Achieving true San Fran Sourdough...whatever that means

America does not have the equivalent of appellation d'origins contrôlée for many products, but San Fran Sourdough ought to be one of them.

So yes, you made San Fran sourdough, but it is not San Fran sourdough because it was not made in San Fran. =)

Cognac is brandy, but not all brandy is Cognac...

I grew up in San Fran, so I have eaten it all my life. I am not particularly fond of it, unless it is used as a base for a meal.  Cioppino in a bread bowl is something sublime! Or for a local salami sub, awesome.

But for plain eating bread, it is a bit strong flavored. Very sour, far more than my palate prefers. I will dip my bread in Balsamic if I want that much vinegar taste.

I would probably select any of our Fresh Loaf made "sourdough"s over a traditional San Fran Sourdough.

The regional difference in natural culture breads is not only related to bakers' techniques, but also to the indigenous strains of yeast and lactobacillus bacteria present in the area.  

Yeasts do not produce appreciable amounts of either lactic or acetic acids.  Their main metabolites are ethanol and CO2, so the "sour" flavor of a given culture comes from the lactobacillus species.  In tests of San Franciso sourdoughs, one species of lactobacillus is so prevalent it was given the name Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis to differentiate it from other species that might be present.  It's what gives San Francisco sourdoughs their very characteristic taste and sourness.

Other cultures from around the world have much different properties.  Various strains of yeast are better or worse at leavening dough, and each lactobacillus subspecies has a different flavor profile.  The wild culture that I captured in my own kitchen has a nice sourness to it, but the yeast half is quite poor at leavening bread.  However, a culture I read about from the area around the Black Sea is very vigorous in terms of leavening.

There have been many attempts to mix-and-match yeasts and lactobacilli from different cultures, but not always with great success.  It seems that as they evolve around each other they take on characteristics that produce a wonderful symbiosis with their specific partners that is not necessarily transferable to other pairings.

Luckily, when yeast are exposed to harsh environments, they form a protective capsule around themselves that is very durable and they can wait inside until conditions are right for growing again.  The dehydrated backup you made of your culture is a perfect example of this.  By making a dry storage version of a culture it can be easily sent all over the world, and you can get dry samples of San Francisco sourdough sent through the mail right to your house.  They sell them in gift shops all around the Bay Area, and there are dozens of sources online.  Just rehydrate and start baking.  One caution though:  It's my understanding that over time a foreign sourdough culture can revert to the local wild-type due to cross-contamination from the indigenous population of organisms.  So your culture may stop tasting San Francisco-ish over time.

You have your hydrations backwards, but that doesn't matter since they are both about the same anyway. I don't think that what you are making sounds quite right as a SFSD. While it is true that technically outside of SF this isn't really SFSD, it can be called San Fransisco Style Sourdough. The lactobacillus sanfranciscensis has been found all around the world, but without special laboratory work you won't know if it is present. Technically without this it won't be the same. Plus the flour being used will make a difference. I recently moved from SF area and am running low on the local flour. I don't really notice a big difference when I use KAF for these though (I only really can tell when making a poolish because of the extra nuttiness).

Really SFSD is just french bread made with a starter and using white flour. The lower amount of starter lends a more sour taste (as does a retarding of the dough if desired). The sugar is optional, but I never use it and don't know any of the good SF sourdough companies that do either so I would leave it out. Some might add malted barley flour. I have never heard of basting it with anything (except maybe to brush some water on it for steaming purposes). The hydration sounds low as well. I tend to use either 65 or 68% for more traditional style loaves like you are looking for but often use higher hydration otherwise. The salt is 1.7% and I might bring that up to 2% but don't know if that would really matter.

Most of the breads are retarded to increase the flavor. Not all are extremely sour, but some do push the limits. The texture is a bit chewy and the crust is not usually boldly baked.

I don't understand the part about putting the dough directly in the pan. Did it not go through a proofing stage first? What pan are you using? If it is a loaf pan then that won't give you what you want.

For your wicker baskets you can use parchment or a floured tea towel. FWIW, normally the banneton is dry when adding the dough. It is possible that you are getting it too wet and creating and environment for mold. You can spray it with water and flour it to condition it when you first get it, but don't put the dough in until it is dry. Don't store wet baskets either. Take a look at this page (and small video).

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/video-how-to-break-in-a-new-banneton/

Thanks to Maverick for making an additional point.  I actually meant to mention it in my first post but inadvertently omitted it:  L. sanfranciscensis is not endemic to the San Francisco area.  Also, it is not the only lactobacillus species found in samples of bread from bakers in the Bay Area.  However, in the study i came across, something like 70% percent of the samples studied had L. sanfranciscensis as the majority bacteria present.  

