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Tangzhong milk bread deflates after cooling

ao's picture
ao

Tangzhong milk bread deflates after cooling

Hi guys!

First time poster here :)

I've been trying to make Hokkaido Milk Bread recently. the bread is nice and puffy right out of the oven, however it has a tendency to deflate/ collapse a little after cooling. Is there a way to prevent this?

 

Thanks in advance!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

baked to the correct inside temperature by checking it in the middle with and instant read thermometer.

ao's picture
ao

Thank you for you response. Sadly, I don't have a instant read thermometer. Can I hear the reasoning behind your suggestion? Do you think it is under/ over baked?

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

Are you letting the bread cool in the pan? That might be your problem. It helped in this thread.

ao's picture
ao

thanks for the link! I'm almost using the same recipe, except I'm using 2 tbsp butter instead of whipped cream.
I tip my loaves out on to a rack to let cool, It always shrinks as if the crumb cannot hold it's own weight.. I don't seem to have this problem with my other loafs with a harder crust, could it be that the crust is too soft? The texture is not dense. But it definitely isn't keeping the shape/size of the loaf right out of the oven.

This is today's loaf, without a photo for comparison, it isn't obvious, But the bread shrunk (20%? just a guess) during cooling...

This loaf was from yesterday, the photo was taken to show the crumb, but on the right side you can see the indent where the crust collapsed.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

as a loaf cools.

Try not letting the loaf proof as long, get it into the oven sooner.  Make sure the cooling rack is high enough off the counter,  stick cans or bowls under the corners if you have to with plenty of circulation all around.

ao's picture
ao

I guess shrinkage doesnt bother me as much as the collapsed side :(

As a general rule of thumb, I wait until the loaf doubles (in height). I've also found that I get a bigger oven spring if I shorten my final proof time, causing the bread to stretch abd tear on the sides. I've been baking two month now, and i've learnt that making a good tasting bread isn't horribly difficult, but making a good looking bread is definitely a challenge.

I'll raise the rack tonight, I'll update on how it goes :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Have you tried a larger bread pan to support the high hydration dough?  Another try might be to reduce the hydration by just 1%.  Make sure the covered rising loaves are not drying out near the edges of the pan.  

ao's picture
ao

That seems like a good idea. If it keep collapsing/shrinking, I might just reduce the size of the dough instead of buying a bigger pan :) I don't know my hydration, but I'm guessing it is around 65% (I don't have a digital scale) - I can hand knead the dough with no problems after the first rise.

To proof, I throw saran wrap over the top of the bread pan, the loaves don't usually rise over the edges :)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

How are you placing the loaves in the pan?   Do you pat down or  flatten out the dough in the pan or leave it rounded to expand into the sides of the pan and then rise up?  

I don't know about you, but it can sometimes be hard to judge and eyeball what "double" means.   I've developed several tricks to refresh my memory.  One is to simply take a two loaf recipe and shape all the dough into one loaf and drop it into one loaf pan.  Make a visual imprint (or better yet take a photo) and then divide the dough, rest and shape two loaves.  Round shapes can be tricky.  

ao's picture
ao

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you flatten the loaf out?I've never done this. I usually knead, flatten, roll the loaf up and plop it in the pan :) one of my pans is glass and needs to be well greased, otherwise my loaves end up being stuck in the pan. I'd imagining flattening the dough out in the glass pan will undoubtedly adhere the loaf to the glass, haha.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you flatten the loaf out? I've never done this.

Me neither.  

I have no idea but I was wondering...  :)  

Flat has a moister side surface and perhaps tearing is more likely although probably easier to judge doubling. 

This Day's picture
This Day

I read somewhere that you should turn off the ceiling fan (or any other fan) while just-baked bread is cooling.  It cools too quickly with fan-circulated air.

yozzause's picture
yozzause

That sort of goes against what happens commercially when whole racks go into a wind tunnel so that they can be cooled as rapidlly as possible for the slicing machine.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

in the recipe might also contribute.  

ao's picture
ao

I had this collapsed/ curved side right out of the oven/pan today. I'm not sure what to make of it. I *did* underproof, which resulted in a much greater spring. Perhaps the problem is under proofing?

