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Proofing times and 100% rise for Tartine bread

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Proofing times and 100% rise for Tartine bread

I’ve been attempting the Tartine recipe for about a year now with varying degrees of success, little incremental improvements here and there, but never achieving a great rise. I persist  because I do like the texture and taste. Following the recipe and going for only a 60% rise has in the past resulted in underproved and or under fermented bread, so I pushed the BF and generally retard at 100% rose ( as per aliquot). At the same time, I was improving my starter. It never really doubles, but goes to about a 80% growth in 4-5 hours. I’m in London ( England) and my kitchen is cool, about 21C. 

My questions are:

Now my starter has improved should I dial BF down and go for a more modest rise before cold retard? 

From the picture below, does this loaf look over fermented? 
Thanks for any advice

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Your photo is not the easiest to use for a diagnosis (too much light in the background and not enough on the bread and also lacking some detail because of that), but the bake doesn't look bad.  I can't tell whether the couple of large holes are from shaping or from too much fermentation (and not eliminating large bubbles) or from a loaf that is under fermented.

For what it is worth, here is a link to a blog I posted on making a Tartine bread.  https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/64305/tartine-basic-country-bread

Perhaps you will find some insight there, especially on the topic of the length of the bulk fermentation and how to judge whether it is time to move on to the pre-shape.

Thanks for your questions, and definitely keep asking.

Happy baking.

Ted

wafflesandbeer's picture
wafflesandbeer

Hi Ted,

Thanks for posting that link to your blog.  Quick question on it.  It seems like for your leaven, you use a much higher amount of starter than the Tartine recipe.  It looks like you use 20g for 100/100g flour and water, but the book says  200/200g flour/water.  Is there a reason you boosted the amount of starter?  Thanks.

I'm asking because I've been having issues with it taking a long time for the leaven and BF to finish the required rising and I'm wondering if adding more starter would help.  

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

On page 47 of Tartine Bread, Chad Robertson says to take 1 tablespoon of mature starter and add 200 grams of water and 200 grams of the 50/50 flour blend.  Sometime long ago I weighed a tablespoon of starter and found that it was about 40 grams (at least for mine).  Rather than have 440 grams of leaven when I need only 200 grams for the dough, I opted to scale down to half of that and use 20 grams of starter plus 100 grams of water and 100 grams of the flour blend.  Hence my proportions match those in the book.

What is the temperature of your water?  Typically I use water that is in the mid-80F range for the leaven and whatever it takes for the dough temperature to be at least 74-78F after the initial mix (i.e., after adding the salt and held-back water).

Also, this is winter, and kitchens are cooler in the winter.  Are you taking the temperature of your dough?  A relatively small difference in ambient temperature (say 8 degrees) can make a significant difference in the time it takes for yeast to do its thing (see Peter Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice for more discussion of this).

Happy baking.

Ted

UVCat's picture
UVCat

first, just saying that i don’t have any of the Tartine books, but i have used the Tartine Country Bread recipe in the NYTimes. also, your post on this recipe is great and your results look wonderful!

 

when you measured a tablespoon of your starter and found it was 40g, were you using a measuring spoon, or a regular eating spoon, and was it heaping?

 

i ask because 1T is 0.5 fluid oz (1T of water weighs 0.5 oz), which would be about 14 grams. i would expect a starter/leaven to be a little less dense than water, but also to naturally make a “heaping tablespoon” — but still 40g seems like a lot. i just tried the measurement twice with my starter and a tablespoon measure and got 16g and 18g. 

 

fwiw, i’ve never followed those directions for making the leaven in that recipe; i build it 1:1:1 in the winter and 1:2:2 in summer. i always boost my starter amounts when a recipe expects warmer temperatures than i can achieve (room temp is <60F overnight now, would still be <70F overnight in summer). so, i completely agree with the advise you’re giving here, but was just curious about that measurement.

 

best,

c

 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

You wrote "when you measured a tablespoon of your starter and found it was 40g, were you using a measuring spoon, or a regular eating spoon, and was it heaping?"  This was done several years ago, but I do recall using a measuring spoon.  As for whether the starter was heaping or not, I simply do not remember.  My chief purpose was to avoid having to measure a tablespoon of starter each time I wanted to make a Tartine bread.  I tend to convert to grams with any recipe that measures by volume.

