2nd sourdough loaf - what went wrong?
I made the Beginner Sourdough recipe from The Perfect Loaf and had some issues, as you can see.
After 4 hours of bulk fermentation at 78-80 degrees, the dough had risen substantially and showed plenty of bubbles on the surface. However it does not show the signs of strength the recipe talks about - the edges were not pulling away from the bowl, and it didn't hold it's shape very long after stretch-and-folds. At 4 hours, thinking the dough was not strong enough, I did another gentle stretch and fold and let the dough ferment for an additional hour, after which it had risen more and again had showed bubbles on the surface.
After this, pre-shaping and shaping went ok. The dough held it's rounded edges during bench rest:
I ended up with a shaped loaf that felt airy and bouncy as you can see in this gif.
I proofed in the fridge for 16 hours (in a covered mixing bowl lined with parchment). But after baking, I got only a little oven spring, the score barely opened, and the crust shows very large surface bubbles and uneven color. The bread is decent for eating, nice subtle flavor and the crumb is certainly edible. But it's not what I'm going for.
I don't think over-hydration was the problem. I already had adjusted the recipe down from 78% to 76% hydration.
I am using Giusto's Artisan Bread Flour, which has 11.5% protein, and KA White Whole Wheat for the 20% whole wheat portion. Since this is lower than most bread flour, do I need to adjust the recipe (longer autolyse? more stretch-and-folds?) to compensate?
Any thoughts on what went wrong? Did extending bulk fermentation too long result in an overproofed loaf? Do I need to strengthen the dough more agressively early in bulk? Or just use a more traditional higher-protein bread flour while I'm a beginner at all this?
I think your instincts are right! You may be a beginner, but you're thinking about all the right things. I think you're fine to keep using the flour you have. It's great flour! You can absolutely make wonderful sourdough bread with it.
I would try a combination of the things you suggested for your next attempt:
Lower the hydration further. Go as low as 70%. (You can always raise it later)
A longer mix up front (like you suggested) to develop the gluten more, so you're not forced to push the bulk too far.
Also, if you can get your hands on a banneton (+ rice flour), I'd recommend it. It really does make all of the proofing stuff much easier
Keep it up! You are absolutely on the right path here, and will soon be making bread you love!
Thanks for the suggestions! So you would not suggest additional doing additional stretch & folds, but rather just a longer autolyse and lower hydration for now?
Banneton has been ordered - should be here in time for next weekend's bake.
I wasn’t recommending a longer autolyse, although I don’t think it would hurt (and could likely help).
I was recommending you mix the dough to a further level of gluten development when you do perform your mix (the start of bulk).
You could definitely also add a set of stretch and folds. I used to often S&F in the first 2 hours at 30 min intervals.
If you’re interested, you might also check out coil folds as an alternative to S&F (see FullProof Baking on instagram).
That crumb looks pretty great to me – and far beyond what most people get on their first bakes! At this point, it’s just cosmetic stuff you’re shooting for (which, I totally understand!)
UPDATE: Here's the crumb - in case this helps diagnose the problem:
Flavor is actually pretty good. My family will happily eat this over the next few days, but of course it's not what I'm shooting for.
Before reading the comments, and especially after seeing your jiggly loaf, my first thought was over-proofing. That will cause the structure of the dough to degrade a bit and will also lessen the oven spring. A little more gluten development during the initial mixing would not hurt.
I found that the videos of Trevor J. Wilson were extremely helpful in getting me to recognize when I had mixed the dough enough (and to know that I had more to go). I mix until I get a feel of the dough developing some strength.
My general suggestion is that you do nearly exactly what you did the first time, but (a) mix a little more for better gluten, (b) trust that if you are seeing bubbles (especially big bubbles) at the surface of the dough your bulk fermentation has gone long enough, and (c) perhaps do a slightly shorter final proofing in the fridge (something like ten to twelve hours -- not all refrigerators are 38 F).
If you do the bulk fermentation in a transparent container (I have a 12 quart Cambro tub), you will be able to see the bubbles forming on the bottom and sides of the container. You can watch these increase in number as the bulk fermentation stage progresses.
Sounds like you are on the way to a fine loaf next time (and this one wasn't as bad as you might think).
Happy baking -- and stay safe and stay healthy.
Ted
Hi oakster, I’ve made this same recipe many times when I started baking sourdough bread last year many times to get it right. Things finally improved when I realized that I forgot to subtract the hold back water from the water I added to the autolyze and when I added slap and fold to build structure and strength early on as part of the stage when adding the levain, holdback water and salt.
Extending the bulk fermentation an extra hour as you did allows more acid to be produced by the bacteria which has the effect of degrading the gluten structure and weakening the strength of your dough. It sounds like your dough was nicely fermented on schedule with Maurizio’s recipe based on your description, it just needed more structure built early on. For some reason, I find unless I use slap and folds or lamination, I never get the structure that Maurizio gets with just his stretch and folds.
Benny
Thanks, everyone, for the comments! This was my first post on the forum, and as a newbie to this hobby I am blown away at how helpful and encouraging everyone is being.
I'm trying to synthesize all the advice. Here are the suggestions I'm seeing, plus some questions:
So now I just need to decide which of these to try next weekend. Should I do everything on this list? Or are some of them interdependent - for example, if I strengthen the dough enough to end bulk fermentation earlier (at 4 rather than 5 hours), should I still shorten the cold proof from 16 to 12 hours?
And if so, what is the best schedule for a 12-hour cold proof? I guess I'd need to do a morning leaven, rather than overnight, since I would need to shape after 8pm to be able to bake after just 12 hrs in the fridge.
Don't overlook the gluten development that occurs during the initial mixing. The S&F are important too, but if you have not done a decent job of gluten development during the initial mixing your dough will not be as strong. That is why I suggested watching some of Trevor J. Wilson's videos. When I lengthened the time and effort put into the initial mixing, my dough got much stronger, was easier to shape later on, and had much better oven spring.
All of the other things in your list are good too.
Happy baking.
Ted
Yes, thank you Ted. This is what I was trying to impress upon you, Oakster, when I said “I was recommending you mix the dough to a further level of gluten development when you do perform your mix (the start of bulk)“
Not (just) the stretch and folds. The actual initial mix.
Thanks - I just checked out his video on mixing wet dough. I'm definitely going to try that this weekend.
To build gluten in low protein flour you make a wetter starter mix using ~2/3 the flour and 3/4 the water. You mix it vigorously. Fast and hard. This builds the gluten well. Then add the rest and go as normal.
I use this method to make bouncy bread from ANYTHING when Ive run out of bread flour.
thanks. :)
That is interesting, I've never read that anywhere, great tip and thanks for sharing.
Benny
Put a glass of water in overnight, checked with thermapen in the morning. 38 degrees exactly.
Results of my 3rd loaf (still issues to work out) are here