Help on Chinese Steamed Bread (Mantou, Bao) Using Poolish and Tangzhong Roux at the Same Time?
Hey everyone, this topic is probably a little less conventional than the ones people are used to seeing out there. I'm working on a recipe for Chinese steamed bread for my mom, who takes them to work. These are called mantou when unfilled and when a filling is placed into the middle of it, it's called a bao (baozi is the diminutive form). There's a dearth of information on Chinese bread making techniques in the English speaking world, probably because the majority of the information on Chinese bread is written in Chinese.
So, my goal is to make steamed bread that is extremely soft and fluffy, yet full bodied and even a little bouncy, like the texture of Hokkaido milk bread. There should also be just a hint of sweetness, perhaps a shade lighter than the sweetness of Portuguese sweet bread and should also taste fully of bread, it shouldn't be bland. I'm currently working on this recipe using white flour, although I hope to make a whole wheat one in the future. It shouldn't be chewy at all and there should be no sour flavors as those qualities are not valued by the Chinese when eating bread.
She's also allergic to milk so I haven't been able to just make the Hokkaido milk bread recipe and just steam it. However, I have been using the tangzhong roux method and it makes for a wonderfully fluffy bread.
I was wondering whether it should be possible to create a bread by combining the tangzhong roux method in order to gain the fluffiness and tenderness from it along with using a poolish in the same loaf of bread in order to create a richer bread flavor? My bread has been coming out very bland and tasteless except for the hint of sweetness from the sugar.
In addition, I was also wondering about the merits of using all purpose flour versus bread flour in the recipe. I was reading that increased protein increases the loftiness and the ability of the bread to rise high but also increases its chewiness. However, when I have used cake flour in an attempt to make the bread, the flour did not rise very high and the bread came out dense.
People have mentioned on the forums that one should use all purpose flour in order to create a softer bread similar to the texture of classic sandwich bread. However, I read in another thread that you need intensive kneading of the all purpose flour in order to create that really soft texture and if you're doing it by hand and cannot make it to the windowpane stage (which I am guilty of), then it may be better to just use bread flour. So, which flour, and how much kneading for a soft, fluffy, voluminous bread without chewiness?
I will also be buying a scale in order to weigh things more quickly now.
My current recipe, which I make in bulk is:
15 cups of King Arthur's All Purpose flour (Peter Reinhart mentions this is equivalent to Gold Medal Bread Flour)
6.25 cups of water
1.66 cup of table sugar
10 teaspoons of instant yeast
I take six tablespoons of the flour out and combine it with one cup of the water out of the total 6.25 cups. In a pot, I make the tangzhong roux, and then pour it into the flour, making sure not to let it touch the yeast.
I then combine the roux along with the rest of the remaining ingredients together and mix. I do not autolyse. Next, the dough is kneaded for about 10 minutes, left to rise, folded down, and then I let it do a second rise before using it. I use it to make the buns and then I put it into the steamer, let them rise a third time in order to get puffy and voluminous, and then steam for 15 minutes.
I was wondering if someone could offer some advice on making a steamed bread with the flavor and texture profile I have above. I'd really appreciate any help, especially because I make them as food for my mom since she works long hours. I'll post a successful working recipe along with pictures if and when I'm able to achieve this objective!
I am also getting ready to try my hand at some steamed buns. I know nothing about it but this is what I'm going to use to guide me. My prep area is currently a mess as I'm assembling a table and have sections all over the floor otherwise I was going to start this week.
http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/bakpao-the-steamed-buns-project/
Tom
Forgot to mention this lady. txfarmer. She is from China and a prolific contributor to The Fresh Loaf. You might peruse her entries and see if she has some info of some use to you.
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/blog/txfarmer
Tom
Hello! I wonder if any of Dan Lepard's tricks for making softer loaves would work.
From "failsafe white bread":"And adding a tablespoon of vinegar to the dough mix will help the crumb stay soft after baking, as will a tablespoon of soya flour. Half a small vitamin C tablet, or the juice of an orange, will help loaves rise better, especially if they contain a portion of wholemeal flour. And if your loaf smells of yeast, reduce the amount you use by a quarter next time. Replacing half the water in a recipe with yoghurt will give more flavour to white bread without it tasting milky."
I know you said you can't use dairy milk, but maybe you could try alternatives e.g. soy yoghurt? Soy products especially have quite similar characteristics to dairy (e.g. protein content, sugar content if you buy one that's lightly sweetened). When I've baked with them I haven't noticed any soy flavour come through to the bread.
This recipe is heavy on the dairy but I think you could adapt at least some of the ideas. It uses a sponge, too: "delicate milk loaf".
Is there a reason you're not using any fats? Soft breads usually have some, from what I've seen. Elsewhere Lepard says that using softened rather than melted butter, and kneading it in after mixing all the other ingredients, also makes the result extra soft.
I've had success using a vegan dough from Woks of Life, using melted coconut oil, in steamed as well as baked buns. As long as you don't buy the unprocessed style coconut oil (i.e. you want refined), it won't add a coconut taste, and acts a lot like butter. (Also has the relatively high saturated fats content of butter, so no good if you have health concerns!!)
I realised I didn't really answer your question here. I suspect it's worth using bread flour to get a good rise, so these other tricks might be useful to compensate for any chewiness. Switching to cake flour was maybe a bit extreme - all purpose flour is something of a middle ground between the two, isn't it?
In terms of using a poolish, my guess would be that if you're still using dried yeast for the leavening (not a sourdough) and only leave it overnight (not longer) then you won't get a particularly strong 'sour' flavour, just a little more depth.
I am also wondering whether it would be better to use a small portion of some other flour, rather than wholemeal, if you're wanting to improve the flavour of the dough. Have you tried spelt? I think it would go well in lightly sweet buns. I'd start with about replacing 10-25% of the total flour and work up from there.
I'm curious, have you ever had a steamed bun with a lot of flavour to it? To the bun, not the filling. I love them, sweet, savoury, or plain, but I've never had one with much flavour except from the filling or additives. A good part of that, I bet, is that without baking you don't get the caramelization of the sugars on the crust, which is where so much of the smell and flavour of bread comes from.
My thoughts (and this is just based on hunches, not experience), would be to stick with AP flour, tangzhong, and, as chapstick suggests, maybe experiment with adding a bit of fat. You could tinker with your sweetened too, try honey or malt syrup, and, yeah, a bit of whole grain flour (buckwheat? rice? white wheat?) could add a bit of depth that otherwise is lacking.
Good luck!
I hope I don't offend, but is she allergic to all milk? I too had severe issues with dairy, but I have since overcome this problem. I encourage you to look into A2 type lactose. I personally can only consume raw, grass-fed whole milk from A2 cows without any reaction. There is also goat or sheep's milk to consider. I've found that milk and egg allergies are often just a reaction to a poor quality milk or egg. I know it's not always the case, but just trying to help. I really enjoy good dairy and the types I recommend are better for everyone, not just those having issues. Thank you, enjoy baking :)