Sourdough #3 - more troubleshooting
Thanks again for all the help in my previous post about my 2nd sourdough loaf.
Based on the advice in that thread, I made the same recipe again this weekend - the Perfect Loaf beginner sourdough.
As before, I used 80% Giusto's artisan bread flour and 20% KA White Whole Wheat flour.
I tweaked the technique in the following ways:
- I lowered the hydration to 74% (the recipe calls for 78%)
- I did 10 minutes of this scooping/mixing method after incorporating the leaven and salt, to add strength to the dough
- I did 4 sets of stretch and folds at 30-minute intervals, rather than 3 as called for by the recipe
- I reduced the cold proof from 16 to 12 hours
- I finally got a banneton so used that for the overnight proof rather than a mixing bowl like last time.
The result was still disappointing - a better crust than last time (crisp and crackling, rather than soft and squishy) but the crumb was actually worse, a few big holes but much denser than last time.
The dough handled ok on the bench but did feel looser than last time. It spread quite a bit during the bench rest but the edges remained curved rather than flush with the board, so I thought it was ok.
For the final shaping, it felt fairly slack, like it was easy to stretch but wasn't offering much resistance, so I didn't feel like I was building much tension into the loaf.
Would love any thoughts on what to tweak for next time. Did I overproof? Underproof? Understrengthen? Pictures and details follow:
ABOVE: This is the dough at the end of bulk fermentation. It grew approximately 40-50% (the recipe recommended 20-50% volume increase). There was not significant bubble formation on the top of the dough, just a few small bubbles, and it again did not show the signs of strength the recipe refers too, like separating from the container walls a bit at the top of the dough.
Bulk fermentation lasted a total of 4.5 hours. The initial dough temperature was 75 F, but it warmed up to 78 within an hour and stayed that temp for the duration.
ABOVE: View from above at the end of bulk. A few small bubbles visible on surface, and a hole where I took the temp.
ABOVE: This is the dough at the start of bench rest after preshaping.
ABOVE: Another view at the start of bench rest.
ABOVE: Dough at the end of the 25-minute bench rest
ABOVE: In the banneton right after shaping.
Here's a video to show the jiggle-level of the shaped loaf.
ABOVE: 12 hours later right before baking.
Actually, it all looks pretty good. Nice crust, nice oven spring, nice ears, and a good crumb. So what more are you looking for?
If anything, you'll develop a more consistent crumb over time as you tweak hydration level, and get the folding procedure (that you do immediatley prior to shaping) more consistent so it pops any large bubbles.
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Is this the flour you're using? http://giustos.com/home_baker/flours/bread-flours/artisan-unbleached-malted-bread-flour.html
Yes, that's the flour I'm using. The crust on this loaf looks pretty good, but despite those few big holes, the crust is very dense and heavy - easily the most dense and least enjoyable loaf of the three I've made so far. My previous two sourdough loaves were less pretty and had a worse crust, but my family and I all agreed they had a better crumb and made for better eating. The photos may be deceiving - but sadly this loaf is edible but not very good.
I'm looking for a lighter, more open crumb and better oven spring with a more rounded shape - vs the fairly flat profile you see here.
the flour Maurizio uses, BRM, doesn't give a protein percent, but keeps calling it "high protein" and Maurizio describes it as chewy. So it's probably up around 13%. (You can't go by the official one-serving nutritional info because of rounding errors in 36 g sample size.)
Your lower protein flour requires less water than a "high protein" flour, so try 71% overall hydration next time.
Net result: Your flour is not really a good substitute for Maurizio's recipe. So adjustments will have to be made.
Your flour is a winter wheat, and BRM is likely a spring wheat, so just adding Vital Wheat Gluten won't make your flour equivalent. There is more about flour than protein that comes into play.
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Next: you're leaving out 5% rye, and subbing in white WW. That's better than subbing in white flour, but still misses the mark. 5% rye is enough to affect enzymes and fermentation.
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about your starter. How long has it been since it started to "double reliably" after feeding? (I don't mean that first burst followed by several days of mere small bubbles.) It could still be not-mature, not-balanced. Since this is the third bake, I suspect it hasn't matured/balanced yet. "Doubling reliably" does not necessarily mean mature and strong. Nor does the floar test. Those are mere rules of thumb.
