The Fresh Loaf

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Another Attempt to Produce a San Francisco-Style Sourdough Bread: Finally, success!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Another Attempt to Produce a San Francisco-Style Sourdough Bread: Finally, success!

San Francisco Style Sourdough Bread

March, 2019

David Snyder

 

This recipe was kindly shared by Ann Rogers who got it from Mike Giraudo. Mike's recipe is his own adaptation of that of Ramon Padilla,who worked for 30 years as a baker for Parisian and Boudin bakeries in San Francisco.

These are the instructions she provided verbatim, followed by my adaptation, reformulated to make 1000g of dough.
------------------------------------------

Mike Giraudo's Recipe (per Ann Rogers)

250g starter (60% hydration)
600g water
1000g flour
20g salt
Makes two 875g loafs

Mix all ingredients 2 minutes on low speed until mixed, then mix 9 more minutes on next level speed. Then a quick stretch and fold, rest dough 30 mins, then stretch and fold one more time. 

Then cover and let dough rest for about 8 hours at room temp. 

After 8 hours, divide and shape into loafs and then into bannetons or lightly oiled containers, cover- then into the refrigerator for at least 12 - 32 hours. (The longer the time, the more sour the bread)

After refrigeration, place immediately into a pre-heated Dutch oven @475 for 20 mins and then uncover and cook for another 10 mins @450 (or until you like the color of your bread.) Feel free to use all purpose flour, makes for a great crumb. 
-------------------------------------------

David Snyder's Adaptation

Total Dough

 

 

Ingredient

Wt (g)

Bakers' %

Total flour

617

100

AP

463

75

WW

154

25

Water

371

60

Salt

12

2

Total

1000

162

 

Note: The original recipe and the San Francisco Sourdough of yore are 100% low extraction (white) flour. I have modified this by including 25% whole wheat flour, because that is my preference. Besides effects on flavor complexity and nutrition, the anticipated effects would be: 1) A less open crumb, 2) faster fermentation, 3) enhanced acid production.

Note: 15.7% of the flour is pre-fermented. This is less than most sourdough formulas which average 20-25% pre-fermented flour. The effect would be: 1) A longer bulk fermentation, 2) more acid content at the time of dividing and shaping.

Starter

 

 

Ingredient

Wt (g)

Bakers' %

Total flour

84

100

AP flour

63

75

WW flour

21

25

Water

50

60

Active firm starter

21

25

Total

155

185

Note: The 21g of active firm starter consists of 7g water + 10g AP flour + 3g WW flour.

  1. The night before mixing the Final Dough, dissolve the active firm starter in the water.

  2. Add the flours and mix thoroughly.

  3. Cover and ferment at room temperature overnight.

 

Final Dough

 

Ingredient

Wt (g)

AP flour

390

WW flour

130

Water

313

Salt

12

Starter

155

Total

1000

 

Procedures

  1. Place all the ingredients in the bowl of a stand mixer. Mix at Speed 1 for 2 minutes to distribute ingredients then for about 9 minutes at Speed 2 to develop the dough.

  2. Transfer the dough to a lightly floured board.

  3. Do one stretch and fold. Cover the dough and let it rest for 30 minutes.

  4. Do one more stretch and fold and transfer the dough to a clean, lightly oiled bowl.

  5. Cover the bowl and ferment at room temperature for “about8 hours.”

  6. Divide the dough, if smaller loaves are desired, pre-shape into rounds and cover. Let rest for 10-30 minutes.

  7. Shape as boules or bâtards and place in floured bannetons.

  8. Refrigerate for 12-32 hours (The longer the cold retardation, the more sour the final loaf).

  9. Check on degree of proofing. If not sufficiently proofed, remove from refrigerator and proof at room temperature or warmer until adequately proofed. Then procedure to scoring and baking.
  10. Transfer to a peel. Score as desired.

  11. Bake: If baking in Dutch oven, bake at 475ºF covered for 20 minutes, then uncovered at 450ºF for another 10 minutes or until done to satisfaction.

  12. Bake: If baking on the hearth, pre-heat oven at 500ºF for 1 hour with baking stone and steaming apparatus in place. Turn down oven to 460. Load loaf and steam oven. After 15 minutes, remove steam and continue baking for 20-35 minutes, until loaf is baked. (Time depends on size and shape of loaf.)

  13. The bread is done when the crust is nicely colored and the loaf sounds hollow when thumped on the bottom. The internal temperature should be at least 205ºF.

