Kneading Rye
Hello everyone. My bread baking endeavors are not stopping at any rate. Actually go to sleep thinking of too much bread. Can this be an illness, then I get on here and feel a bit better.
What is the best way to knead Rye dough? I seem to use the slap around on the counter eagle claw method which works for ciabatta. I use a little fermented white AP dough to go in with it. Can you tell me if this recipe is OK . Made it once with some old lean white dough about (150g - 200g) and the rye bread turned out great. Tried making it again and unfortunately the crust was very hard which wasn't the case the first time. I did not use steam the second time round. I really liked the flavor and would love to replicate
Here is the recipe
500g Dark Rye
12 salt
150g rye starter
Pre fermented AP lean dough about 150g
400ml water
I intend to make it again without using instant yeast in the fermented white dough instead some of my sourdough starter.
Can anybody let me know if this sounds OK, second time round I actually used less starter about 50g and 400g rye instead adjusting the salt and water accordingly . That hard crust was really disappointing. Could it have been because of no steam?
Have noticed that Rye is sacred for some on this site, the information and bread is absolutely stunning. Im sure you know who you are.
Thanks
Ghazi
this thread to your list on rye handling... some of us are experimenting to see if so much working of rye dough actually works. Testing the norms are always fun and eye opening. Many of my loaves are based on as little kneading as possible, this is just the opposite and some theories abound. We will soon be hearing about them...
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/38537/almost-purely-rye-sourdough
... or better not. I'm still not sure if the OP wanted to make fun of us, tellung us of kneading a rye dough for 30 minutes, or if he acutally does that.
ghazi: You don't need to knead rye doughs. Just mix them to incorporate all ingredients. Sometimes, I mix them a 2nd time after letting the dough hydrate for 20 minutes. It usually has a better structure then.
In this time there is no need to knead or even touch the dough, as there is no gluten to be developed. I think this hydrating the pentosans (the mucilages that build the structure) is often mistaken for developing gluten by kneading.
Adrian
Adrian
No fun there! :-) I have just wrote a recipe for my favourite rye bread and the process how I am doing it. In this way it is my never-fail-loaf. In one commentary under my recipe I have mention this: "I much more prefer about 10-15 minutes of "slap and fold" and continue about 10 minutes of simple folding the dough in the bowl until I feel the right consistency." I think it is the best description of how I am doing it always with success.
I totally agree with dabrownman in the case of working the rye dough. Small amount of gluten in rye flour actually just does not mean that we should not knead it.
so I'm guessing the pre-fermented AP is about 65% hydration
and the starter is at 100% hydration
making about 83% hydration... (sounds good)
I tend to cover the loaf tin with a double layer foil tent with plenty of room for expansion yet trapping in the steam and remove the tent half way thru the bake. Might want to play with that. How hot is the oven?
I slap and fold all breads - even high percent whole rye ones. I figure 4 minutes just gets everything mixed and 2 minutes more about 15 minutes later fulfills the never less than 6 minute rule for cardio! After that, for rye bread, you only do them because there isn't anything else better to do. Dumping the mess in a pan is something better to do for me so I do that instead of more slap and folds.
There is gluten in rye bread for sure and I don't see any reason not to give it a go at developing it - but 20-30 minutes is a little much for most breads, except possibly 100% whole spelt at 100% hydration which takes 40 minutes of slap and folds the Michael Wilson Way :-)
In a book I have it says to knead rye for 5 minutes, though it states that it does not change at all (I feel there is a change with it getting little more stretchy, which can only be a good thing?) and im very careful not to over do it, otherwise its horrible as you know. Nothing worse than gone soft rye
I'm going to try the no kneading just resting and developing, less work for me. Though I am a true believer in that if its too easy something is wrong. When I sweat slapping/kneading the dough for a bit I feel I've done good justice and will be rewarded, that's just me
Mini Oven your breads look amazing (never seen a crumb like that on rye). You have got to be on the right track. We humans always want to test and I guess that's just us. Thank you for the link
With baking the Rye bread I put in a brotform, so they are baked open, First time round it got a lovely soft crust after cooling. I remember adding lots of flour when kneading just got very sticky (mistake from making too many wheat breads and forgot rye is not like that) could this be why, though it contradicts what I read about handling rye with water (and of course all breads to not add flour prizing away the taste you've created) . I guess i'll attempt again and hope for the best.