Another point that Maverick made that I completely missed was the flour.  I had just assumed that the flour shipped to California was the same stuff they spread all over the U.S..  Never even occurred to me that regional differences in flour availability would be a factor.  That's why I love this site - I learn something new every time I log in.

With regard to your wicker baskets.  You said you got them online.  Hopefully it was from a reputable source of quality kitchen wares.  There's something in the news almost weekly anymore about the junk coming out of China (my apologies to any Chinese members on this site).  Everything from imported dog food, to childrens' toys, to furniture varnishes, etc. are being discovered to be toxic because production standards in China are more lax than in the US.  Sadly, production costs are cheaper too, so we're importing stuff from China that used to be made here just to save a buck or two.  Unfortunately a lot of the banneton/brotform baskets I've found online are made in China.

Stepping off my soap box now...

If anybody has found a good source of American or European made proofing baskets please post a name or website!

Calling it San Francisco sourdough is fine; we know what you mean. A couple of the prominent sourdough bakeries in the area were actually in nearby Oakland.

There are a couple of things wrong with your recipes. Authentic S.F. SD contains no sugar. It contains 2% salt. There is no baste of any kind.

59% is the hydration you want to aim for but I'm not sure you're calculating it correctly.

I, too, grew up on real S.F. SD from San Francisco. I can't taste your bread so I can't tell how close you are to the real thing. The real thing should not taste vinegary, as the crap they sell to tourists on Fisherman's wharf does.

How do your crusts come out? Are they chestnut brown and crispy or pale and sickly?

There is no baste, but dry corn starch excels as a non-stick powder for your baking surface.

I'm leery of packaged sourdough starters. For all we know they could be a little flour and baker's yeast in an envelope, palmed off on the public as "sourdough starter".

Here is your "San Fran" recipe with no sugar and 2% salt. The hydration works out to 58.3%, a wee bit low. Note that the starter is calculated independently of the dough, but the starter hydration is incorporated into the final hydration figure.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P7RBFZle75Enp2dmxX3vPFXCiq0cphXtMnkGUiwdkoY/edit#gid=0

Here are descriptions of two S.F. sourdough processes:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/176197#comment-176197

Finally, if you want it authentic, be sure to use only white flour. Bread flour is preferred but all-purpose will do. Don't go messing around with rye or whole-wheat flour or other grains if you want it authentic.

Added note: I believe the proofing temperature of 105 F given in the Larraburu process is too hot. I proof at 86 F as given in the other recipe.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/177563#comment-177563

who have tried to recreate the SFSD they loved.  Most notably David Snyder here 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/26661/larraburu-two-variations-classic-san-francisco-sourdough

Where was recreating his take on Larraburu's published recipe of low hydration and stiff starter and his own take of his favorite SF bakery, Pariasian here

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/26956/my-san-francisco-sourdough-quest  I think he is up to SFSD version 4 now with added whole wheat,

The truth about SFSDis that it has always been a moving target that actually changed many times over the years.  SFSD has never been Larraburu, or Parisian or Colombo , my favorite, or Toscno or Boudin the only pre 1900 SF bakery still in existence now the oldest business of any kind in SF sin 1849.

Like now, where the SFSD bakeries are all different, making different bread different ways the same was true throughout history.

http://www.sanfrancisco.travel/article/best-bakeries-san-francisco-neighborhood

The bread being made in SF in the old days in the 1850's when there were over 60 bakeries in SF, was much different than the bread being made in the 1930's which was different than the bread made in the 1970's and different than the bread being made today/  The flour was different in the 1850's than the 1930's even though the methods were similar than they were in earlier times but still different from bakery to bakery.

By the 1970's the hearth ovens of the bakeries founded before 1900, had pretty much been replaced by commercial ones so that the few bakeries left after consolidation and financial difficulties, could crank out much more bread.  Before Colombo closed in 2005 it was making 220,000 loaves of bread a week - you aren't doing that by hand in a wood or coal fired oven.

The hydration was still low because they were proofing free form and the starter was stiff because it was basically old dough that was stiff.  Generally speaking the bread was less open and more sour due mainly to the hydration and the crust was thinner and lighter even though Boudin baked a bolder crust.

The 1970's were hard on the original SF bakeries that were started before 1900.  Larraburu went bankrupt when they were sued for $2 million in 1978 when one of their delivery trucks ran over a child's and they didnlt have enough insurance to covert the court' liability award..  Toscana, Colombo and Parisian where bought up by Boudin when they all got into financial trouble at various times and placed into a separate company that was eventually bought by Interstate bakeries of KCMO ( of Wonder Bread, Twinkies and Ho Ho Fame) and they all went out of business when Interstate went bankrupt the first of 3 times in the 2000's!.    Which left Boudin as the last old bakery standing and it had gone bankrupt in 1949 itself but managed to reorganize and stay afloat. 