  14. Transfer the bread to a cooling rack and cool thoroughly before slicing.

 Note: I retarded this loaf for about 15 hours. At the end of that time, it was nowhere near adequately proofed. I placed it in my proofing box set to 80ºF and proofed it for another 2.5 hours, the last hour while my oven pre-heated. You can see from the overly exuberant oven spring and bloom that the loaf was still somewhat under-proofed. I baked it on a pizza stone, as described in Step 12., above, for a total of 50 minutes.

 

I had a couple slice ... well, three ... but one was very thin! The crust was delightfully crunchy. The crumb was pretty open for a 60% hydration, 25% whole grain bread. It was very well aerated, demonstrating good fermentation. The crumb was moderately chewy. The flavor was a bit wheaty and sweet with a moderately prominent acetic acid tang, yet well-balanced. It has the old-fashioned San Francisco Sourdough feel - the genuine article. It's just what I would imagine Parisian "Wharf Bread" to have been like, if they had baked a "whole wheat" version.

I shared my results with Ann Rogers and Mike Giraudo, and Ann reiterated that, if I wanted it more sour, I should just extend the cold retardation to 32 hours (or more!) I am going to do it.

This is a keeper. It is the bread I have been trying to make for many years. I would encourage those who miss the San Francisco Sourdough Bread of yesteryear or just wonder what all the fuss is about, to make this. It's simple and easy and delicious.

 Happy Baking!

David

Comments

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

for sure.  till don't like the hydration but it is what it is and hopefully will make some great bread!

mikedilger's picture
mikedilger

Thanks for posting this. I'll have to give this a try.

To attempt to get the most accurate result, I'll be using the white flour recipe. I'll also fork a 60% hydration starter on just white flour and start feeding every 12 hours for about a week so it can settle into it's new equilibrium. I wonder if I should hold it at 10C each night (SF baking institute does this).  Building it as a stage might adjust the LAB:yeast ratio but doesn't give time for other population equilibrium effects to kick in.

So.. might be awhile before I actually bake any bread using this recipe.

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

David, what would you estimate the room temp of a bakery in SanFran? Is 80 about right? With an hour or so of stretch and fold, the dough is set to ferment about 9 hours. As you know, temperature for this length of tme will be important.

I’m not jumping in on this one right away. I will await your results.

Anxiously waiting...

Danny

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I don't know the ambient temperature in a 1950's SF commercial bakery. The only experience I have personally is at the San Francisco Baking Institute and in a few bakeries where the ovens were in an area open to the sales areas. In all of those, the temperature was probably 70 ± 5ºF.

I'll be baking the bread in a few hours. It will have been retarding for about 18 hours. I don't know yet whether I will feel it needs some additional proofing time in a warmer environment.

David

David R's picture
David R

I guess adjusting for ambient temperature is the least of your worries, if the recipe itself turns out to be more or less right. 🙂

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Good question.  SF is known for being chilly all the time.  Picture fog blowing past you as you shiver at a 4th of July BBQ.  The bakery was in a chilly location.  But perhaps it was heated or warmed by the ovens.  With 16% prefermented flour, 8 hours seems about right at 70 F, but I've not tried such a long warm bulk.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Thanks for the report! But when you described the flavor, “moderately prominent acetic acid tang”, it made me wonder. If the Galal article stipulated an ambient BF and a proof @ 105F, how could it have acetic tang without retardation? I would think that the Galal bread and this bake would produce very different sours.

Please describe the target flavor profile of the authentic Larraburu SD bread.

Thanks for experimenting and sharing with us.

Danny

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have followed the Galal article precisely. It had no perceptible tang. Others who also baked it got similar results. It was not very good bread. I ended up tossing most of it.

This posting is not about Larraburu bread. It is one baker's adaptation for home baking of Parisian Bakery sourdough bread. 

All San Francisco Sourdough of the past did not taste exactly the same. What most had in common was a preponderance of acetic acid flavor. This is the sharp, sour flavor that most folks associated with San Francisco Sourdough. I have no specific recollection of Larraburu's flavor. There are others here who may be able to answer your question. My family generally bought Parisian sourdough bread. It had a crunchy crust when very fresh that got chewy after a few hours. It was moderately sour.

David

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

cioppino stew or clam chowder in the baby!  Without the WW I bet yo wold have nailed the classic White SD too

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Since posting this bake, I have had communications from Ann Rogers, Mike Giraudo and Ramon Padilla. As we say, "The thick plottens!"

So, Ann asked that I edit my OP to give Mike credit for the recipe, not her. I have done so.

