Dear all,
I made my first sourdough bread and am looking for some feedback. It tasted good, but it had a bit of a gummy texture. It also did not look very good:
This is the recipe I used: https://bread-on.earth/A-FOUNDATIONAL-LOAF
My sourdough is made with whole grain rye flour by Farmer Ground.
I have ordered most of the books that are recommended by members of this forum, but I'm still waiting for them to arrive, so I do not have any books to help me evaluate my bread. Would love to hear what you think!
If someone could recommend a beginner-friendly recipe, I'd also be very grateful. I will not be using that same recipe again. The many steps were a bit too much for me at this early stage.
Best wishes,
Luisa
it is under-fermented.
The recipe itself is typical but the explanation reads like a story book. Overly complicating what should be a more simple process.
Start off simple.
Low hydration, bread flour + a high percentage of mature starter. No need to do stretch and folds. Knead till full gluten formation and bulk ferment till 75% risen.
For Example:
...even though the score has slightly charred edges. That says to use a lower bake temperature for a longer time. Remember, home ovens can vary a lot from what the temperature dial says.
TomP
Recipes are only good when exact materials are used - and that's rare. Get used to it - expect a change - and keep going. I find it funny that you can explain the same thing a million ways - it means the same thing - but that's just me. And beware the link. Enjoy!
first off, congrats! You baked your first bread!
I agree with Abe. It looks under-fermented. And Tom has a point: 480F/250C is a bold temperature for a full 40 minutes.
Another question: what did you do for steam. The recipe calls for baking in a dutch oven, which, if you leave the lid on, creates its own steam. But your pic shows your bread in a loaf pan - so it would have needed an external steam source.
Many breads need steam to keep the crust pliant as the bread rises and to prevent scorching. Problem is, if you have a gas oven (as I do) steaming is often difficult and sometimes impossible. I tried and tried, but my breads only took a big leap in quality when I found a dutch oven & decided to try it.
Keep on!!! In addition to what Abe has suggested, there are many great recipes some great home bakers have posted on this site. It all depends what kind of bread you like. Specify and I'm sure all sorts of suggestions will come flying your way.
Rob
Thank you so much for all your feedback! It’s incredibly helpful!
Rob: I don’t have a Dutch oven yet, so I placed another loaf pan on top of the one pictured. I too have a gas oven.
I’ll keep all of your suggestions in mind and keep trying!
This type of small granite ware roaster is inexpensive and will serve as a makeshift Dutch oven for small loaf pans. A few tablespoons of water in the preheated pan will flash to steam for your bakes. Best wishes. Dave
excellent idea, Dave.
And, Luisa, I found my round DO on the street in NYC (a neighbor was, for some unknown reason, throwing it out). If you don't want to go the dumpster diving route, NYC Craigslist lists a few for halfway reasonable prices - https://newyork.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=dutch%20oven#search=2~gallery~0 (but note: if you do get a Le Creuset with a rubber handle, spend the 30 bucks or so and buy an official metal replacement. The rubber ones can only go up to 400F/200C. I tried baking a rye at 450F/232C in my brother's Le Creuset and melted the handle off.🤣)
Rob
Thank you so much for your tips, Rob and Dave!
Hello everyone,
I followed Abe’s recipe. I used 50% all purpose flour, 50% whole wheat flour and the same sourdough as last time (whole rye flour). I baked on 450 for the first 20 minutes and then uncovered on 430 for 15 minutes. Here’s the result:
I would love to hear what you think. I’m wondering why it has no holes. Perhaps the high percentage of whole wheat? But it definitely looks better than the first time, and I enjoyed the process much more.
Best wishes,
Luisa
All in all much better.
The reason for a tight crumb is because when I was coming up with the recipe I had in mind that it would be all bread flour! and you have changed it to 50:50 bread flour + wholegrain flour.
If I had known you wished to do this then i'd have increased the hydration.
But overall it has been fermented well and looks like a tasty sourdough.
Yea, Luisa! That looks good. How's it taste? As Abe noted a high %age of whole grain flour will generally make the crumb tighter and you won't see the famous holes. If you don't want to make a pure white loaf, you could consider trying a pain de campagne.
Rob
Thank you, Abe and Rob.
It tastes great! I’m from Denmark and grew up eating a lot of rye bread and whole wheat bread, so I like dense bread. Have you tasted the toasted sesame wheat loaf from She Wolf bakery? It’s a different kind of bread, but I’d like to copy it one day.
How great that your bread tastes great!!!
