April 13, 2015 - 1:52am
At what volume do you bake your sourdough?
Greetings
To get the optimum oven rise, when do you consider your dough ready for baking? do you wait until the dough doubles? tripples? or get only 50% more volume?
Some people say double, others, like Verasano, says 50%
"Most recipes say that the dough should double in size. This is WAY too much. In total the dough should expand by about 50% in volume. It would seem like the more yeast bubbles in the dough, the lighter the pizza will be. This is the intuitive guess. But it's not true. The yeast starts the bubbles, but it's really steam that blows the bubbles up. If the yeast creates bubbles that are too big, they become weak and simply pop when the steam comes resulting in a flat dense, less springy crust. Think of blowing a bubble with bubble gum. How tight is a 2 inch bubble? It depends: As you start with a small bubble and blow it up to 2 inches it's strong and tight. But at 4 inches it's reached it's peak.. Now if it shrinks back to 2 inches, it'll be very weak. So a 2 inch bubble is strong on the way up and weak on the way down. You want bubbles on the way up. If the dough is risen high, the bubbles are big and the dough will have a weaker structure and will collapse when heat creates steam. The lightest crust will come from a wet dough (wet = a lot of steam), with a modest amount of rise (bubbles formed, but small and strong). Some people start with a warm rise for 6 hours or so, and then move the dough to the fridge. I'm not a huge fan of this method. Once the bubbles are formed, I don't want the dough to get cold and have the bubbles shrink. This weakens their structure. What you want is a steady slow rise, with no reversals. Always expanding, just very, very slowly."
Is he right about the 50% expansion ? What is your own experience?
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...all about over-proofing (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/42295/over-proofing-what-it-looks-and-why#comment-323184). Here's the link:
http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/the-myth-of-double-in-size/
It was written by the artisan bakers at The Weekend Bakery and is their debunking of the myth of doubling in size.
Verasano is spot on in the points he makes (though I might debate his rejection of cold retardation), it's all about getting your dough into the perfect condition for it to respond in the manner you'd like to the oven's heat.
The Weekend Bakers have also posted (and translated) a wonderful finger-poke test checklist devised by Notox at www.sauerteig.de:
So I guess the lesson I take from all this is don't be a slave to proofing times and volumes. We have to learn how to judge for ourselves when a bread is ready to go in the oven. Doubling seems to work fine for ultra-hydrated doughs like ciabatta and foccacia (for me, anyway) but for everything else I go by the finger-poke test. It works really well. If you are also consistent and careful with your desired dough temperature you soon find you can replicate a good loaf again and again.
Thank you so much for those valuable tips and links. I will make sure to follow that finger method and keep practicing it.
if you ask me, Doubling itself isn't a myth, Some breads you do want to double and some you want to tripe but what is hard and nearly mythical is knowing when this actually happens. What a great post and link to the weekend bakery, It me the longest time to realize that if the basket is filled 4 " high a doubling would be when it was filled 5" - hardly any difference.
I also think the kind of bread it is, whole grains or white, or white makes a difference too. I like to proof whole grains to 85%-90% and white breads to 90-95% - just a bit more. I think of either actually doubles the spring and bloom isn't as good but would be interested to see what others think. Panettonne is a different altogether too.
Here is my latest over proofed loaf last Friday - a cheese and jalapeno Frisbee.:-) I had an excuse since it over proofed in the fridge while i was sleeping....
Waiting for pannetone dough to TRIPLE in volume overnight on the first rise is an excruciating time. So much can go wrong. Not the least of which was the dough overflowing my big bowls last December because it got too warm. It was like an attack of The Monsters from the Dough Lagoon.
What about high hydration dough? I cannot test a 90% hydration with finger poking. I have my fermenting bowl marked so I can precisely tell how much volume it expands to over time. But should I wait until it reaches 40%, 50%, 80%, 90%, double or triple during RTBF?
There is also the question of final proofing. Provided that we do the whole process in the same room temperature, If it takes your dough x hours to double during bulk fermentation, should we final proof for 1/4 x time, 1/2 x time or the same time? for example, it your dough doubles, say, in 4 hours during BF, do you final proof for 1h, 2h or 4h?
Bulk fermentation allows you to take it beyond doubling depending on what your final goal is.
Final proofing is a lot more specific but never more than doubling.