Mike told me that his recipe is significantly modified from what Ramon bakes at home. His description of Ramon's method has me a bit mystified, because I can't see how it would produce very sour bread. But, then ...

At this very moment, I am in a prolonged message exchange with Ramon. So, more to come!

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I had an extended series of FB messages and a long phone (VoIP) conversation with Ramon Padilla today. He is quite a fellow. In brief, he started working for the Parisian Bakery at 18 years old until they closed and then worked at Boudin until he retired. He was the baker, originally at Parisian, who was responsible for making bread for The Tadich Grill. (That is currently the best example of classic San Francisco Sourdough Bread. In my opinion, it's the best ever. Ramon told me it was basically Parisian's formula, but baked darker, in the Larraburu style.) Incidentally, Ramon's brother is presently Head Baker at Boudin, and he is now responsible for The Tadich Grill's bread.

The bread that Ramon bakes at home now uses a technique very much like that described in the Galal article, except he does everything at room temperature. He says his bread is not as "spicy" (sour) as Boudin's. He generously shared a number of tips, and I am going to bake my next breads using his methods. The only modification I will make is to include a small percentage of whole grain flours - less than the bread in this blog entry.

My starter is activating. I will mix the firm starter tonight and mix the final dough in the morning.

David

syros's picture
syros

David, the bread looks amazing. And I am anxiously waiting to see how the next one turns out. currently my starter is at 100% hydration. How long do you think it would take to get it to 60%. I’m still a newbie at this so, bear with me. Love your bakes and details. Thank you!

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Others may think different, but I go back and forth in a single feed.

I am nterested to hear from others on this.

Dan

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I usually do it in one feed. If converting from 100% to 50 or 60% hydration, I just mix to the final hydration and withhold a bit of water or add a bit of flour to get the "right" consistency. However, if you want to be compulsively precise, read this:

Converting starter hydrations: A Tutorial. Or through thick and thin and vice versa

David

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

Yes, you've captured the crumb as it would have looked in WW!  I'm interested to know how well it keeps at such low hydration.  Parisian didn't go stale quickly as I recall.  Thanks for all your efforts in curating this bread.  I will be trying it for sure.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Well, I had a couple slices for breakfast just now. It is not as moist as when 1 day old, but not really "stale."

David

doughooker's picture
doughooker

"a moderately prominent acetic acid tang"

Acetic acid is vinegar. Are you saying it tasted vinegary?

"What most had in common was a preponderance of acetic acid flavor."

"I have no specific recollection of Larraburu's flavor."

I do. Sorry to contradict you, but Larraburu definitely did not have "a preponderance of acetic acid flavor". That would have made it taste vinegary, which Larraburu did not. Having worked directly with these acids I can tell you with 200% certainty that the predominant flavor came from lactic acid, not acetic acid. Lactic acid has sort of a "sour-cream" flavor.

I have stated many times here that Acme sourdough has the same distinctive lactic-acid tanginess as Larraburu and all the rest, only milder, so my memory of the taste of old-school SD is fairly recent, not decades old.

Next time you're in San Francisco, you owe it to yourself to pick up some Acme sourdough to refresh your memory of what old-school SFSD tasted like.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I don't recall the taste of Larraburu Bros. bread, if I ever ate it. But I do remember Parisian very well, because I have eaten a lot of it. And I can compare it to Boudin, which I have also had. If Acme is very similar to Larraburu, it has more of a lactic acid presence and less acetic acid than Parisian did and much less than Boudin which I find excessive.

If you want to taste my personal concept of "old-school SFSD," eat at Tadich Grill. Boudin makes their bread today, but the recipe was developed at Parisian. Tadich's bread has the same acid balance as Parisian's did, it's just that the crust is more boldly baked, an improvement I think.

Point is, all the "old-school SFSD" bakeries did not make bread that was precisely the same. I'm sad I didn't experience Larraburu Bros.' bread when I had the chance.

David

doughooker's picture
doughooker

"If you want to taste my personal concept of 'old-school SFSD,' eat at Tadich Grill."

I have. The bread was sour and enjoyable, but it was not overtly vinegary (acetic acid) nor did it have the familiar (to me) lactic-acid tanginess I associate with SFSD. To be sure, it was a different bread than I had at one of Boudin's shoppes which WAS overtly vinegary. This makes me curious as to whether either product is made the old-fashioned way using a culture.

Given the long, long proofing times required for old-school — 8 hours for the sponge and 8 hours for the dough — it wouldn't surprise me if the bakeries were artificially souring the breads and cutting the proofing times. This is what Gelson's markets did with their sourdough and I write about it in my blog here. The thing to do if you're really curious is to sneak a piece of bread out of Tadich's and send it to a laboratory for analysis.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I promise you, Boudin is letting the LAB's not the labs make their acids.

