master shapers input needed (update!)

Slugs are beautiful creatures.  Sorry I can't help you more...  are those rips or score marks on top?  Maybe forgetting the scoring might help. 

freerk,
First off, the crumb looks nice as does the color and crust thickness.  I'm not familiar with Glezer's recipes or instructions so I'm having a tough time visualizing your shaping method.  Also, since I don't know what the hydration is I'll have to guess at its 'handleability'.

If you haven't already seen this video I did, check this out first since I use the same basic method for all hydrations.  Basically every dough becomes easier to work with when you develop some surface tension on the outside.  The trick is to always keep the sticky side away from the table until it's time to actually seal the seam.

So if I'm working with 69% hyd dough, when it's scaled the floured side is against the table or scale until I begin shaping.  When I start shaping, (as in the video) the stickiest part of the dough is not face down (6 o'clock), but instead at about 5 o'clock so it's visible from the other side of the table.  This is most evident in the olive bread portion of the video above.  Picture rolling up a sleeping bag and making it tighter.  When you'd get to the end of the roll, the seam is facing away from you making it possible to continue tucking it in tighter. 

Every bread I make including baguettes (75% hyd) I shape in a similar manner and if I think the seam might become undone, I pin the seam shut with my fingertips like in the baguette video.  You can see the same technique in the preshape, although I turn the dough around quickly to prevent it from sticking to the table.  After I preshape the dough I give it a press into the table to seal the seam since they'll be resting 'seam up'.

Anyway, hope this helps.

-Mark

edit:  One thing I forgot to mention that many people have a difficult time with.  If you notice in both videos, my pinkies are constantly 'monitoring' both ends of the loaves.  When I feel the ends are not becoming undone, they move to the outside and tuck the ends in.   The amount of tucking controls the 'barbell shape' or lack thereof, and the pinky tucking keeps the ends in.

Hi, freerk.

This is a wonderful bread. I've made it several times but not for quite a while.

As I recall, it makes a very soft, gassy dough that's a bit sticky. I didn't find it hard to shape, but you have to keep two things in mind: Be firm in stretching and tightening the gluten sheath and be gentle in pressing air out of the dough. This has been my interpretation of the "Iron hand in a velvet glove" adage, as applied to bread shaping.

As far as specific moves, there are many minor variations. All have the same end of creating a smooth, continuous sheath of gluten containing the dough. Hirtz is a master. Mark Sinclair is always a great model and teacher.

Scoring is a challenge with this high-hydration dough, but it can be done with a very sharp blade, an angled, shallow cut and fast moves without hesitation.

See this: Tom Cat's Semolina Filone from Maggie Glezer's "Artisan Breads" and this: Tom Cat's Semolina Filone from Glezer's "Artisan Breads"

Note that, for me, the crumb is certainly well-aerated, but not full of huge holes by any means.

Hope this helps.

David

I know how you feel, trying to get the shape just right and the crumb nice and filled with holes can be quite frustrating at times.  I watch the videos over and over and practice as much as I can....

Joanne

Freek, I am so with you in the frustration of shaping. I have had everything going along fine until it all unravels at the shaping stage. I know even as I shape and bench rest the dough that it is doomed because it's not tight and it goes into the oven misshapen and crestfallen (well, the crestfallen part is me). Also, frustratingly, my experiments with slashing, steaming, temperature, and whatever mad things we occupy ourselves with :)) are compromised because I don't know if it's because of my lousy shaping or other factors.

1. What is the best makeshift surface one could come up with?? I ask because I don't really have a countertop to work with. It's either covered in cloth or is tiled with grooves in them. As such I end up using a silpat - yup, you read right, the NON-STICK surface so desired for so many other functions but not for shaping bread :)) As such my dough just slides around. I have learnt to do decent ones if the dough is not high-hydration but the wet ones are hell.

2.In fact, my greatest problem is the stickiness so I wonder if anyone else has the problem.  I have learnt that barely wet hands are the best when it comes to folding wet doughs but that does not extend to shaping. I have used flour, oil (it has worked at times) and even water (!). Does everyone use flour? Is it just me/ my silpat surface or does the coating of flour not get absorbed into the dough anyway? Flour does not seem to work for me. Or am I not using enough??

And just to share, yes I would say marble is a good investment. Had the fortune to try it just once and it was a dream. Was told by a pro it's the best. That said,I think once you have the technique you can work on any surface.

And freek, you can try as others have suggested, refrigerating the dough. I live in a tropical climate and sometimes I have like a 5-min window to work on a stiffer, more well-behaved dough before it starts to 'melt' on me. And as someone else mentioned, other than ease in manipulation, a cold bulk/final rise also improves flavour and gives you greater flexiblity.

In fact - this is not for you but anyone else who might have problems - I have found out through trial and error that dough temperature is fundamental with sourdoughs. I think it can't be highlighted enough. Temperature is my greatest challenge.

I love watching these bread-shaping videos. They make it look so easy heh heh. Everyone has their own method but in the end I think it boils down to the same thing. One video I enjoyed was this posted by Marie-Christine (if you havent checked out her blog, you should!). The baker has a very nice slow and relaxed way of going abt it, and what I appreciated is how he says to relax and adapt to your dough. Sometimes I am so nervous abt 'getting it right' (because I only bake once a week, if at all!) I have to remind myself to take a step back. it's like what bnom says abt slashing the potato first :))

Finally, I diverge, but does anyone else using makeshift proofing baskets have a problem of the fabric causing unslightly creases and folds? I use thick cotton but it still bunches up and adds ugliness to the already ugly dough. Will using linen (which is thicker??) help?

