I also found that the Hamelman version you baked to be the most flavorful of those I've baked so far. Great shaping and lovely loft and oven spring for a 40% rye bread.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

...and I'll take it an unreasonable step further. Hamelman's 40% Rye is my very favorite bread. I know it's crazy. There are a million better breads out there and I love love love them all, but this is my everyday bread. My mom sent one of us to the bakery every day for a loaf of bread, but rye bread was a Saturday-only treat. After the old bakeries started disappearing and you couldn't get this kind of bread anymore, I was determined to figure out how to make it. Nostalgia is a powerful influence.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Great to hear your sentiment about rye bread. I followed Hamelman's formula and process exactly, so I could have confidence in repeating the results if I liked it. I must say that this is the nicest rye I've tasted.

Cheers,

Gavin

gavinc's picture
gavinc

It's nice to get encouragement from competent bakers. Cheers.

pmccool's picture
pmccool
  1.  

This is a light rye bread from Leader's Local Breads that he has titled Polish Cottage Rye.  It employs a rye sour that is then combined with bread flour, water, and salt to form the final dough.  The process is pretty straightforward.  The rye sour is made the evening of Day 1 and ferments overnight.  On the morning of Day 2, the sour and the rest of the dough ingredients are combined, kneaded (I employed my KitchenAid mixer), fermented, shaped, and proofed before baking.  The dough moved along briskly enough that I pulled the bread out of the oven a little before 1:00 p.m.

The rye constitutes 25% of the flour and is entirely prefermented.  Leader calls for white rye flour; I used home-milled whole rye flour.  Overall hydration is just a hair under 75%, which makes this a fairly sticky dough.  It's the first time that I've had a major sticking problem while attempting to remove a loaf from the brotform.  The process of detaching the dough from the brotform caused the loaf to spread out more than desired but it came back with some impressive oven spring, so no harm done. 

Since we have a partial loaf of other bread that is already in use, it may be a few days before I cut into this one to see what the crumb looks like.

So, why this bread instead of the CB bread?  Well, in effect, this style bread is a precursor to what became deli-style rye bread in the U.S.  Leader's formula doesn't call for any seeds, so all of the flavor is from the flours and the fermentation.  It's a relative, if you will, from the Old World.

Update - Here’s a picture of the crumb:


It’s fairly uniform with a few larger cells.  The texture is quite firm, thanks to the bread flour.  In the mouth, it is moist with a light sour tang.  The bread makes a delightful ham sandwich, which is what I enjoyed for lunch today.  

Since I’m already a bit off topic with the above bread, let me share a Double Chocolate Rye Banana bread with you:


The only flour in it is whole rye flour that I milled.  You really want to make this. 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Great job!

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

to the past. I like the old world ways and the how it relates to my current SD approach. I was thinking of a Pan au levain version with a rye sour would be my next step going forward. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Beautiful loaf Paul, I can’t wait to see the crumb.

Benny

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

It was a great idea to celebrate the extended family and a great bake, too. It looks like it will have a nice light crumb. Will you post another pic when you cut into it? I've never made one at a higher hydration and am interested to see. Thank you!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I like to look of this bread. I have Daniel Leader's Local Bread book and find it very interesting, almost a travel guide of bread history. As yet I haven't baked any of his recipes. Nice bake. I am interested to see the crumb shot in due course.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Lovely loaf Paul, I like how it opened up, you wouldn't know that it is 25% rye, it looks like any other wholemeal sourdough at 25% with an ear.

Your double chocolate rye banana bread looks really delicious.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

CLICK HERE to see a compilation of all of my Rye Bakes during the CB.

Bake #4

A repeat of Bake #3, Hamelman’s 40% Rye. The hydrations was upped to 70%, but 68% may be my sweet spot. Added 0.4% diastatic malt and increased the Chocolate Malt (N/D) from 1% to 2%. It darkened the loaf and crumb more, but the jury is still out on this change. At this time the flavor seems a liitle nicer on the previous bake, but I think that will change as the loaf ages in the next day or two. NOTE - the salt on the crust is a real treat and adds a blast of flavor. It doesn’t take much coarse kosher salt to do the trick.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

The colour of the crumb is very inviting.  Dan how is the crumb for you now, is it still dry or more moist?

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, I haven’t had the dry crumb problem since baking Hamelman’s 40% rye (bakes #3 & 4). I am careful to not over bake the bread, thinking that may have had something to do with it.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Phil Agnew, also known as PiPs on TFL, was an early contributor and both an outstanding baker and photographer from Brisbane.  His version used fresh milled rye, and at 73%, pushed the envelope on hydration.  The other day someone posted their rye with a chevron score, which reminded me of Phil's posting, squirreled away deep in the back of my formula book.