You are correct that I am probably using more starter than what a half tablespoon would be, but the amount I use seems to work fine for me.  After the overnight, my leaven does float (i.e., is lighter than water).

Although I do not have his more recent books, Chad Robertson apparently (from what I have gathered in reading comments by others) changed his leaven development approach since writing the original book.  My impression is that he uses a very high ratio (well above 1:10:10) now.

wafflesandbeer's picture
wafflesandbeer

Thanks for the reply.  That makes sense what you are saying about your measurements.  A tablespoon of my starter is about 15g. Quite a difference.

For the recipe, I've been carefully following the book and the videos from The Sourdough Journey.  My water temp is always around 80 degrees F when mixing, and my dough temps are in range of 78-82 for BF.  I take the temp every 30 minutes when stretching/folding.  I use my oven with the light on to maintain these temps throughout BF.  I even have the luxury of getting to use my basement for the overnight 65 degree fermentation of the leaven.

Despite all this, my leaven and dough both seem to struggle to rise within the times given in the recipe.  My leaven goes overnight at 65 degrees, but then needs another three hours at normal room temp to get where it needs to be.  My first bake, I let BF go 10 hours waiting for a 20% rise and it barely got there.  My second and current attempt, I got there at the 6 hour mark.  I will be baking it today.

My first thought was maybe my starter is weak, but I'm using a 20 day old starter that has been consistently tripling in size every 4 hours after 1:2:2 feedings.  It shows all the signs of being a very strong starter.  I also have been making the leaven when the starter peaks.

I'm perplexed as to why my rises are so sluggish.   

UVCat's picture
UVCat

yeah, i’d be perplexed as well :)

 

i think there is something about the recipe i don’t understand, because the leaven is basically a 1:10:10 build (at least) and there is no way my starter would peak in 12 hours after that feed. even at 80F. at 65F it would take more than 24h to peak. so: the intent must not be for the leaven to peak? but then, like you are finding, i would think a “young” leaven would not rise the dough fast enough for the 3-4h bulk in the recipe.

 

so, i guess i should not say that i’ve really made this recipe, i just build a leaven that will be about at peak when i mix the dough and then i go from there. i’m doing a better (than usual, for me) job making the proof be at 80F today, using my oven with the light on, but not taking temps of dough or water (lazy). i think 4h will be about right for the bulk, and then i’ll do the 3-4h final proof at ~80F and then bake tonight. i’ll post pics if i remember to take them before we eat!

 

anyway, all that is to say that maybe someone who understands better what Chad Robertson’s method for the leaven is supposed to achieve will enlighten us, but if i were you, i’d consider just upping the the amount of starter in the leaven and then seeing if you like the results.

 

hope that helps!

-c

wafflesandbeer's picture
wafflesandbeer

Yeah, the recipe definitely calls for a young, non-peaked leaven.  Maybe that's why the recipe only requires a 20-30% BF rise? I dont know.  I'm still new to this.  

UVCat's picture
UVCat

this was my second or third time doing the tartine country bread (from the NYTimes' published recipe), but probably the first time that i was really careful about doing the proof in a 80+F environment. i let the bulk proof go 3.5 hours and it felt right on the edge of over-proofed, so i only did 2h of final proof and then it spent a few hours in the fridge before bakin g.

from the external shape, i'd say it might be slightly overproofed (usually i get better oven spring, but i also botched the score on this one), but the crumb was really nice: really airy and light. the flavor didn't seem as deep or tangy as my usual loaves which are fermented for much longer (10-16h) at lower room temp (60-65F), so next time i might only do this loaf if i can do the final proof entirely in the fridge for ~12 hours to develop a little more flavor. but, overall i was happy with this bread and the texture was wonderful. 

besides using much more starter in the levain (i did a 1:1:1 build at ~60F for 12 hours) the main deviation from the recipe is that i did a single 500g boule, way smaller than the recipe (which makes two 1kg loaves). (sorry if the pics below look terrible, this is my first time inserting an image into a post.)

 

 

 

-c

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

My initial sense is that your overnight at 65F is part of the reason for your slow rise.  Your 10-hour BF was likely the result of a leaven that was not ready (and that was because of the slow overnight).

Was your leaven bubbly?  Did you try the float test?  A bubbly leaven will float.  I have made the mistake of trying to use a leaven that was not yet ready, and the result was a mediocre BF and a loaf that refused to spring in the oven (i.e., remained fairly flattish).