 

cerevisiae's picture
cerevisiae

That the bread is coming out of the oven like this is most curious. Just to check, you are measuring your ingredients by weight, right?

Maybe you could walk us through your process of making the bread to see if there might be a clue there as to what's causing this. I agree with one of your prior comments that it's like the bread can't support it's own weight. I'm also thinking about Mini's idea that too much/too strong gluten might contribute.

I like dabrownman's idea that it might be underbaked, but the crumb shots I've seen don't indicate that.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Do you rotate the loaves in the oven?  Move them around so they don't sit in the same spot during the entire bake?

I was lazy the other day and didn't turn my loaf around after the initial rise.  One side was a little flatter in the shoulder curve, than the other side.   (plain oven with top and bottom coils, no fan)

Janet Yang's picture
Janet Yang

My loaves always collapses a little when removed from the pan. Since the pan is Pyrex, I lower the oven temp by 25° and bake it the same amount of time. The bread appears to be fully cooked, but I'm wondering if the oven should be a bit higher.

By the way, this is the recipe I've been using: http://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016275-japanese-milk-bread

 

chan_Betty1@yahoo.com's picture
chan_Betty1@yah...

Were you able to solve your collapsing tangzhong milk bread problem?  I occasionally have the same problem.  It collapses on itself, sometimes from all 4 sides.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

How long is the bread in the pan cooling?   What does the crumb look like?  Crumb picture would be most helpful as perhaps the oven was too warm and should have baked longer.  Cut when completely cool.

The loaf should fall out immediately from the pan.  The loaf can also go naked back into the oven on a rack to dry sides.  Next time don't proof so long before baking.  How about hanging upside down on skewers like the Italian panettone? Would poking a hole in the sides let in fresh air and relieve the vacuum collapsing the hot loaf?

Ticia's picture
Ticia

Hello! Has anyone solved the problem of the Tangzhong bread loaf "collapse"? I'm in the process of wading into this territory. I noticed that in some of the photos, the ridges of the USA pan are visible. I recently purchased one of these and have noted bread baked in this pan has more problems with side collapse than with my Williams Sonoma Goldtouch (The old Goldtouch, not the new stuff. The new pans are thinner and the bottoms are bowed out - certainly a manufacturing/design flaw.) and Polish Pottery (ceramic) loaf pans. I, too, use the NY times recipe listed by another poster. It is excellent eating, but the semi-collapse is annoying. 

 

I have read that collapse is a problem with high fat, egg, and/or hydrated dough. The recipe calls for 350 F oven. I tried pushing the temp up to 365, but that has not been helpful. I have been gradually reducing the amount of dough in the loaf pan, this, too, is not solving the problem. The next step is to decrease the hydration a bit, but I love the texture of this bread and do not want to compromise it . . . even for aesthetic purposes. I am also looking at how long I am cooking the Tangzhong. A thicker (pastier) Tangzhong would hold less moisture due to evaporation during cooking. Maybe the answer lies there?

 

If you have beautiful-looking loaves, please share your secrets. Thank you!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

in the recipe.  Or this recipe https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32997/hokkaido-milk-bread-tangzhong

or shaping the loaves differently.  Note the loaf is divided into balls about 200g each and setting them next to each other sort of squished into the pan.  It might be the shaping that makes the difference!  The loaves having the problems tend to be the ones made as one shape and not those with sections.  Try it. ...and get back to us.

Benito's picture
Benito

I have the USA Pans 9"x4"x4" pan that I use for milk breads of all sorts.  What I do that has prevented any side collapse is that I take the bread out of the pan and then place it back in the oven to bake directly on the rack for an additional 5 mins.  This has the effect of baking the side crusts a bit more and I never have collapses anymore.  You will see examples of these loaves in my blog but here is a recent one from a couple of weeks ago.

Lisa McCoy's picture
Lisa McCoy

ya'll are such pros. I feel like such a failure haha. Just catching up and baking better breads slowly

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

What's up?  Have you tried dividing the dough into sections and then shape and rise for the final proof?  This gives added support to the final structure before baking.