I get the oven to 250 degrees c, then once I slide the loves in after about 2 minutes I turn down to 200. Have got a thing where all bread for me has to go in a piping hot oven to start with of course adjusting the temp depending on how much fat is in there. So if I put a layer of foil as soon as I slide them in, this should help.
Dabrownman. Yes interesting you say 100% whole spelt needs more kneading, this is exactly what I do, it becomes so stretchy and fun to work with and of course the smell. As it stands, never gone beyond 70% hydration.
Thank you all for your responses been very informative. Bck to the kitchen for more work.
Hello ghazi,
just to clarify that wheat is unique amongst all the grass species in possessing gluten-forming proteins which will form into long chains to produce a network once hydrated. Yes, rye contains gluten, but it does not function in the same way. Structure in the rye paste comes from the pentosans which are fibrous and mesh the starch molecules together.
The 2 concepts are very different. I am not convinced by the argument not to mix rye paste too aggressively to avoid damaging the gluten structure...there isn't one to damage! On the other hand, I don't really see how working the paste extensively will cause any harm either; but it will not achieve what you are hoping for, either way.
That is why sourdough is usually intrinsic to rye paste. The acid protects the delicate pentosans towards the end of final proof and in the early stages of baking. That is when the rye paste becomes weak. Evidence that there is no gluten structure in rye: if you overprove rye paste, you've had it - which is not necessarily the case with a wheat-based dough
Best wishes
Andy
Hi Andy
Thank you for your feedback. Its interesting to know that Rye works in that way, I never knew it was so strong a grain until recent. (in a non demanding way)
In regards to wheat yes I found after working with Rye a bit its totally different and should be treated in opposite way. So sour and rye work hand in hand to help each other out, I never knew that. Great info
Your expert advice is always a pleasure and look forward to soaking more in
Ghazi
*smile* Well I am not sure about this rye dough, but here most are as firm as baby's butt ( yes that what is says in my oldest cookbook) and you knead to knead them for about 20 minutes. I do enjoy those softer rye loafs to, hellish to work with but lovely to eat.
Something we do for a softer crust is brush with water before and after baking, that might work.
Hi Catpoet
The smoother ryes are the best, never knew rye dough had to be that wet (mud pie) hard work always pays off doesn't it?
People on this site have created spectacular rye bread with no kneading at all, the resting seems to do the trick. I knead my rye bread, just because I love kneading. Im sort of a gluten
Thanks for your advice and welcome aboard:)
Ghazi
Well I dont do modern artisans bread. I do old fashion fine sponge sourdough and most of the old recipes I have ( 1830- 1880) are much harder doughs then the muddpies of artisan and danish breads. Longer rising times and longer proofingf time and longer time before you can it the loaf and my god your arms go weak after the kneading.
Mini Oven. Running experiments to test the old way and improve it has merit on its own. Rye has 9% protein and gluten It may not perform like wheat but there is a little something there to develop into some structure even if weak. I know after 6 minute of slap and folds the sticky rye paste is less sticky, has much better feel and handling qualities and that alone is worth the effort. The crumb is also more open in the end. If you add a YW levain to the mix, with the SD one, the crumb is even more open and light but the sour goes away - makes great pumpernickel though.
Its that feel as you say, once you've worked the dough for a bit then it changes and feels (tighter) you know something good has happened. I have yet to make a sour rye, as you say 4 weeks in the fridge with a mature starter will give me these results.
Yum, pumpernickel definitely on the list to do at some point when ive got leftover brown bread. Cant seem to find rye berries or wheat berries. Any substitutes ?