The Case of the Melting Dough

I was reading "Professional Baking" by Wayne Gisslen, last night, He stated that the word formula, rather than recipes are used in bread baking, because the basic ingredients are the same, but the change in the formulation of those ingredients gets different results. I agree with Wildman, not only should you follow the directions the first time but a number of times until you understand it, and when you make changes do them one at a time so that you have a knowledge of how the change effected the outcome.

... and some questions too.

* Rye is a very thirsty flour. By substituting a cup of rye for one of the original recipe's cups of bread flour, you will need to increase the hydration. That's probably why your dough at first seems very dry and dense.

* Rye is also a very sticky flour when wetted, and one that does not take to being worked vigorously. It just gets stickier and stickier. You might need to adjust the way you handle the dough when substituting with rye.

* Now a couple of questions:
(1) How long are you allowing your sponge to proof before using? And -
(2) What is the ambient temperature range the sponge and final dough are proofing in?

I ask because melting dough could be the result of an over-proofed sponge.

All at Sea

So far as I see, there's nothing wrong in switching out one cup of the bread flour for a cup of the rye flour.  The mistake, if there is one, is to stick with the same process after changing the ingredients.  The original formula called for 2 cups of bread flour and one cup of rye flour.  Consequently, it will behave more like a wheaten dough in terms of gluten development.  The revised formula has 1 cup of bread flour and 2 cups of rye flour.  It, in turn, will behave more like a rye paste (and yes, paste is the appropriate word).  Rye pastes, if worked overlong or too vigorously, will suffer a breakdown of the pentosan structure.  Once that goes, nothing will restore it.  The one cup of bread flour in the revised formula cannot provide enough gluten to offset the rye-dominated characteristics of your paste.  I believe that your revised formula will benefit from a much shorter and gentler mixing/kneading.  Aim for full mixing and dispersion of all ingredients, then stop.  You will get adequate gluten development by allowing the moisture from the water and the buttermilk to hydrate the bread flour.  If the paste will tolerate it, you may want to do one or two gentle stretch and folds to help organize the gluten.

Much as I respect Chef Reinhart, I really do question his suggestion to use diastatic malt instead of non-diastatic malt.  Yes, the diastatic malt's enzyme content will convert more of the starch to sugar, which will affect both flavor and crust color.  However, if the malt is primarily to sweeten the bread, non-diastatic malt would be a much better choice since it doesn't present the risk of turning the dough into a gummy mass; especially when using such a large amount.  Whether your organic barley malt was diastatic or non-diastatic, I can't say.

If you want to go with a deeper rye flavor and content, I'd suggest one of the formulae from Leader's Local Breads, or Mini's favorite 100% rye, or one of the pumpernickel recipes from Inside the Jewish Bakery.

Best of luck with your next bake.

Love to make Reinhart's light rye!  I use a Bosch to knead it for 2 minutes on slowest speed before a 20 to 30 minute autolyse.  Then knead again for only 3 minutes.  Usually do a stretch and fold or two during bulk rise but found that rye flour doesn't like to be kneaded too much.

Hope this helps, good luck with your baking.

Sue

Hi Dennis,

What you describe sounds like starch damage - a fault in the flour that sometimes results from the milling process.

I had it with wholegrain rye and wheat. 

The dough behaves exactly as you describe:

Because the starch granules are damaged they take in more water initially. The dough feels dry and one is compelled to add more water. Then suddenly all goes mushy. And it is nearly impossible to bake off all that water.

My recommendataion: The recipe is ok; try flour from a different producer.

Happy Baking,

Juergen

Try this great Paula Dean ceramic 2.5 qt oval covered casserole from Walmart for $25.97:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Paula-Deen-2.5-Quart-Oval-Covered-Casserole-Dish/13425085

I preheat, with cover, at 475 degrees for about 30 min.  I then put in about 1-2 Tbsp of cornmeal and then put the dough in, slash, place on the cover and then lower the temp to about 425 degrees (F) for about 30 min.  I then remove the lid and reduce the temp to about 350 the last 10-15 min.

I've had much better luck with the ceramic dutch ovens.  Just be extra careful when you pull from the oven that you place the hot ceramic on a cloth hot pad instead of the cold counter or cooktop.  The ceramic can crack, or worse yet, shatter.  Make sure you do the same for the lid as well.

http://www.breadtopia.com/sourdough-rye-bread/. It is 50/50 rye to bread flour. Even though it says sourdough there is a yeast version and videos on the technique. The technique uses S & F method, no mechanical mixing or kneeding. I know you wanted to make Reinhart's bread but I thought the videos might give you insight into handling bread with a lot of rye. 

Lloyd

Andrew Whitley's Bread Matters has a lot of information on handling rye doughs.  I suspect you'd find pointers in there that would help adjusting this formula to your liking.

1.  You substituted half of bread flour with light rye flour.  Despite what people in previous comments are saying light rye flour can not absorb large amount of water.  I'd say 60% if properly soured is about as much as you can do.   So you added too much liquid.

2.  You substituted half of bread flour with light rye flour.  Rye flour will not support gluten formation.  At 50% rye you either have to mix long and hard, and hope that your bread flour is strong enough to develop gluten (and it should be possible) or treat it like rye dough.

3.  It appears that you measure by volume.  When you do so, you pretty much declare "I will do whatever manual adjustments that will be necessary"

I think the recipe is sound with one half wheat (if you sub spelt no need for active malt in the recipe) one forth fine rye and one forth coarse rye.  I am not a fan of 50% rye.  I like more rye!  :)  

50% rye dough is like begging the dough to determine the outcome of the finished loaf (instead of you) it could first act like a wheat dough or turn around and act like rye leaving one very confused as to when to bake it.  

I would go about mixing the dough differently.  I would soak the coarse rye in buttermilk for no less than 6 hours (also increase the buttermilk to half a cup for more acid to help the rye and reduce phytic acid levels that are high in whole grains.   Develop the wheat gluten first in the mixer with the malt at about 65% - 70% hydration (autolyse and then mix more) and then add the sponge to it along with the soaker and rye and any water to bring the total hydration to about 82 - 85%.  

I would also use a cold DO method, let it final proof to about 1/3 higher and put it into the oven as the oven is about 150°C and climbing.  At about 250°C turn the oven down to 200° C and finish baking.   

Mini

Hi Ldsheridan,

You still should season your cast iron dutch oven after you clean it, with a thin coat of oil. Never leave it dry.