Along with the Hamelman version at 40%, these are the most flavorful of all the rye breads I've baked so far.  The scoring of this wet dough leaves a lot to be said, but good eating out-votes good looks at my dining table.

Two roads led me to believe I know the errors of my ways with this formula.  Firstly, fresh milled grain is thirstier than the packaged version, hence my dough is seemingly more slack than Phil's version.  I tried the Dan concept of developing the gluten in the white flour first, which provided me with a low hydration somewhat impenetrable ball of dough to then incorporate the rye sour into.  This in itself was surprisingly difficult and there were numerous hand and scraper dips in water in order to manipulate the dough in the mixing bowl and scraping down of the bowl sides.  I'm certain this introduced another 1-2% hydration, making the task of getting the dough to later behave itself even more difficult.

Again, I have nothing but admiration for the taste, but the poor little thing looks like an aberration compared to Phil's sterling composition.

40%PFF, 40% Rye, 73% hydration (but somewhere higher in my version).  750g x 1 batard.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Wow that is an amazing crumb for 40% rye, very nice!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Oh, and regarding incorporating stiff wheat dough and rye preferment, using lamination helped me a lot - stretching the wheat flour dough and folding in the rye sour. Then you still need to mix it to homogeneity by hand, but that was totally doable.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

even my gloves into a sticky levain.  For all of these bakes, I've been using the mixer, something I really don't use much.  Beyond the incorporation of the levain into the ball of dough, I really didn't see much of a gain from autolysing and trying to mix just the flour and water, as Dan outlined vs. what I was doing before.  Still worth a try.

Aside from the shaping and scoring, I'm also pleased with the crumb.  And the flavor is heavenly!

Thanks, alan

Benito's picture
Benito

I agree with Ilya, Alan that is outstanding crumb at 40% rye, glorious baking.

Benny

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I was quite pleased with the crumb.  That loaf is now history, the last of it gobbled down as toast at breakfast.  That 40% range seems to be a sweet spot.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Not to mention the artistic and, unique scoring! Smile... Bonus, you don't have to be Jewish to love it! 

alfanso's picture
alfanso

I close my eyes when I eat this loaf!  Religion to love it?  I'm into Tasmanian Devil Worship and I still love this bread!

Benito's picture
Benito

I decided to bake this again, partially because it is a good bread but also because I wanted to see if pushing bulk further would reduce the splitting in the sides of the crust.  Someone posted that the splits occur if the dough is a bit underproofed.  So for this bake I pushed bulk much further maybe about 50% further, although it is hard to say because the dough temperature was low due to the proofing box being full with another dough.

The proof was definitely pushed because you can see the oven spring wasn’t as great as the first time and the bread spread somewhat in the dutch oven.  The sides didn’t split though so I do think that you can minimize that splitting by pushing bulk, but I do think I pushed it a bit too far.

I may not be able to post a crumb photo because this loaf will be gifted.

alfanso's picture
alfanso
Benito's picture
Benito

OK now that I’ve seen Fat Man I definitely see the resemblance.  I did the Dr. Snyder glaze this time pre and post bake and man it is ever shiny.

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

When can I expect it to arrive at my door?

Benito's picture
Benito

Any minute now Don.

Happy Holidays sir.

Benny

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I am hoping for a safe holiday anyway. Things aren't so happy on this side of the fence right now. Keep up the nice bakes that help spread the joy! and stay safe.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Benny, have you come to a conclusion as to how much rise in the aliquot jar is best for these 40% rye loaves?

Benito's picture
Benito

Let me preface this to say that I’ve only baked these rye loaves twice and each with using Eric’s formula which I believe has only 29% rye and uses a IDY boost.  Also I didn’t use an aliquot jar since doubling is so large a volume increase that I didn’t think it needed the precision of the aliquot jar like trying to hit 20% rise for baguettes.

I think the first bake I hit 100% and I thought it was excellent except for the cracks/splits on the sides.  In my second bake it probably went 125-150% rise as it sped along way too fast and I didn’t catch it early enough.  I think it needs to bulk just over 100% would be my guess.

Benito's picture
Benito

My friend sent me a couple of photos of the crumb.  Pretty good.  I really need to try the sautéed onions next time.

isand66's picture
isand66

Can’t get much better crumb than this! Lucky friend indeed?

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Ian.