Thanks everyone

oops, forgot to post the link

http://www.farine-mc.com/2010/01/batardbaguette-shaping-gerards-method.html

Hi ww

Have you seen David's shaping tutorial? His use of markers provides a great picture of what we are aiming at when it comes to creating a sheath.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19346/shaping-boule-tutorial-pictures

You'll note he works on wood, with almost no flour when shaping. Gerard too is working on a wooden bench, though he uses more flour. (That whole series MC wrote is wonderful isn't it!)

Then there's the inspiring KAF videos to which LindyD provided a link recently:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21730/video-lessons-master-baker-jeffrey-hamelman

Again wood/little flour.

I use a beautiful board I received as a gift some years ago, which I had been  reluctant to use as a chopping board, not wanting to spoil the beautiful grain. Once I started baking bread, it was the obvious choice, for shaping on. I use little/almost no flour, allowing the slight graininess of the board, to gripe the dough and assist me create tension. 

So my suggestion for a makeshift surface is a wooden board. It need not be an expensive board, you could recycle a piece of a wooden wine box (if you can find a generous source) or similar.

When watching videos please remember you are watching people who have shaped thousands of loaves and who have developed a rhythm which allows them to work quickly. I'm sure there's something you can do with dexterity that others who are learning can't..... Shaping is not a race, better to work in slow motion and execute each individual 'move' well, that's why I like David's tutorial, unlike the videos (of course they are great too), each step in the process is obvious.

As for the cloth, I'm wondering if the bottom of the container you are using to proof in isn't too narrow, that there is simply not sufficient room to spread the cloth out without it bunching. Many people on TFL have written about old fruit baskets and the like that they use for proofing - do you have any charity /goodwill shops nearby where you could buy containers with a better shape? How about taking your proofing cloth when you go shopping and test a variety of shapes to see which dimensions work best with your cloth. I used plastic colanders cheaply purchased at an asian store before I was gifted some wonderful cane bannetons. I simply floured them directly (as I do my banneton) with a rice flour/AP blend and never had any problem releasing high hydration doughs.  Even now with the very humid and hot-for-here conditions it hasn't been a problem. Establishing a good outer surface really helps with this.

Cheers, Robyn

I tried a variation of the olive bread from Tartine. I wanted to try baking under a cloche-like device. Lacking both, i improvised using a metal pot and a clay pot turned upside down as lids with the loaves baking directly on the stone. I must say i was impressed by the amt of steam a baking loaf generates. When i lifted the pots, steam was just blowing out of my oven. I think it is quite a handy method. For me, this was purely academic though. The diameters of my pots are too small - even taking care to subdivide the loaves, they expanded width-wise and there were accidents ;)

I also wanted to test if there was a difference betw baking under a preheated & non-preheated lid. However, after the first batch, I found out I could not hope to contain the baking loaves under the pots so abandoned them for an improvised lid using a disposable aluminium tray, worked great too. I THINK there is not much to be gained from using a preheated lid, seeing the amt of steam and oven spring I got. Given that a heavy and hot clay/cast-iron pot is not the easiest thing to handle, I would not preheat the lid if I were to go with this method.

Back to shaping. I think I've understood the technique. My problem really is the surface and the STICKINESS. In desperation, I even tried shaping it on the plywood study desk! But the dough just wants to stick onto the table. It is a highly hydrated dough - upwards of 75 % but I wonder if the stickiness is normal. It's like trying to work with a creature from the deep with suction pads that latch onto anything. But I bore in mind what you said abt using just the slightest bit of flour to create tension and worked with that. So in a way, even with less-than-ideal surfaces, I can try using flour to help me out.

perhaps I am looking for something too neat for wet doughs. Are your seams tight for wet doughs? Mine are shaggy-looking still. I still get quite nice oven spring and the tastewise it's good.

Daisy: what do you mean by undermixing?

Robyn: I tried something new yesterday! I used shower caps haha to line the bowls and it worked much better. I know, shower caps, what would the bread purists think. Linen is recommended because it absorbs moisture supposedly but for me the advantage of the shower cap is its thinness so it does not bunch up and lies quite flat instead against the bowl. My starched towels used to create too many folds. Also shower caps come rounded so I just need to tuck the ends sort of under the bowl. Used wheat and rice flour and it worked well. Shower caps - I already use them to cover the dough while proofing - who knew they had so many uses!

The sad bit is I broke my baking stone. I had placed it on a very very flat coaster to cool, and my brother-in-law's explanation is that during the cooling process, the fact that it was not evenly supported all round caused weight to be exerted unevenly along the sides and pulled it downwards, and it cracked as a result. Maybe I should put this up on another separate post as a warning to other bakers - assuming they don't already know ;))

thanks both for your suggestions!

Hi Feerk,

I would say that's a nice and tight loaf you have baked :) seems like you've put your shaping troubles behind you.

I agree that flours can be variable. Once i bought a packet of organic flour and maybe it was not aged sufficiently (read that flours must be aged for a while; freshly milled flours affect the gluten formation), my dough just spread and spread...

ww