Hi Everyone,
I just joined, though I've been baking and doing sourdough for about 12 years now. I just started a new sourdough culture and it's really perplexing me. Any ideas or help would be amazing. Thank you!
About 6 weeks ago I decided that it would be fun to do a new sourdough culture, rather than my usual one that's just sourced from KA bread flour. That one has worked well and consistently for years, but is pretty middle of the road. I ordered in some organic unbleached stone ground bread flour from France, as well as some rye. I've been using a 3/1 mix of bread flour to rye and depending, if I feed every 12 hours it's 1/2/2 or every 24 hours its 1/4/4. That's been fine and my starter is expanding 3x per feeding.
All good there. BUT when I actually bake with it, it's a disaster. I'm getting nearly no rise in bulk, no matter if it's 4, 6 or even 12 hours. Though at 12 hours the dough acts overproofed (gooey, all gluten structure broken down). For oven spring the shorter proofs have given some, but not nearly what I get with my ol' KA based starter.
My recipe has been 450g KA bread flour, 400g water (I've also shorted this down to 385 with no change in result), 50-75g starter, 20g rye, 30g whole wheat, 11g salt. Process: Water & starter mixed until foamy, 350g flour mixed. Auto for 30 minutes. Add salt & remaining 150g flour. Rest another 30. 4x stretch & folds at 30 minute increments, then in a marked container to bulk. I usually bulk to 60-75% increase before shaping and moving to a banneton and the fridge.
This starter culture is giving me no rise. I do get some surface bubbles but no expansion to speak of in bulk. Oven spring has been maybe a half of normal, and with the super long proof, none at all.
The starter culture is strong, and triples involume ever feed...but once I use it for dough, it's not doing anything. Temp changes in proof don't seem to change matters. I generally proof at 70f but have tried this one up to 85f with no difference.
Any help, ideas, thoughts? The bread has enough structure in bulk that it should be holding CO2, and there's a few surface bubbles but no volume. Today is the 3rd time I've tried this starter and I created a levain last night using KABF to feed it, and it expanded as it normally does and acted in-jar like it has been for weeks. So I don't think it's the flour?
After that I simplified my life znd I used Instant dried yeast for the shole year varying a few things each time I mixed a new dough. I found out from those tests (inspired by what I read here and elsewhere) that the following practices may help with volume,
Now back to using a sourdough starter. I noted last year that my problems were worse when I used a mixer and I still have no clue why I could get a not-too-bad loaf when I mixed by hand and I lost the dough if I used a mixer.
I will try again with a sourdough starter using the techniques I learned during this past year while working with dry yeast. Unfortunately the new starter I started a few weeks ago was a failure.
I, like you, wish to understand why some sourdough starters will break the gluten when dry yeast doen't. I have started adding sone kefir to my formulas to get the effect of the lactic bacteria but without all the gluten being eaten away.
Thanks for your input!
Yeah, this is a weird one. I've had probably 5 different cultures across the past 12 years, not for killing them, intentionally trying new things, or one or two pauses in home-baking. I've never had one that acted like this at all.
I have a loaf in banneton in the fridge right now that I proofed for ~6 hours yesterday...and didn't rise at all during that time, but it's about the proof-time I go with the current temps with my other culture. I'm going to drop it in the oven shortly and see what it does.
I can certainly add honey...I've got about 150lbs of it on hand...We have hives and always more honey than we can use...and that may be a fun experiment to see what it does in this case. I've used it with some bakes in the past with oat or whole wheat flours, etc.
I generally don't use a mixer with any of my sourdoughs. I mix by hand, then do stretch and folds for structure. I've been doing that with this culture too. I wonder if I just keep the culture alive and growing it'll 'grow out of' whatever it's doing. Other options I may try; baking a loaf with both starters to see what happens, take some of this new culture and stop feeding it the French flour and see what it does if I move to regularly feed it KA bread flour.
I also may try a test with less salt and/or one with no salt. I've been wondering if the yeast/bacteria are extra sensitive to salt, since the starter culture rises just fine when I feed it, but once I make bread with it, it goes nowhere.
...also, I did taste test one of the finished loaves that was flat. The flavor was good, well developed...so the starter is doing something...just not leavening.
And here's the result...actually slightly better than last week (now the third loaf I've done with this starter), but still a loser. Probably about 1/2 or so the size of what I usually end up with.
And by comparison, what I usually get:
My wife just walked by it and said 'It's a tiny little loaf!" ...
Or not enough yeast. Sounds to me like a very out of balanced starter with way too much tasty bacteria and not enough yeast. Adding honey helps? Could be another clue. Isn't honey antibacterial possibly reducing the bacteria in the starter? I think if you are after more variety of good bacteria why kill them? I see no mention of temperatures which might help figure this out and I would like to know more details vabout the starter.
How long does a certain feeding at a particular temp take to peak?
Have you tried larger feedings to boost yeast? (Something like a 1:10:10 ratio.)
What is the starter like 24hrs after the 122 feeding? Enjoy!
I'm afraid I don't have much to offer in terms of explanations or solutions, but I've been grappling with similar issues, so I'm very interested to see the responses.
I'm a novice, as I've only been baking sourdough for 4-5 months or so. My dough barely rises during bulk ferment. (I once tried to see if the dough would double if left long enough...it went loooooong, but did not quite double, nevertheless it was a sticky mess that could not be shaped at all, clearly over-proofed.) So it's really hard to gauge when to stop bulk fermentation, because I never see the "classic" signs (e.g. lots of bubbling, jiggly/aerated feel...). Everything I've read says that this is more than likely due to a weak starter.
Well, the starter I use began life as 100% organic rye (100% hydration), but I've transitioned it to a 70/30 blend of bread flour and organic rye (80% hydration). Conventional wisdom says to strengthen a weak starter by feeding at higher ratios. Admittedly, my starter is kinda sluggish at room temp, but if I incubate in my instant pot (lowest yogurt setting, about 82F) it does great. For example, a 1:8:10 feeding will peak in less than 24 hours (peak being about 2.5x increase in volume). I followed this regimen for about two weeks. It was reliably peaking and seemed very happy. But still it won't give my dough any lift.
Sorry, I don't mean to hijack your thread. By the way, your "sad" loaf looks great to me! I share your frustration, though.
Di
Thicken it up (less water) and go from there. It should be a lot thinner after 24hrs - that's ideal. Enjoy!
I just ran across this snippet, it is from a longer video where Hendrik from Bread Code questions sourdough experts on various topics. This snippet features Karl De Smedt "The Sourdough Librarian" who offers some tips for getting a starter that favors yeast vs. LAB, which Mini suggests might be the problem.
https://youtu.be/nQWlG1buMM8?t=1025
He describes making a stiff starter but keeping it in water (!!!) which I found really surprising. You refresh often (ideally every 4-6 hours) so that it does not completely dissolve in the water, I guess? I may just try this for my next bake.