Too little and you'll get too much oven spring or too much and you'll get a lousy oven spring. You cannot give an exact timing for final proofing. You'll have to let the dough dictate to you! So it's not about the time rather by how it looks and feels.
This is what confuses me. Some bakers say its best to limit bulk fermentation to 40% expansion, some say 80%, and you here say its ok to let it rise more than double.
Are you sure its ok to let it BF to triple its volume? wouldn't that exhaust the gluten and consume most of the sugars in the flour? isn't that over-fermenting?
Rising is just gas given off by the yeasts when eating the sugars. There's plenty left even if it's more than doubled. Time will exhaust the sugars if left too long and the yeasts eat it all up eventually attacking the gluten. Our aim in bulk fermentation is not to take it to optimum rising but to inoculate the dough with yeast and for flavour. But if left for a long time it will go beyond optimum rising for good oven spring. This is why one must knock it back down and do a final proofing this time taking it to the correct level of rising for good oven spring. As long as the bulk fermentation + final proofing stays within the limits of available food for the yeasts then all is fine.
So over fermenting is leaving it too long! Bulk fermentation is to develop flavour and to inoculate the dough and final proofing is to shape the dough and leaving it so that its risen to the correct height - be it 80% - 95% with many different opinions. All this has to be done before the yeasts eat up all the food which will make it over fermented.
Now I have seen somewhere that for different doughs, to bring out the best in flavour etc, some recommend double or triple for bulk fermentation. But for final proofing it is a lot stricter.
Also if you do stretch and folds in the bulk fermentation stage how are you going to be exact when measuring height it has risen. Obviously they'll be some de-gassing. In this case you can go by time.
One can (and many recipes do this) make the dough, shape and leave to rise then bake.
This is straight into the final proofing. Only one rise. So one must get it into the oven at the optimum rising level. Whatever that is be it 80%-95% which is another discussion.
However, this doesn't mean the yeasts have exhausted all the supply of food at this stage. They'll be plenty left in most cases of sourdough depending on how much starter you have used.
But this won't take very long and therefore will be a short fermentation time. We maximise the flavour by doing a longer fermentation time. It might have another "x" amount of hours before the food is used up. But if we leave it for this "x" amount of hours it'll rise more then the optimum height for baking. So what you can do is the following...
Make the dough, leave it to bulk ferment for flavour (but at this stage it might go beyond the correct height for baking), then you knock the dough back down and shape it. Then you'll take it to the optimum height.
This allows you to ferment the dough for longer and not go over.
Ok, I'll take your advice. I've just finished mixing today's dough. I'll let it bulk ferment until double this time. instead of 40% rise, before I transfer to the pan for final proofing. I'll not change any other factor, so I'll proof for 1 hour, the same as I did before with this 90% hydration dough, to see what longer bulk fermentation does for the final product.
How long do you final proof? my current room temperature is 81F
At what volume do you bake your sourdough?
Answer: I aim for just under doubled taking into account that a banneton can be deceptive.
If i'm following a recipe and then it gives a time then I use that time as a guide.
But your question is not about bulk fermentation. It's about final proofing and final proofing is never more than doubled.
Now we can take an educated guess if you tell us the recipe. But again, it's more by feel.
Here is my recipe:
But only as a guideline as you're the judge.
I would've used strong bread flour but if you like AP then fine.
This is very high hydration for a white flour bread. I would normally go for 65% hydration.
That's just by-and-by...
Ok so here's an idea... wait till it's doubled for the bulk fermentation, knock back and shape, then final proof till 90%. For me it would probably take around 2-2.5 hours. I live in the UK so normal room temperature is about 21C (perhaps a bit warmer). I think you mentioned that it is very warm where you are so start checking at around 1-1.5 hours keeping an eye on it. It's also high hydration so might go quicker too. If not ready then check again every 10-15min trying to catch it at 85-90%. sprinkle a bit of flour on top and give it a poke and if it comes up slowly then ready.
Bulk ferment, knock back, shape into banneton, leave out for 10-15min then retard in the fridge overnight.
Next morning bake straight from the fridge.
I've just poured my dough into a 12"x12" square pan, after BF for 6 hours, where it reached a bit more than double, 2.14X to be exact.
While pouring, the dough looked very active, stretchy and foamy, just like a ripe starter (its a sandwich bread by the way). I can't wait to see the result in the oven. I'll final proof for 1 hour from now, then bake and see..
Best if luck and show us some pics when its done.
with pleasure. Here is a pic of the dough just before baking in the oven.
