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[Champlain SD] mystified by adding starter to premix

love's picture
love

[Champlain SD] mystified by adding starter to premix

Hey, maybe TFL can help me out. 

So... Trevor says this. 

"Next, you’ll knead the dough by rolling it into itself over and over. This expands the number of starter layers exponentially and spreads it throughout the entire batch of dough.

 

Just a warning though: because the dough sat overnight the gluten has already pretty much developed. If you roll the dough too tight you’ll begin tearing the gluten sheets.

 

Not good.

 

As soon as you feel the dough really starting to tighten it’s time to take a break and let it relax for a few minutes. I usually knead the dough for 5-10 minutes to start, then take a 10-15 minute break to let the dough relax, then come back for a few more minutes of kneading at the end."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

love's picture
love

Uh, having issues with this post so I'll put the rest of it here?

 

 

Okay. So usually for me, after the initial folds, I can roll the dough into itself about 5 or 10 times before the outer gluten layer rips and the starter falls out of the hole and I end up with a wet mess, which is really difficult to recover from.

 

In the video, Trevor has no problem rolling his dough around and tightening that outer layer, but for me, the outer layer of gluten almost instantly becomes thin and tight enough to tear with almost no kneading. Rather than the taut ball we see in Trevor's video, I get a structure that is closer to what I show in the image - like a water balloon that is almost ready to burst.

 

 

 

The result is that I find I have better results with almost no kneading at all, doing only so little that I don't tear the gluten structure. But this has the drawback of worse gluten development overall and poor inoculation of starter throughout the dough. 

 

If it helps, I am usually making the Champlain recipe tripled.

 

So what's the deal? Does anyone else have this problem? How to fix?

 

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

I'm lost.. can you post the video you mentioned?

love's picture
love

Sorry,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHiQ5X3NKEI

at 1:39 when the starter is added is what I'm talking about.

Bread1965's picture
Bread1965

Ok.. so assuming you're not accidentally not measuring the hydration/water correctly then it's most likley that the flour your'e using needs more water than the flour he's using in the video.. every flour is different, and getting to know yours is part of the challenge. Try increasing the water by 5% of weight of total flour in the recipe and see if it helps. Also, sometimes you just need to give the dough a break for five minutes and let it recover from the folding, and then finish up.. Let us know! I'd bet that's all it is..

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Have to taken a look at this post?  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55230/anyone-interested-champlain-sd-bake  It is a long one, but it deals specifically with the Champlain SD. Most of us have not been able to master the rolling knead that Trevor uses. Most also greatly reduce the premix (autolyse) time because the dough gets weak. It’s a long read but there is a load of information to be gleaned.

Dan

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Have to taken a look at this post?  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/55230/anyone-interested-champlain-sd-bake  It is a long one, but it deals specifically with the Champlain SD. Most of us have not been able to master the rolling knead that Trevor uses. Most also greatly reduce the premix (autolyse) time because the dough gets weak. It’s a long read but there is a load of information to be gleaned.

Dan

love's picture
love

Thanks for this. 

In addition to your post, I will further suggest this.

Today I baked some loaves completely omitting the overnight premix and also completely omitting the autolyse. 

Instead, I just added my starter directly to the dough water and mixed by hand to then transition into Trevor's rolling knead until the dough was well developed. But I'm sure any kneading technique would work. Did I notice any negative impact of omitting the autolyse? Yes, the gluten was a little softer and more pliable at the start of kneading. It took a little more kneading time to develop the dough. But since I didn't have a starter to incorporate, I didn't end up with a shaggy mess, and I ended up with a far better gluten structure at the end.

IMO this is a superior method for beginners. It seems to be a far more realistic technique for the amateur baker.

It was simpler, easier, less work, less scheduling, less stress, and above all, it resulted in my best loaves ever with beautiful oven spring, my highest ever rise, and crust just as good as any bread made with autolyse or overnight soak. 

Perhaps autolyse technique is more suitable for commercial bakeries and unnecessary for home baking?

So, thanks for the advice.

Will post pics shortly.

edit:here are pictures of the resulting bread, without any autolyse or premix.

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

The shorter autolyse also made a big difference for me. Especially with UK flour.... Kat

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Very nice looking bread!