Happy Holidays!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Looks good Benny. Nice bake. You have lucky friends.

 

Benito's picture
Benito

Thank you Gavin, however, I can’t unsee that line of raw flour from not brushing enough off while shaping.

Benny

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I didn't notice it. Looks ok to me. Maybe just lighting and not flour :) 

Cheers,

Gavin

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Don't get white line fever!  When you are folding the dough as in the video, you are introducing a layer of raw flour however slight, between the layers because you are overflowing the counter.  If you wish to try, you can spread a layer of water on the work area with flat palms - just dip your hands in water.  The dough will not stick to the counter and the raw flour will not be present at all.

Benito's picture
Benito

Yes I can see that my lightly flour the counter ended up being more than light especially when I've already floured the side of the dough that is going to land on the counter.  I tried using water several times in the past and had reasonable results, but I found for me that the dough seemed to lose some tension in the skin and compromised oven spring somewhat.  So I switched back to flour.  I've just ended up using too much flour on this rye loaf.  Fortunately my friend doesn't have the eagle eyes that we have here examining the crumb!

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

I've been starting an aliquot jar immediately after mixing with my home milled HWWW + rye adaptation of dmnsnyder's formula without the IDY/CY (admittedly a different bread).  Things move along very rapidly with whole grains and such a large PPF.  I have been creating an aliquot jar immediately after the final mix, shaping shortly thereafter while the dough has good strength, and baking after observing a rise of approximately 1.5x.  I'm happy enough with the end product for my first rye bakes, but would like to improve the height of my free standing loaves.  I know the whole grain bakes are destined to be shorter, but I expect there is significant room for improvement.  In standard whole wheat sourdough bakes, TFL discussions have steered me towards a relatively short (25-50%) bulk fermentation with a cool final proof that goes directly in the oven for fairly reproducible oven spring, especially when combined with a cloche.  I'm curious how rye heavy bakes fit into this approach.  Does anyone have experience applying this scheme to this style of bread?  I'll be doing the final mix for another loaf shortly and wanted to reach out for thoughts.   The first clear formula calls for a rise of 2x.  For comparison, Peter Reinhart's closest rye whole grain formula from WGB calls for a rise of 1.5x, which is what I've been using.  I'm considering shaping the dough into two loaves and baking at 25% and 50% to observe differences, although the single large loaf does make better sandwiches.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Very interesting formula! and it looks delish. I bet that will be amazing and I can't wait to see the crumb shot. Sounds like something that would pair great with a hearty soup or stew. Or a nice cheese.

I see you are using BreadStorm. Great program and I'm afraid to upgrade my Mac for fear it won't be supported anymore. I've been moving all my formulas into spread sheets in anticipation of it not working some day soon :-(

isand66's picture
isand66

You can see the crumb shot on my regular post.

That does suck about BreadStorm.  I take screen shots now of all my formulas.  I used to be able to save them as image files but that stopped working.  It’s going to be real bad when it doesn’t work at all ?

alfanso's picture
alfanso

to put beer in my bread - yet!  But Guinness is as good a choice as there probably is.  A really nice looking loaf - and beat's the pants off that Mookie guy's version from years ago! ;-)

NY Metropolitans jersey #1?

isand66's picture
isand66

Mookies’ is sitting right next to me now and is not happy ?.  He had some choice words for you but he realized this is a G rated site.  Jets and Mets for this long suffering New Yorker!

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Today I made an old bread that is new to me: Corn Bread from George Greenstein’s Secrets of a Jewish Baker. Greenstein uses volume measurements in the book, but I converted them to weights and followed the recipe faithfully, except for these things: 1) KAF pumpernickel (whole organic rye) and KAF bread flours were substituted for white rye and first clear flours and 2) commercial yeast was reduced to a level teaspoon from from a heaping tablespoon. 

The dough is 60% rye flour, half of which is pre-fermented using the 3-stage process. I understood that 60% whole rye would make for a denser loaf than Greenstein intended, but the specified flours aren’t available these days. Plus, whole rye works at 40% in my deli rye, so I was hopeful it would work here, too. The hydration is almost 87% and the dough is described by Greenstein as wet and sloppy, but as long as you keep your hands wet, it’s easy to handle. Bulk took one hour and I can't imagine how fast it would have gone if I hadn't reduced the CY. When it came time to shape the breads and incorporate the caraway seeds, I skipped the seeds because it wasn’t clear to me how they would become distributed throughout the dough at that point. I divided the dough into 2 small boules of about 570g each, but I believe this bread would have benefitted from the extra size and longer bake, so I wish I had made one large loaf. 

