Challah braids losing definition during rise & bake

Hi Jennifer,

You are setting yourself quite a challenge to make Chollah using sourdough.   That said, some posters have produced magnificent versions using this method [txfarmer comes to mind, and I have a feeling David snyder too]; so, it can be done.

Perhaps if I just point out one or two difficulties with using the natural leaven, and link these directly to what seems to have happened to your lovely braiding?

One obvious starter is the increased proof time using sourdough.   This is bound to have some impact on the plaiting; it's just a matter of keeping that down to a minimum.

Here, I have a feeling that your dough structure is breaking down to quickly, and the yeasts are not working fast enough to compensate.   The Chollah recipe I use [see: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15230/ananda039s-blog ] relies on a very strong dough, with plenty of protein from egg, as well as the flour.   The dough is softish, and enough bulk time is used to allow the dough to relax before assembly.   But the yeast is kicking through using a ferment, and there are plenty of improving ingredients in there such as butter and sugar!   I don't know Maggie Glezer's formula, I'm afraid.   You could look at my formula, and compare it with the Glezer one, in the light of what I discuss above.

But a sourdough based dough is likely to break down due to its acidity, and combined enzyme activity.   So, you need to be confident your dough is not too acidic, and that the yeast element is working flat out.

Hope this is of help

Best wishes

Andy

Hi Jennifer,

You could quite easily omit the milk powder from my formula; it would work well without.

I'm not a "no-knead" baker, so it wouldn't be right for me to comment on this; all I know is a strict regime of S&F is required, but beyond that, this is a world I haven't been tempted to venture into as yet.

Personally, I would use the sour element as a flavour component, but also utilse ordinary yeast for greater leavening power.   Unless you really insist, ie have a strong desire for, chollah raised only with sour, that is?   There are lots of enriching materials in a chollah formula, and these really do inhibit yeast activity.   Restricting yourself to slower working natural yeasts makes it even harder for the dough.   Maybe you are just pushing it a bit far?   I would definitely agree that you need to feed your starter into a highly active state.   You'll just have to keep experimenting.

Meantime, here's some inspiration from txfarmer! see: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17725/sourdough-challah-shape-hungarian-celebration-loaf

Very best wishes

Andy

Hi,

If you flour the strands, it will make it difficult to plait the chollah nice and tightly, as you cannot make use of the important friction between dough and work surface.   Additionally, any loose flour will remain thus, and will not bake out.   Some chollah recipes call for a tight dough, which is bound to make life difficult.   But if you are needing flour at the plaiting stage, then there is a good chance that the dough is too soft.

BW

Andy

Hi, Jennifer.

You obviously have way more experience than I with challah baking, but I have made Maggie Glezer's sourdough challah a couple of times with good success. See this: Sourdough Challah from "A Blessing of Bread"

Again, I suspect you know more about this than I do, but my impression is that, to get optimal braid definition, the tricks are to braid loosely and to guard against over-proofing.

Andy's thought about the dough being "too soft" is valid. This dough is less stiff than most challah doughs. However, rather than adding flour, I would compensate by how you handle it.

I hope some of the real challah mavens on TFL offer some additional suggestions for you.

David

I don't know the recipe you refer to, but it seems to me from the pictures that there may be too much leavening going on during the long rise. I have an excellent challah recipe on my blog (not sourdough, however) that always wins praise and is relatively easy. Here's the link:http://breadmantalking.blogspot.com/2009/10/challah.html

The strands should not be overly floured since that will a) not bake out and 

b) dry the dough and make it dense and heavy.

Hope this was helpful. 

Regards, David at: breadmantalking.blogspot.com

This Challah whiz(video) also stresses that flouring(not overly) the strands is key to good braid definition. Although the sourdough almost surely brings other issues to the matter.

Comment at the 2:20 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0WmCsdHV50

I haven't used Maggie Glazer's recipe but I have used Rose Levy Berenbaum's recipe based on Maggie's recipe.  The sourdough in that challah is not used for leavening or flavor per se, but is used as a dough conditioner--a pate fermentee or old dough, if you will.   There is also yeast for leavening.   The RLB dough is firm and braids beautifully, and holds its definition well. 

I never flour my ropes.  I spray oil very lightly on my marble board with my trusty oil pump and find that the slight tackiness helps me form the ropes baugette style and roll them to length.  I braid fairly tightly--too loose and the whole thing falls apart. 

I don't cover my challah dough after braiding.  I give it an initial coat of egg wash and let the challah proof at room temperature, then a second egg wash just before baking.  I think letting the air dry the surface a little during the proofing may "toughen the skin" and maybe that helps the challah to hold its shape and definition?   

This is not one of my better-looking ones, but it's OK.  Sorry for the thermometer in the picture, but you can see the definition of the braids is very good. 

Hello,

I recall a post about Challah on TFL by this very talented baker:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19644/glezer039s-sourdough-challah

I wonder if you re-posted your question on that thread if this baker would be willing to share how they achieved such a beautiful result?

Regards, breadsong