March 6, 2019 - 5:41pm
Yet another attempt to replicate classic SF SD. Pending bake.
This is a bit of a teaser ... or a heads up.
I got another recipe for San Francisco Sourdough today via a FB forum. This one is 3rd hand from a 30 year baker for Parisian and Boudin bakeries in San Francisco. He is now retired and bakes bread at home. The provided formula is adapted for home baking.
It is attested to be authentic by two other experienced home bakers, so I am optimistic. I have seen photos and videos of the results and they look very much like the breads of yesteryear!
It will be at 2 or 3 days from now before I have results to report. If it works as well as I expect, I will provide both the recipe as given to me and my adaptation.
David
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David, waiting with baited breath.
I don't think bait is necessarily the right approach here. ?
(Imagining you with peanut butter spread on your lips and a little piece of cheese between your teeth) ☺️
Ping.
Curious to see what you come up with.
David, This will be a treat. Wondering if the bake will be similar to a Larraburu Late Bake SF Sourdough?
Waiting with anticipation,
Wild-Yeast
It occurred to me after a bit of research online about Larraburu that with its sudden closure there had to have been a number of very experienced bakers looking for work. They likely would have been gobbled up by Parisian and Boudin among others. Even if this fellow did not formerly work for Larraburu, he probably traded stories with former Larraburu bakers and undoubtedly got some insight into the recipe and process.
Sounds like you are on the right track.
Ted
As you will see, I am following the prescribed methods and the formula, with one exception. I am making a 25% whole wheat version rather than a purely white-flour bread. The latter would be more authentic, but, IMO, less interesting, tasty and nutritious.
At this moment, the dough is 7 hours into its bulk fermentation. It has expanded by around 50%. My kitchen is rather cool today, so I figure it will need another 2 hours or so before it's ready to shape.
Since there is so much interest, I am going to post the formula in my blog. So anyone who wants to try it themselves before seeing my result has an opportunity to do so. The last group bake was so much fun.
Happy baking!
David
I’ll be watching this one...
Danny
Wow, David. What was so amazing about Parisian was the beautiful sourness mixed with a crumb that was fluffy but dense in the most delicious way. Boudin is a tourist trap, and yet they make remarkably good bread. I'd prefer Tartine, Josey Baker or one of the other great bakeries most days, but there's no other bread around with a crust like Boudin, mixed with such light, wispy crumb.
No offense intended, but many times you have said you were going to "replicate San Francisco sourdough" yet you never stick to the recipe, dinking around with rye flour and whole-wheat flour. In the interest of authenticity, why don't you try sticking to the recipe?
The Larraburu formula as posted here by doc.dough explicitly calls for clear flour for the sponge and patent flour for the dough, not WW or rye. Clear flour has been through one sifting. It is a high-extraction flour with lots of bran and germ still in it.
I tried making SFSD with WW flour a few years ago and the flavor just wasn't there. Much better results were had with white wheat flour.
Good luck!
I too would prefer to see (especially in the initial trial of a recipe you haven't done before) a 100% execution of the recipe - exactly what you believe the recipe writer intended by what they wrote, with no concessions to preference, or to modern tastes & opinions.
(Obviously if a recipe omits crucial details those must be filled in somehow, but when it's an attempted historical re-creation, such details should be filled in by a best guess at what the author intended, not by free improvisation.)
Nobody really wants "a modified reinterpretation of how one person wishes Larraburu had made their bread because he obviously believes he knows better than they did". ? I have no doubt that you personally could come up with your own recipe that I would judge superior to their bread; just, this isn't the time for that.
"Nobody really wants 'a modified reinterpretation of how one person wishes Larraburu had made their bread because he obviously believes he knows better than they did'. ? I have no doubt that you personally could come up with your own recipe that I would judge superior to their bread; just, this isn't the time for that."
I agree wholeheartedly.
We are extremely fortunate that the USDA undertook to study the five S.F. bakeries in the late 1960's, and that the bakeries' formulas were as throughly documented as they were, especially Larraburu before the bakery closed in 1976. We are likewise fortunate that doc.dough found the formulas, transcribed them and posted them here.
I am disappointed that today's S.F. bakers and yes, that includes Chad Robertson, Josey Baker and Michel Suas, are not interested in San Francisco's sourdough heritage, their claims to the contrary notwithstanding. I am also disappointed in one bakery in particular which artificially sours its bread to fool tourists and does a poor job of it. Once you taste that lactic-acid tang you don't forget it. Acme sourdough comes close but is milder than the old-school breads.
My mother used to keep loaves of Larraburu in the freezer at our home in Palo Alto. After Larraburu closed in 1976 I remember asking her if she had found a satisfactory substitute for Larraburu. She said she thought Colombo was OK.
All that said, I am very interested to see what dmsnyder posts and to see what he has gleaned from the Parisian and Boudin bakers.
DoughHooker, since you’ve eaten your share of Larraburu SD, I am hoping that you can describe the flavor, texture, and crumb from memory. Not an easy task, I know. From someone who has never tasted any of the SFSD breads, I am curious to get an idea of the famous bread. Would you describe it as favoring acetic or lactic flavors.
