The Fresh Loaf

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How to make my starter stronger?

Miller's picture
Miller

How to make my starter stronger?

I created a starter a few days ago as discussed in this thread. However, it takes more than 12 hours to double in volume and to show significant activity at 24.7° C ±0.2° C (I use a thermostatically controlled proofing box). The starter is not dead, but it's extremely sluggish.

How could I strengthen it? In particular:

  • Should I feed it more frequently than once every 24 hours?
  • At what ratio of starter to flour and water?
  • Should I discard any quantity of starter before I feed it for strengthening purposes?
  • At what temperature should I keep it?

My starter initially contained rye flour, but I gradually changed it to unbleached bread flour by successive feedings.

phaz's picture
phaz

With the changes there will be differences. You've had a few changes and would expect some differences. I'm sure it will make bread - sooner or later. Enjoy!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Exercise! 

I feed Slow-Mo at 1:1:1: I hear tell that offering a challenging meal to your starter will cause him/her to rise to the challenge. Try 1: (Mother) 2: (Flour) 2 (water) in grams for little waste 5:10:10.

wally's picture
wally

If you only created your starter a few days ago, don’t expect a healthy starter as of yet. That can take up to 10 -14 days. In the meantime, a feeding every 24 hrs should be adequate at that temp, unless you see a lot of activity (fermentation bubbles) and then hours later many fewer bubbles, indicating its running out of food. 1:1 ratio of flour and water (by weight) is standard. You should discard the majority of your starter (approx 3/4) with each feeding.

Give it time. Along with the yeasties you’ll be growing lactobacilli, and in the process sometimes there’s a war going on between good and bad bacteria until the lactobacilli wins out. 

Abe's picture
Abe

Every 12 hours...

1:0.5:0.4 (ish) until your starter is strong. From then onwards it's a levain build of 20:100:125 keeping the 20 back as starter for next time and using the remainder in your dough.

So as long as you're seeing activity a feed will be:

  • 156g starter
  • 68g water 
  • 85g flour

High hydration so should ferment faster and encourage some strong lactic acid ferment. Not overly fed so shoukd have no issue in maturing within 12 hours. Plus, it gets a more regular feed. One thing to note that at this high hydration it might froth more then rise. But you'll know it's fermenting well. 

When ready try a levain build then if all goes well switch to his method of keeping a starter. For instance...

  • 100g bread flour
  • 125g water
  • 20g starter

12-16 hours. 

225g levain is used for the dough and 20g is kept back as starter for next time. So it's had a very good healthy feed. You never build in excess. 

For a full write-up see here. Since you already have a starter then no need to begin at day one. Skip to day two and onwards. 

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Should I feed it more frequently than once every 24 hours?

Probably, if you intend to keep it at 25C, but why have you decided on that temperature?

At what ratio of starter to flour and water?

What ratio are you using now? It's important to get the full picture of what you're doing currently to know how it has led to the results you're getting. It's important to establish where the starting point is before deciding which direction you need to go.

Should I discard any quantity of starter before I feed it for strengthening purposes?

Discard or use, that's up to you, but you need to remove a portion if you don't want it to get bigger and bigger with each feed. Underfeeding leads to sluggishness.

At what temperature should I keep it?

What is the average range of your room temperature?

Abe's picture
Abe

Is little and often. Instead of giving it a huge feed, which it's having trouble eating through anyway, going for smaller feeds twice a day keeping it active and fed would encourage a stronger starter. 

Miller's picture
Miller

I chose 25° C because at a lower temperature there wasn't as much activity. Average room temperature is 20° C. At night it drops a lot.

I haven't settled on a ratio yet because I don't see any result as regards the speed of volume increase.

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Okay, in that case let's start with the details of your last feeding and what it has done since then.

1. What flour are you using, and does it list barley malt flour or an equivalent in the ingredient list?

2. How much starter/water/flour? Was the starter risen at the time you last fed it, and by how much?

3. How many hours has it been since you fed it?

4. What has it done since then?

Let's not worry about the speed of the volume increase for now and make sure that everything else is aligned first. Speed is a result of a number of variables, and each starter is a little different.

FWIW, 20C isn't too low. I keep mine at room temp which mostly ranges 19-21C right now. I do adjust the feeding to compensate though, and it stays wonderfully mild through the winter with great rising power.

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

You are like a genius for sourdough starters. In fact, Your pineapple juice method is the inception of Slow-Mo's existence! 

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

That's very kind, and I'm glad that Slow-Mo has done well for you :)

Miller's picture
Miller

1. I'm using ordinary (supermarket) bread flour. It's unbleached and I had used it in the past with quite good results with my previous starter.

2. I use a 1:1:1 ratio, but if necessary I adjust it so that the starter has a toothpaste-like consistency.

3. I tried feeding it every twelve hours and alternatively when no satisfactory result was seen, every 24 hours.

4. It does respond after 24 hours by rising just a bit and having some bubbles on the surface. It smells slightly of alcohol. Obviously it's taking a long time to respond.

At a lower temperature there would be no reaction after feeding the starter.

maybe I should change the flour that I use.

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

I'm using ordinary (supermarket) bread flour. It's unbleached and I had used it in the past with quite good results with my previous starter.