Throughout SF history, the bakeries have really been about neighborhoods and the different bread that was made in each.  In the old days, the immigrants lived in distinct neighborhoods.  Bakery founders were mainly French, Basque and Italians who brought their SD techniques with them from 1849  to 1900.  So depending on where you lived played a big part in what your fondest memories of what SFSD meant to you.  If you were a visitor it was where you brought the bread you came home with.  The airport, wharf, Oakland etc. Now a couple of things have changed.

People are more mobile and can and do get around more and there has been a big resurgence of 'Artisan' bread in SF.  But it isn't the traditional artisan bread made up to 1930 either if you discount Boudin and Josey baker's The Mill with some other exceptions.  The flour is different, the holes are bigger, the bread less sour (because the starter isn't a stiff old dough and much higher in hydration)., it is baked at a higher temperature and wood or coal fired ovens are still pretty few and far between.

Plus our memories aren't as good as we think either so our ideas of our favorite SFSD bread of the 70's when the old time bakeries were still around may be a bit off.  The fun is in trying to re-create what you think it was like.  Luckily we don't have to try to recreate the new SFSD bred with so many books, posts and videos of it being produced and all you need is a DO and some SD :-)  It is surely some of the greatest SFSD bread of all time even if different but the bread was always different depending on where you were in SF.

And don't forget that great Italian style SFSD bread like this one - one of my all time favorites since Colombo was my favorite:-)

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32512/pugliese-capriccioso-take-3

and Josh's Super Sour old time SFSD heremade by Syd - my personal favorite for the old time re-creations

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/28276/joshs-super-sour-sfsd

Happy baking the SFSD way.

If you're going to build a house you need to be able to read and follow a blueprint. If you're going to cook or bake anything successfully you need to be able to follow a recipe. Sourdough is one of the simplest recipes having just four ingredients if you count the starter. Baker's math is unambiguous and makes it easy to scale quantities up or down. I don't understand your ad-hoc additions of flour and water and your calculations after the fact and guessing or miscalculating the final hydration. You have the recipe in both gram measurements and baker's percentages. Just measure the ingredients called for in the recipe, just measure and mix, no guesswork and no miscalculations.

You mention a starter at 100% hydration which would be a very thick batter, not a sponge, then you mention a sponge. Which is it?

You haven't made any mention of proofing times.

We have established that you want a hydration of 59%, then you switch to 63% which you read somewhere. I don't know where you're getting these recipes -- I can't fathom a sourdough recipe that calls itself "San Francisco" that adds sugar.

Here is San Francisco sourdough from the documented process rather than being a modification of your earlier recipe. Note that it uses a stiff sponge. Do you already have a properly-ripened liquid starter or sponge that you're using?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jf4z67bgMbJcNWUnJJ94zHkscFVZXYiPUWgMenz8tFE/edit#gid=1165365046

Did you bulk ferment or go straight from kneading to the basket? If you bulk ferment, it will be easier to handle for shaping. Plus it will taste better. Going from kneading to final proof will not be nearly as good.

At least you have the kneading and fermentation/proofing down.

I'm perfectly fine with volume measurements for dry ingredients. I find weight measurements are the way to go for wet ingredients.

It would probably serve you well to learn baker's math. You have already been shown an excellent calculator, at least for sourdough.

Without tasting your product I can't judge how close it comes to the real thing, and I do have a very good memory of what it tasted like. The closest I can describe it is that it will be tangy, kind of like unflavored yogurt or sour cream.

If there's a good baking book, I don't know what it is. Jeffrey Hamelman knows his stuff and has a series of videos on YouTube. I have learned mostly by trial and error.

Experts agree they really don't have clue as to what San Francisco Sourdough French Bread (the official name for it) tasted like in 1849. Why? Seems no one can name the actual flour type used to make it. There's a lot of educated guessing but no solid evidence. Then there's details like dough preparation and biological composition of the original starter and as everyone comes to understand, everything counts in sourdough. 

The University of California Davis should come to the culinary world's rescue and find an enterprising soul to step up to the challenge of documenting what can only be the greatest Masters if not PhD ever completed at that institution...,  

Wild-Yeast

The USDA studied five sourdough bakeries in the late 1960's. One wonders if they kept records of the type of flour used in more detail than "clear flour".

Information dating back to the gold rush may be lost to the ages.

I have been playing with sourdough for 10+ years and discarding part of the starter down the drain weekly and haven't had a plugged drain yet and also felt that the septic systems health may have benefitted from the weekly inoculation. 

Gerhard