As an experiment, try putting your leaven somewhere overnight where the temperature is around 70-72F.  I think that will make a difference.

wafflesandbeer's picture
wafflesandbeer

Will try this next time, thanks! The leaven wasn't bubbly at all after the overnight.  I had to let it sit at a higher temp about 2-3 hours to get any activity.  By the time I used it, it was bubbly, but not nearly as much as my starter.  The book and video uses three tests, the float test, smell test, and percent rise.  It passed all three before I used it.  

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Thank you for taking the time to post, your step by step account of your process is really interesting. I think the main difference is I only do 4 stretches in the dough each time ( basically 12 o’clock, 3 o’ clock, 6 o’clock and 9 o’clock. I do this 5 times so that’s 20 stretches in all, and you seem to do a lot more. However I knead for 2 minutes when mixing fluid, leaven and water and again after mixing in the salt.

Your schedule does not state what percentage rise you go for before doing a cold retard. Do you know consider that, but instead look out for other markers such as dough textures, appearance of bubbles etc- basically, how Fido you know when Bf is done? 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

You should consider kneading more than two minutes.  In the initial combining of ingredients, I typically mix them together for six or eight minutes, with the primary aim being to make sure that there is no dry flour.  If necessary, I add a small amount of water (maybe 10-15 grams), but only enough to get all of the flour moist for the autolyse.

In the blog post I mixed the dough after the addition of the salt by using slap-and-folds (aka French folds), but if I mix in the Camrbo tub the process typically will take ten minutes or so.  During that time I want to feel the dough begin to tighten from the gluten formation.  If I do not feel the strength building, I continue the process.

As for judging the end of the bulk fermentation, I do not use a gauge for a percentage of rise.  Here I repeat what I wrote in the blog: "My experience with this dough in particular and doughs in general led me to note several factors, and I point these out mainly for those who are new and want some clues and signs to watch for.  The dough had billowed, which showed up in the expanded volume, but also in the feel during the final S&F.  There were numerous bubbles on the side and bottom of the container.  (I often lift the Cambro tub and look at the underside, and if there are no bubbles I know that the bulk fermentation stage needs to continue, whereas here it was ready to end.)  During the last S&F session the dough did not cling to the side as much, indicating the further development of gluten and the transformation of the dough into a unified mass.  When I lightly jiggled the container, the dough wiggled gently back-and-forth a bit."

The view from the bottom of the tub is especially important for me.  I can tell from the number of bubbles there whether the dough has reached the point that it can be divided and pre-shaped.  All of the other factors I mentioned are noted too.

By the way, my stretch-and-folds are like yours.  I pull the four edges up (3-6-9-12 on the clock) and maybe one more, but that's about it.

Keep asking questions.  That is how we all learn.

Ted

Teetrinker's picture
Teetrinker

Hi, I have been in the same spot as you. For 1 1/2 years, I have tried to achieve that Tartine look - super-open crumb & ear - in vain.

As you might know, the US & Europe measure the protein content at different levels of moisture, so that 12.5% protein of a bread flour in the US correspond to 14.9% protein in France. A few specialty flours reach this percentage of protein in Europe. A few more selections of specialty flours with lower protein content but high protein quality (W value), especially Italian ones, are available. So, it's very difficult to get the look & open crumb of breads made from US wheat varieties with European flours.

By using a 15% protein Italian flour, I was finally able to replicate the Tartine look. The texture of the crumb, often described by American bakers as 'custardy', was o.k. Honestly, I prefer the texture (and taste) of lower protein flours, especially stone ground flours from France & Italy.

So, my humble recommendation is that you enjoy the texture & taste of your bread. For me, watching videos of French bakeries provided a welcome reality check on my expectations and showed me how expertly crafted breads look when lower protein flours are used - like yours, essentially.

As for the mysteries of bulk rise, there's a great video series by Tom Cucuzza on the Sourdough Journey website.

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Thank you Ted for your generous tips ( and putting up with my post’s annoying typos). Good to know you do similar stretch and folds to mine. I don’t make the dough in a glass container so can only see the top, I think I will go out and buy one though. It’s very interesting that you knead for so long, previous to trying Tartine I used a poolish based recipe ( poolish was about 1/3 of the finished bread volume) and kneaded for 10minutes. For a long time I simply didn’t believe no knead bread was possible.