The instructions said to flatten the top of the shaped dough and not to let it proof. Greenstein said the dough would spring up in the oven but, in this case, the oven spring was nothing to write home about – which I think that can be chalked up to the whole rye flour, the reduction in CY, and inadequate steam. Both loaves blew out, but the surface of the dough was already splitting open at the 5 minute mark when I opened the oven to vent the steam and stipple the dough. I could already see the crust beginning to harden at that point, so I guess the lava rocks weren’t doing their job.

The crumb was about as dense as expected and perhaps denser than hoped. This is a hearty bread – extremely moist, robust flavor, and very filling. It tastes a lot like deli rye, only more so. For the sake of comparison, I might make it again some day with first clear flour and a blend of white and medium ryes. 

isand66's picture
isand66

The crumb looks pretty good for that amount of rye.  I’m sure if you used the First clear you would get a lighter loaf but this looks tasty.

isand66's picture
isand66

The crumb looks pretty good for that amount of rye.  I’m sure if you used the First clear you would get a lighter loaf but this looks tasty.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

But from the crumb picture it looks pretty good to me, not flat with some decent loft.  And a most appealing looking crumb color.

Benito's picture
Benito

Looks really good to me too AG.  The crumb is what I'd expect for the % rye you're using.  It is a good looking loaf that probably tastes really great.  Nice bake!

Benny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I am interested in the experiences of other bakers that have fermented their rye levain according to Hamelman’s 40% Rye Bread instructions. 5% seed sounds very low, a 1-20 ratio.

  • what percent of seed are you using
  • what temperature are you fermenting
  • how long do you ferment
  • what type of growth rate (rise) should I expect

I ask because I am using whole rye (fresh milled) and the levain doesn’t rise much. It seems the lack of gluten is producing results that I am not familiar with.

just checking...

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

What hydration is your preferment?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I think Hamelman calls for 83% hydration

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

OK, so I haven't tried that exact recipe, but just speaking from experience of using a rye starter, it should definitely have a good rise! I haven't tried freshly milled rye, but whole rye is very good at supporting fermentation. Are you using a rye starter to inoculate it? It's possible switching the flour can give a temporary shock to the yeast and/or LABs, but they should acclimate quickly.

You can use very warm water to speed it up (like 40-50°C works great!). As usual, keeping it warm will help it along too, but will change the flavour, if the recipe doesn't call for a warm ferment.

I wouldn't say lack of gluten affects how the starter performs in terms of rising.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Ilya, I am using a Rye Sour to seed the levain.

” I wouldn't say lack of gluten affects how the starter performs in terms of rising.” I think gluten has everything to do with rise.

The levain is aerated and shows signs of fermentation. It smells mature, but it doesn’t rise too much. I suspect it is the lack of gluten that allows to dough to trap gas. It definitely doubles, but at 83% hydration and rye bran in the mix it is a thick and heavy dough.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Are you fermenting in a tall vessel or in a bowl? In a wide bowl rye won't hold the structure so well, but in a tall jar it can grow way beyond doubling.

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I stayed with Hamelman's formula. My stiff rye starter is 85% hydration so I thought that would not make much difference to the 83% sourdough preferment in the formula. In a 680 gram dough, the sourdough was 100% whole rye flour - 158 gram, 83% water - 131 gram, and 5% stiff rye seed - 8 gram. Fermentation time was 14 -16 hours at 21C. I went for 15 hours at 21C. You will not see much growth externally, but the feel of the fermented rye will be light and sticky.

My submission is at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/66523/community-bake-ny-jewish-bakerydeli-style-rye-breads#comment-475582

Cheers,

Gavin.

albacore's picture
albacore

Look at this example of a 2 stage Detmolder. The 1st stage has a 1:36 seed ratio! Note this is a translation from German - the starter or Anstellgut as the Germans call it has been translated as "items"

Lance

alfanso's picture
alfanso

a 3% inoculation!  I like the action in the second stage.  I only use 1 type of rye flour - stone ground dark, so whatever it will come out as, so be it...  Meanwhile I still have a stockpile of rye from these backs waiting for  morning toasting sessions.

alfanso's picture
alfanso

licate

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I mix to Hamelman's 83% but sometimes add a few drops of water if it feels too compacted to breathe. It doesn't rise much but it gets a little puffy with a slightly rounded top when it's good to go and it has a nice fermented smell.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Your description is what I am seeing. How long and at what temp are you fermenting Hamelman's levain for the 40% rye?

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