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Please describe your oven, baking setup, times and temps. Your crust looks a little too dark for the crumb. Have you checked the oven's temp setting against a separate oven thermometer or infrared-thermo-gun?
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I'm tempted to suggest increasing the levain to make up for the immature starter, and lack of rye, but as the starter matures that will take care of itself.
I think the main challenge to get the crumb you want is to use less water, and maybe go for a longer but cooler bake time,but I need to know how you're baking it now.
The pre-shape folding, and the shape itself also has a big effect on the crumb.
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have you taken the internal temp of the loaf at the end of the bake? if so, what is it ?
All good question!
Correct - I'm leaving out the rye because I haven't been able to find it - flour is hard to come by these days! I will continue keeping an eye out.
I was given the mature starter from a friend who has been baking incredible sourdough for years. It reliably increases well over 2x in volume after feeding (close to 3x, actually).
I bake in an unenameled cast-iron dutch oven at 450F, 20 minutes with the lid on, then 20-30 more with lid off. I use an oven thermometer to confirm temperatures. I let the bread rest 3 hours before slicing.
I have been turning out consistently good no-knead commercial yeast bread with this setup before this foray into sourdough - great oven spring, crust, and crumb. This was my most recent no-knead bread:
Consensus after my previous attempt was that I under-strengthened and possibly over-proofed, so I cut the proof shorter this time. I guess maybe I overcorrected?
Anyhow, I do recognize that my lower-protein bread flour and lack of rye are a departure from the recipe, which is why I asked for advice last time - the advice was to add in further strengthening and lower the hydration. Do you think I should just try a different recipe next time? Any suggestions?
When you make the levain, are you mixing the seed starter with 1/2 white flour, and 1/2 WW?
And when you make the levain, is the seed starter recently fed? ( within 4 hours room temp, or within 24 hrs in fridge since previous feeding.)
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I think you can still tweak Maurizio's recipe. You're good on the overall concepts, but are still getting your feet wet with sourdough, learning how commercial yeast translates to sourdough. (Normally I would say start with a recipe that better matches your ingredients, but you are so close to your goal on this one, I don't want to side-track you.)
Net recommendations: lower overall net hydration to 71%, increase levain by 20 grams (from Maurizio's 184 to 204 g per 1 kg flour), and go the full proof time in the fridge. But also don't exceed the growth% Maurizio says to do in the bulk, ie, watch the dough, not the clock. And bake the loaf straight from the fridge.
After taking the starter out of the fridge, I feed once after it's warmed up (1-2 hrs out of the fridge), then give two more feeds at 12-hour intervals which is about how long it takes to peak at my room temp. I am feeding at peak - meaning after it has reached peak height, flattened out, and just started to take a concave shape on the surface (but before it starts to drop and leave streaks on the jar).
I then use the seed starter to mix the levain at this same stage - when the starter has peaked, become slightly concave, but not started to fall.
I did use 50/50 white and whole wheat to mix the levain, per the recipe, and similarly used it when it was full of bubbles, peaked, slightly concave on the surface, but not yet beginning to fall. It did pass the float test.
"but despite those few big holes, the crust is very dense and heavy - easily the most dense and least enjoyable loaf of the three I've made so far. "
This loaf had a shorter proof, so I'm suspecting it was under-fermented. In addition to the shorter proof, the possibly weak starter, and the lack of rye (enzymes to boost fermentation) , would also cause under-proofing.
Maurizio's recipe has a low amount of starter (for a mostly white flour loaf) to begin with, something like 9.2% pre-fermented flour. (the flour in the levain, divided by the total flour.) 184 g of 100% hydration levain = 92 g flour. 92 / 1000 = 9.2% .... Therefore, he is relying on a sufficiently long bulk ferment and final proof, along with the enzyme boost from the WW and the rye. (He "says" something like 7.5%, but if you do the calculations based on flour weights, it's actually 9.2.)
Check your grocery stores to see if you can find some BRM rye, preferably dark or whole meal.
That, the lower hydration, and when your starter gets to 3 or 4 weeks since the "reliably doubling point" will bring your bread in line with what you want.
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Also, don't slice open until at least 10 to 12 hours after removing from oven. That will greatly improve taste