My bio-sensors (taste buds) may not be as precise as yours, but Tadich Grill's bread tastes very much like the old Parisian SF SD. Maybe just a bit more sour (acetic acid). But, I find it a pleasing balance of flavors.

The long proofing times you describe was Larraburu's method, as described in the Galal article. Without documentation of first hand reporting, I would not assume that the other old bakeries followed exactly the same routine. But, you know what? I can ask Ramon Padilla, who baked for Parisian and Boudin for 30 years.

David

doughooker's picture
doughooker

"into the refrigerator for at least 12 - 32 hours."

I wonder why this step is carried out in the refrigerator rather than at room temperature.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doughooker, “"into the refrigerator for at least 12 - 32 hours." I wonder why this step is carried out in the refrigerator rather than at room temperature.”

Wouldn’t you think the dough would degrade and turn to slop if it was fermented that long at RT? Prior to this the dough was BF for 8 hours or more.

In my quest for a lactic sourdough, I push the warm temp and extend the fermentation times as much as possible. But there is a fine line between long ferments at warm temps and completely overdoing it. The dough breaks down and turns to soup. In my experience, the qualities of the flour is vital. Most flours fail. Note - I only use white flour for this bread.

doughooker's picture
doughooker

"Wouldn’t you think the dough would degrade and turn to slop if it was fermented that long at RT?"

Right, but the microbes are more active at room temp than in the fridge, so you could get away with a shorter proof, wouldn't you think?

At some point the LABs must become exhausted and cease producing acid.

Note also that the SFSD sponge formulae call for approximately 50% hydration whereas this formula calls for a sponge at 60% hydration.

Could somebody please check my math?

Larraburu:

100 flour

50 water

50 previous sponge

= 50% hydration, correct?

"Other"

100 flour

46 - 52 water

100 previous sponge

~ 50% hydration, correct?

doughooker's picture
doughooker

"there is a fine line between long ferments at warm temps and completely overdoing it. The dough breaks down and turns to soup."

I had that happen the first time I ever proofed a loaf. It was sort of a "dry run" and I wasn't regulating the temp or minding the time. I just stuck an incandescent light bulb in the oven and closed the oven door. But oh my, the aroma of the lactic acid! I baked it and it had a wonderful lactic-acid sour but the texture was unacceptable.

Have you discovered that "fine line" between temp and proofing time? Why aren't your loaves turning out to your satisfaction?

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doughooker, For my taste (lactic sour) I am very satisfied with Teresa Greenway’s formula and method for SFSD. IMO, no other SFSD I’ve baked compares to it.

I can almost hear the next question. If you are so satisfied why are you interested in Larraburu? I am inquisitive. Having never tasted any California SD and hearing about how good the Larraburu bread taste makes me curious. I am an eternal student.

Danny

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Doughooker “But oh my, the aroma of the lactic acid! I baked it and it had a wonderful lactic-acid sour but the texture was unacceptable.”

I have never eaten a bread that was too sour for my taste. But I wholeheartedly agree with you. The best tasting SD that I have had was dense, over proofed, and sorry looking. BUT boy! Did it taste good.

That is why I am so particular about the flour I use. Most all flours breakdown before the lactic flavor kicks in. I’ve tried many flours and various protein levels. I’ve paid the shipping to get Central Milling, etc, etc.. The very best flour I’ve found (a tip from Teresa) for long and warm fermentation is Morbread. I don’t know of a close second, and I pay dearly to have it shipped in... I have also tested with slight amounts of ascorbic acid, but my purist heart hurts when I do :-) You have convinced me to try Druid’s Lactic Acid. I’m back slidding again. :D

Danny

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Danny,

When I talked to Ramon Padilla, one of the first things he stated was that the flours used is really important. He didn't name brands but said he uses a high-gluten flour for the starter and an AP flour for the final dough. I have often used high-gluten flour when I expect long fermentations. It does not break down as fast.

David

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

David, Morbread (Grain Craft Milling, formerly Pendleton) has only 12% protein, but it handles warm ferments like nothing else I know of. It holds up much better than King Arthur Sir Lancelot (14%) and I really don’t care for the flavor or texture of super high protein flours.

I am unable to get this flour locally so I order mine from Azure Standard. The flour is actually economical IF you don’t have to pay for shipping.

Can you suggest another flour of this type? I always looking to improve.