I know she wolf but I haven't tried the sesame. Thanks for giving me a reason to. I'd say it's a great goal to have a bread you'd like to recreate in your home oven.
Rob
Holes are not nutritious or delicious.
Gary
Dear all,
I now tried using 100% all purpose flour (Abe’s recipe). The dough was very sticky (similar to the first one I made) and didn’t rise as much as the second loaf I made using 50% wholewheat. I’m finding it very difficult to handle such a sticky dough, especially the kneading and shaping is challenging. I haven’t been able to acquire a DO yet. Here’s the result:
Best wishes,
Luisa
If whatever the dough is can't handle the water - reduce it. Simple really. I should note - expect differences with different flours - you'll see - and that's a warning. Enjoy!
I'd say this is definitely progress 👏
My first thought looking at the crumb is that the dough should bulk ferment a bit longer. Maybe also warmer??? How warm is the dough? What is the proofing temperature?
If you still use 150g rye starter (and 500g AP flour), then this might partly explain the stickiness. It could be also the dough structure. A few stretch and folds should minimize the stickiness.
A dutch oven would be ideal. If you don't have one, you could use a (very) big metal bowl or pot (no plastic handles!). Just cover the bread / bread pan with the bowl / pot. It's the same. It traps the moisture.
Some good points there.
If you have used 150g wholegrain rye starter then that would result in a different dough/bread to using 150g bread flour starter. Although I didn't specify bread flour for the starter I just assumed it was.
And I agree it looks like it needed a longer bulk ferment.
Next time try all bred flour for the starter and main dough. Plus, knead it for longer till you get a strong smooth dough. You seem to be erring on the side of caution when it comes to the bulk ferment so be more adventurous.
First off, that's a respectable outcome, Luisa. On the whole, the crumb is quite promising. How did it taste?
I'm with sparkfan & abe that loaf number 3 looks a little underfermented. I'm guessing it was a little underdeveloped also, and needed a bit more kneading/stretch & folds. You should be able to feel (or if you're using a mixer, see) the gluten build structure and get less sticky as you work it -- even with a 30% inoculation (the %age of starter you are using -- 150g of starter against 500 g of all purpose flour.) How much shaping are you doing before you put it on the parchment & in the loaf pan?
Maybe I'm so used to rye flour that slightly sticky is normal for me (rye flour is an amazingly effective adhesive) but I'd expect the bread to come together without so much stickiness. If you want to, you could try dropping the inoculation - like maybe cut back to 100g of starter or even less - and give the bread a bit more time fermenting on the counter. This will also contribute to the flavor - the counterintuitive generalization being more starter less sourness, less starter, more sourness.
Keep on!
Rob
Thank you so much for all of your guidance! I will keep all of your suggestions in mind next time and knead/stretch and fold more and bulk ferment longer. It was easier for me to feel the gluten build structure when I used 50% wholewheat, but I’ll keep trying to get a better sense of the sticky dough.
Two things that can make handling sticky dough easier. First, wet your hands, but sparingly since you don't want to add to the water in the dough any more than you can help. A misting spray bottle will work, or you can dip your hands into a bowl of water - but then shake them off.
Second, handle the dough gently and grasp it with short, quick actions as much as you can. Try not to hang onto the dough. Good luck!
TomP
Cold hands makes dough easier to handle. Warm hands will cause the dough to be more sticky.
I've found that disposable gloves seem to stick a little less - tight, stretchy ones like nitrile or vinyl. I actually clean and reuse them, and they are easier to clean the dough off than your own hands. As I've gotten more skill handling sticky dough I've stopped using the gloves, but they helped a lot before then.
But nowadays I just aim for a hydration that makes it a pleasure to handle. It's difficult to explain how to handle a high hydration dough one has to handle it just enough to shape but not properly handle it. But as the saying goes... change the flour and change the recipe but changing the hydration doesn't (or something to that effect).
I'm not sure that a dough with a lot of rye is ever going to be a pleasure to handle unless it's relatively dry
I'm experimenting with pumpernickel and there is no pleasure in the dough handling.
OTOH, a deli-style rye loaf with 30 - 40% rye can end up reasonably decent to work with - by the time you get to shaping the loaf. By the last S&F it can come around.
Right. So let's not get out over our
skisautolyses here. Luisa followed Abe's suggested 'first time' recipe. That called for 150g of starter to seed a dough containing 500g of all purpose flour. Her starter is 100% rye and that's the only rye in the loaf -- so, including the flour in the sourdough, that's a baker's percentage of 87% white flour and 13% rye flour. -- Rob