Teetrinker, my flours are about 13% protein and mostly Canadian (easily found here). Maybe I shouldn’t fixate so much on achieving the huge rise you see on some American based sites. I am looking to use more stoneground, local flours because sometime the flavour of my sourdoughs isn’t that interesting. My favourite bakery in Paris ( du Pain et des Idees) makes an outstanding bread ( not a sourdough but a very slow fermentation) with heritage french flours and it looks like an overproved failure with a rise of about 2 cm but tastes amazing. I also love Tom Cucuzza’s dispatches from the International Institute for the Advancement of Sourdough Science and have learnt a lot from him. 

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

The thread is no longer in chronological order, at my end anyway. For what it’s worth, my leaven is 1:1:1 so 40 g starter, 40g water and 40g flour. And I only use 400g of flour and 280g of water. The ration of leaven to flour in the NY Times Tartine recipe would never ever be sufficient to rise the dough for me. 

UVCat's picture
UVCat

yes, sorry, i’m never sure who it is going to look like i’m replying to… i was replying to Waffles and Beer because they asked about upping the amount of starter in the levain. the thread is not chronological, because of the reply structure. 🤷‍♀️

 

the nyt version (which i’m pretty sure is the same as the versions i’ve seen posted on here) is 9% pre-fermented flour. i think you are doing 13% — a totally reasonable way to decrease the fermentation time. if i hadn’t found a way to keep my dough at 80-85F during the bulk and final proofs, there is no way it would have complied with the timings in the recipe.

 

i think you are working at lower temps, right? then i would expect much longer times and wouldn’t worry about it. my 9% pff doughs that rise at my (winter) room temps take 12-16h for bulk. that timing actually works better for my schedule because it’s either overnight, or all day. i prefer to do bread-related activities first thing in the morning, or in the evening. :)

 

btw, i think your bread that you started this thread with looks great! pushing the bulk longer, increasing the temp (if that’s possible), or further increasing the amount of pre-fermented flour are all ways to get slightly more uniformly open crumb, if that’s what you’re looking for.

 

anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread and hope this helps,

c

UVCat's picture
UVCat

oh, and, now i remember you asked if you had pushed bulk rise too far and should dial it back. your loaf doesn’t look over fermented to me, looks close to perfect, fermentation-wise. just my opinion, of course.

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Thanks UVCat and no apologies needed. I’ve learnt a lot on this thread. I have one bulk fermenting right now. I have given it more kneading time ( 9 minutes) and have given it a tighter final shaping. Also more fermentation after final shaping. Will post pictures tomorrow. 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

During the 9 minutes of kneading, did you feel the dough change?  Looking forward to the photos.

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Well I must admit there was 4 minutes of kneading when I mixed the leaven plus flour and water. Then 40 minutes rest, then adding the salt and another 5 minutes kneading. The dough definitely was more cohesive and even elastic at the end of the second round of kneading. It separated off easily from the sides of the ceramic bowl. 

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny
Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

I’m a lot happier with this one. I think the extra kneading time has made a difference. I also started the leaven in the morning on a Sunday so I was able to capture it when it was young and not past it’s peak, which happens if I leave it to mature overnight. Other difference is a tighter pre shaping and shaping. I’ll be bold and say my problem with the Tartine recipe as per the NYtimes ( I don’t have the book so I can’t comment on that) is the lack of kneading, and the very small amount of starter in the leaven. If I followed this to the letter I really don’t think I’d make a half way decent loaf. 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

Yes, that looks very nice.  That is a fine crumb, and the bake around the surface looks uniform.  How is the flavor?  That counts the most.

Happy baking (and happier baking too).

Ted

wafflesandbeer's picture
wafflesandbeer

So were you able to fit the leaven and bulk fermentation in one long day, then overnight in the fridge for final proof?  I guess that would work if the leaven was left to rise at a higher temperature. 

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Hi, yes I was able to fit it all in one day and cold retard overnight. I left the leaven in my oven which I had previously left on for 1 minute, it was probably about 25C in there. It was ripe enough in about 6 hours, BUT it was a 1:1:1 ratio leaven, not the tiny ratio in the Tartine recipe. The flavour is good, fairly sour but I like that.