Danny

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Currently, I am using the high-gluten bread flour from breadtopia dot com. I've used it for feeding starter, high-% rye breads and for bagels, mixed with AP. It seems fine. I don't have a judgement regarding flavor.

David

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I haven’t tried any of Eric’s flour, yet.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

My high gluten flour is hard spring white wheat grown in the Pacific Northwest, where most high gluten floru is grown , and is 12%  There are 30 different proteins in flour but only 2 of them make gluten when they get wet.  High gluten flour is one that has a high percent of these two proteins regardless f overall protein percent.  Desert Durum has one of the highest proteins overall at 15% but the two gluten forming ones are not found in huge abundance and why the durum is a difficult flour, like spelt

Happy baking Dan.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Dab, I remember reading that a while back. But the only information that I know to go with is the total percentage of protein. With that in mind, how can we know the quality of gluten in a specific flour?

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

and AP to actually be in the bag that says it is so.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/51798/acme-bread.

It was a mild SD taste with no tang like so many SFSD breads today.and nothing like my Columbo of Old or David's Parisian either I bet.

The problem with the Larraburu recipe is that it doesn't work and there have been many great Fresh Lofain bakers who have tried it and it fails every time!  The reason is simple as I have said many times  it isn't the real recipe and you can tell just by looking at it and knowing SD bread as well as we all do.  We have no real EX Larraburu bakers recipe which is the real problem.

And no Boudin doesnlt make 'Franken Bread' they use old dough and long ferments but nit crazy ones at high temoerature either.- SF is pretty cold most of the year so they a= re getting some natural acetic acidic tang as a result but all SFSD breads had both the base lactic and the and of acedic just not as much as Boudin.

Happy baking

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Here is what Mike Giraudo gives for starter in his formula:

250g starter (60% hydration)

What portion of a previously-made starter would you incorporate into this?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The answer is in the table labeled "Starter."

David

doughooker's picture
doughooker

If I'm interpreting your instructions correctly,

AP flour

102 g

 

WW flour

34 g

 

Water

80 g

 

Active firm starter

34 g

 

Total

250 g

 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Are you asking about the formula for my starter, the formula for the final dough or what?

If you are asking how Mike mixes his starter, I don't know for sure. I assumed he mixed the starter with the same formula as the final dough. That is the seed starter would consist of 25% by weight of the added flour in the starter feeding. I had to deconstruct the starter ingredients to determine the actual ingredient amounts.

David

doughooker's picture
doughooker

The starter only.

Your table for the starter makes 155 g of starter. Mike's recipe calls for 250 g of starter. I have multiplied all of your gram weights in the table by 250/155 or 1.61. Now we have 250 g of starter.

Here is the starter in B.P.

Flour (AP & WW combined)                            100%

Water                                                                 60%

Previous starter                                                 25%

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Mike's recipe calls for 250g of starter.

David

doughooker's picture
doughooker

Corrected now.

vyepello's picture
vyepello

Dan, Hi there. I have been following this project in the Perfect Sourdough Group on Facebook and have my first experiment in the fridge now. It had proofed overnight and seemed to be a happy dough this morning. Thank you for al of this hard work perfecting the recipe. I'm very much intrigued by a no fuss recipe of this nature although I do really enjoy the Tartine process and the end result.

So as of now, the recipe above is as accurate as it can get? I read the entire thread below and my head was spinning by the time I finished . 

Again, thank you.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Various folks have inserted various formulas into my topic, so I can understand your head spinning.

The recipe at the very top of the original post in this topic is from Mike Giraudo. It's the one he likes to use at home. It is an adaptation of the recipe used by Ramon Padilla at his home. Now Ramon is a retired Parisian and Boudin baker, and I am sure what he does at home derives from his professional experience, but I doubt it is identical to that used in the commercial bakeries.

The recipe I documented for my own bake includes a number of modifications of Mike's recipe. So, while my recipe is "accurate" for my bake, it is decidedly different from Mike's, Ramon's, Parisian's, Boudin's, Larraburu's or any other recipe.

Hope that doesn't accelerate your head's angular velocity!

David

vyepello's picture
vyepello

I meant to address you David. Did not mean to say Dan.

syros's picture
syros

Hi David, 

Again thank you for your wonderful explanations. I am thinking about making your adaptation, but wondered about using Kamut, preferably white Kamut instead of whole wheat. What is your opinion on this? 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I have only used 5-10% Kamut in mixed grain breads and that was whole grain. So, while I can't speak from experience, what you propose shouldn't be terrible. If you do it, please do share your experience.

David