I'll quote the great book by Jacquy Pfeiffer: "It's ready when it's ready". Some doughs will double, some will triple, and some will barely rise at all.
So how then do you determine which dough to double or triple? for example, is hydration a factor here?
I think the answer is as follows...
Remember when we said that you have a certain amount of time to make the dough and bake the bread before the yeasts run out of food. And within that time you can incorporate a bulk fermentation, knock back, shape and final proof all before it over ferments. Well that is timing as supposed to doubling or tripling. So what it does in that time is more important than how much it rises in that time apart from final proofing which should be at a certain percentage.
With your 20% starter you can incorporate a bulk fermentation of up to 6 hours (if not more) and still be safe. So while seeing how much it has risen is a good indicator it shouldn't be the only indicator.
The yeast does not really run out of food. "Food", as in maltose, is produced in the dough continuously by the enzymatic action. What may happen is yeast may consume maltose faster than it is produced, a result of excessive yeast loads (hence added sugar). Another possibility is local maltose consumption - which is what happens when the yeast is poorly distributed and/or the dough is too dry preventing diffusion. But all in all yeast consumes something on the order of 1% of total mass during fermentation. We bake the bread when the gluten and flavor are developed. When it's ready.
One has a maximum fermentation time. Too long and the gluten gets destroyed. The process I described still stands. Bulk ferment and final proof before this happens at optimum time for flavour and gluten development. Perhaps running out of food is the wrong terminology but most of us aren't scientists.
Thanks for that though Suave. You're teaching me what's going on under the hood.
Didn't mean to sound standoff-ish. I'm learning the science slowly. I know how to make a sourdough and some of what's going on under the microscope.
There is no substitute for experience. Once you bake long enough, you start to develop general feeling when the dough is ready. I don't even look at volume most of the time anymore. With preferment I go by general appearance. With simple yeasted doughs I can estimate time based on temperature and yeast and preferment amounts. With sourdoughs I pay close attention to starter rise times.
Re: hydration and rise. Oh, yes, hydration matters a lot. Dough mixed at 55% will likely* rise higher than the dough mixed at 85%. The former will also take longer time to ferment.
* I say likely because I haven't actually tried these exact two hydrations. I compared some others though.
Here is a pic of the bread after baking. No oven rise, zero, unfortunately. But the smell is awesome!
When you wrote about pouring it into the tin I didn't there would be.
I've sent you a private message. I think you need to do a few things...
1. Use strong bread flour
2. Drop the hydration to 65%
3. Develop the gluten by kneading for 15min when forming the dough.
4. Bulk ferment 3 - 6 hours. Less for more mellow flavour and more the more tangy flavour.
5. Shape into a smaller loaf tin. This one has no support.
6. Final proof till almost doubled.
I think I'm going to stick with 90% for a while. I'm finding it much easier to work with. All I do is mix, that's all. I don't even touch the dough from start to finish. One utensil to clean. Zero use of bench, no messing. All clean. I love being minimalist. I've been baking with 55%, 57%, 58%, 59%, 60% for years. To me, 90% is a whole new world, an exciting adventure. I like it so much. You should try it yourself. I've even started baking pizzas with 90% dough (par-baking first).
I think I'll do that next time. I'll also try S&F during the first hour after mixing, then pour directly in the pan for proofing until doubled, skipping bulk fermentation.
I've sliced the above bread after it was cooled. The crumb is not bad. Crunchy crust and moist and soft crumb, and the taste is nice and mild, the way we like our sandwich slices. Here is a pic.
You're right. I need to buy new loaf pans. For now, I'm stuck with that 12" square pan.
You can do a no knead bread at a lower hydration I think. You'll get some more structure and greater rise. If you really want to stick to 90% then try adding in some wholegrain flour and use strong bread flour too. The smaller tins will provide more support and you'll get better rise. But its what you like that counts. Bon Appetite.
Are you able to bake SD loaves consistently that have much lower hydration than the 90% in your recipe? For example, 65% like AbeNW suggests up to 71% in a 123 SD? If not, it seems to me that you're trying to sprint before you're able to walk steadily.
Thanks for your concern. I can walk fine. I've been baking for 35 years. I'm going to stick with 90% hydration for a while, as I find it much simpler ad easier to work with. I come here to gain experience and try new adventures. I hope that's fine with you.
Sorry if my attempt to help felt inappropriate or touched a nerve.