Danny
DanAyo:
You have asked me this before and I believe I directed you to my "blog", here:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/49375/san-franciscostyle-sour-bread
If you follow the recipe exactly with no changes or substitutions, you will get a very good idea of what old-school SFSD tasted like. I had to get a digital scale that resolves 1/10 gram so I could measure 1.2 g of lactic acid powder.
I made a loaf a few days ago and it turned out just right! As I say, I remember the flavor well and made many test bakes to get the balance of acids just right. If you are in the bay area you could pick up a loaf of Acme which has an authentic SFSD tang but is a bit milder than Larraburu and the others.
Just for fun I made a new starter using clear flour as called for in the original Larraburu formula. Today I baked my first loaf using this starter and am waiting for it to cool.
Apologies to dmsnyder for the thread drift.
You’re right, I did ask that before and you answered me. Unfortunately for me, you, and others like you, my short time memory is terrible. I could say it comes with age, but I’ve never had a very good memory.
I never did order the lactic acid you advised because I didn’t want to bake with commercial yeast and/or add lactic acid. BUT I am willing to give most things a try. I ordered the Druids Grove Lactic Acid and have plans to bake a loaf following your exact instructions in the hopes that I can sample a bread that taste similar to Larraburu’s SD.
Thanks for the help. I apologize to you and others who are subjected to my poor memory. I will continue to ask question and risk duplicity. I am that interested to learn...
Danny
Oh! Did I say I had a bad memory <LOL>
"I will continue to ask question and risk duplicity." Danny, you might risk duplication, but I doubt that you will be guilty of duplicity. Keep asking those questions. ;)
noun: duplicity
deceitfulness, deceit, deception, deviousness, two-facedness, double-dealing, underhandedness, dishonesty, falseness, falsity, fraud, fraudulence, sharp practice, swindling, cheating, chicanery, trickery, craft, guile, artifice, subterfuge, skulduggery, treachery, unfairness, unjustness, perfidy, improbity; Moreinformalcrookedness, shadiness, foxiness, dirty tricks, shenanigans, monkey business, funny business, hanky-panky;
Dannyinformaljiggery-pokery;
informalmonkeyshines;
informalcodology;
archaicknavery, knavishness, management
"his conscience would not allow him to enter into duplicity
doughooker, you wrote "The Larraburu formula as posted here by doc.dough explicitly calls for clear flour for the sponge and patent flour for the dough ...." I can get first clear flour from King Arthur, but do you know of a source for patent flour? (There also seem to be several grades of patent flour, so please also specify the particular type.) Thanks. Ted
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BCXRH7B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Speedy reply. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
Did you create a separate starter using only clear flour?
Ted
After looking at the Amazon site, reading comments about the re-seller, and doing a bit of surfing, I concluded that my preferred source for patent flour (and some other hard-to-get types) will be New York Bakers, which is run by Stan Ginsberg. Those of you who are members of BBGA should already be familiar with Stan.
The bake was based on a formula provided by a retired Parisian and Boudin employee, not the Galal article.
Clear flour has high ash content and high protein, but not high quality gluten. If you are referring to "First Clear flour," what is available is basically what is left after the patent flour is removed. It is not any longer "sifted." That's not how modern roller mill produced flour is made.
Patent flour today is essentially all purpose flour, just the inner part of the endosperm.
I could have used first clear. I used 25% WW in both the starter and the final dough. Why? Because I make bread to eat, not for a historical museum. If you prefer something different from what I prefer, that's your right, of course. Go make it the way you like it.
David
Bake whatever you prefer to bake. I appreciate you posting the recipe you were given verbatim, which was already above and beyond the call of duty.
Hi dmsnyder -
We are nonetheless looking forward to seeing your recipe as provided by the retired Parisian/Boudin baker.
"Did you create a separate starter using only clear flour?"
Yes. I baked a loaf and it turned out very disappointingly. The starter passed the leuc phase and ripened, but even after it matured it never lost a kind of "sour milk" aroma and lacked the familiar yeasty/lactic acid aroma. I'm giving it another go.
What's odd is that concurrent with the clear flour starter I made another starter using all-purpose flour and it turned out poorly as well. I have a vague idea what might be the cause, but we'll see.
I am not aware of any pineapple trees in San Francisco, Oakland or the Pyrenees mountains, so I refuse to add pineapple juice. Don't even suggest it :)
With a lot of leaves piled very high ?
Whatever you say! ?
As I'm sure you know, pre-acidifying the starter the first day or so is to suppress leuconostoc growth. Several sources I've read stress the importance of starting your starter development at 80ºF. Apparently the warmer temperature accomplishes the same thing. I can look it up, but I believe the need for a high temperature is just for the first day or so.
David
"Pineapples don’t grow on trees"
That's why sourdough bakers in the bay area and the Pyrenees didn't use pineapple juice ;)
?
Hi David, have you posted your results? Waiting with bated breath!
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/59510/another-attempt-produce-san-franciscostyle-sourdough-bread
David