Is it (still) malted?  Not all bread flours are these days.

It does respond after 24 hours by rising just a bit and having some bubbles on the surface. It smells slightly of alcohol.

Was there ever a time when it rose well (more than 5-10%), and when was that?

I need you, please, to do two things for me right before the next feed:

  1. Take a closeup picture from the side if it's (hopefully) in a clear container, and another from the top.
  2. Taste it and let me know how sour it is.

Thx,
dw

Miller's picture
Miller

Thank you for your interest in this puzzle.

My flour is wheat flour and doesn't list barley malt in the ingredients list. It only states "flour".

I fed it at 1:1:1 plus a tiny bit more water (maybe 4g) and the starter weight was 30g. The starter had risen by about 20% when I fed it (which was 24 hours earlier).

Today I fed it again at the same ratio as above and I attach photos showing what it's like 12 hours after feeding it. The top surface appears to be a bit dry. The starter has risen more than on other days, but it doesn't taste sour.

Abe's picture
Abe

Who had the same issue. He followed the recipe I posted and had a strong starter going in a few days. Your starter is probably imbalanced. Regular smaller feeds should keep the yeasts happy but not raise the pH too much. 

Debra Wink's picture
Debra Wink

Well, that is not the news I was expecting to hear. This is enough rise to prove that you have active yeast. I was thinking they may have dropped out. But there is plenty to work with here. In light of the flour information, I recommend trying a malted flour if you have access to one, and see if that makes a difference.

In my experience, a skin forming is usually a sign that it's too warm, but it could also be that your container is too big for the amount of starter and there's too much air space over the top. Otherwise, it's not really hurting anything aside from the dry parts being unusable.

Start with the flour, a smaller jar if you have one, and 12-hour feeds if it continues to rise dependably. If that improves things, we can optimize your feeding rate/frequency, and temperature depending on your goals.

This looks promising to me :)

dpierce's picture
dpierce

I’m not an expert by any means and my starter certainly isn’t the most enthusiastic one out there, but when it was new and super sluggish I found that feeding it a 1:6:6 ratio (half AP, half wg.dark rye) and leaving it for about 36 hours really supercharged it. I discovered this by accident when I forgot to feed it over Christmas, haha. I guess the little guys just needed more time to eat - this could be the case with yours.

Also, adding in some whole grain rye or whole wheat would probably help as there’s more for them to eat than in plain AP flour, as I understand it.

Miller's picture
Miller

Thank you for the tip. I'll add it to my notes for future reference.

Ming's picture
Ming

In general, if your starter is not sick, it should be really happy and active at 25 degree C regardless of what feeding ratio you mix it with. Make sure that is the starter temperature not your proofing box temperature. Now if it is only a few days old, all bets are off, as it is not ready to behave like a mature starter would be. Make sure you listen to the experienced folks here and that may not even be enough as it might take some luck and how good you are as a home baker wanabe to make it work. Good luck!

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi Miller!

How could you strengthen it? 

Easy. The answers below will work but only if the source of the problem is in flour, timing, ratio or temperature. If the problem is the yeast itself, then there is not much you can do, except trying again using a new flour or a new recipe.

If you accidentally propagated a slow gassing species or strains of yeast on your starter, then nothing wil repair it, force it to produce more gas. Some species of wild yeast produce up to fifteen times more gas her hour of fermentation than others. This was shown by the scientists who collected hundreds of sourdough starters from all over the world. Some starters are inherently slower than others because inside them live different, slow gassing species of yeasts.

- Should I feed it more frequently than once every 24 hours?

Yes. Fed it twice a day. After the first feeding it will ferment for 6-8hrs, and after its second feeding -  for 16-18hrs

- At what ratio of starter to flour and water?

1:1:1

For example, 70g starter, 70g flour, 70g water. Use a 500ml measuring cup or a jar to watch it triple or quadruple on volume.

- Should I discard any quantity of starter before I feed it for strengthening purposes?

Yes, discard everything but 70g needed for refreshment

- At what temperature should I keep it?

27C

- My starter initially contained rye flour, but I gradually changed it to unbleached bread flour by successive feedings.

Prepare a 5% rye blend, i.e 950g bread flour + 50g whole  rye flour , mix it well with a spoon and use it for your starter feeds. Instead of whole rye, you can use 5% whole wheat or 5 % bran or crushed bran cereal flakes.

Make sure you whip the starter well when you feed it, stir it by hand or using a hand mixer to aerate it well and see the signs of gluten forming and developing. Yeast loves oxygen, it will stimulate its growth. A teaspoon of honey added with water will also work like a miracle cure for a sluggish starter. 

See if your brand of bread flour has vitamin C (ascorbic acid) and malt (or amylase) added to it on the list of ingredients on the package. If not, add them to your 5% rye flour blend yourself. A pinch of vitamin C in powder and 20g of diastatic malt powder per one kg of flour used to feed the starter.

Good luck!

Miller's picture
Miller

Thank you so much for the information. I'm beginning to accept the idea that there may be something wrong with the yeast. As this is not the first time that I made a starter in the last three years and it has been done from my current location, then I'm willing to accept that the flour and/or the yeast must be causing the problem.

Anyway I'll try and use your advice as much as possible.