Help troubleshooting failed panettone
Two years in a row I've had failed panettone. I Just don't know what has gone wrong. Basically everything goes perfectly all the way through to molding the dough, and then they just don't rise, or only rise a little bit. The current batch has been rising for roughly 19 hours (!!!) and is only about halfway up the mold.
First, an important question: how long can I safely let these "rise" before baking? I feel like this is a ridiculous amount of time already, but I'm trying to be patient.
Now, some details:
- They are rising in a proofing box at a static 27-29 degrees C.
- I've had success with this recipe in the past: https://www.greatitalianchefs.com/recipes/panettone-recipe
- My LM is very active, tripling in three hours
- I have been strengthening and refreshing my LM for weeks, and used it successfully in a brioche as well as a regular sourdough loaf (which I know isn't nearly as hard to leaven).
- The "first dough" easily triples overnight (about twelve hours).
- I'm getting good gluten formation with successful windowpane tests.
- I do not have a PH meter, so I'm not sure about the PH
- In this batch I even added 1/4 teaspoon of instant yeast during first dough to ensure a proper rise (I don't normally do this, but I felt it necessary after my other recent failures).
You might be able to see why I'm at such a loss. I'm far (FAR) from an expert though, so I'm hoping maybe I'm missing something obvious.
I keep coming back to one of two scenarios.
- My LM, despite all appearances, is somehow just not strong enough to raise the final dough, even with the help of the 1/4 tsp instant yeast.
- One of the ingredients I'm adding during the second dough is stunting/killing the yeast.
Possible culprits? I add vanilla extract instead of vanilla bean. Can alcohol stunt it? I recently read that raisins might have chemicals on them that could negatively effect the yeast. I didn't rinse them, but I did soak them. Orange blossom water was added, but that's normal I thought. Iodized salt? (I was out of fine sea salt). I make sure to use unsalted butter.
Sorry if this is a hodgepodge of rambling thoughts, but as I said, I'm completely flummoxed. Any help troubleshooting is greatly appreciated. And again, letting me know how long I should let them sit in hopes of a slow rise continuing.
Here are some pictures of the dough at various stages.
Thanks again!
Did the dough weigh out to approx 2150g?
I cannot tell what size those panettone papers are but from the angle of the shot, I wonder if they are too big for the amount of dough you have. The smaller container, at least, looks underfilled. It should fill between 1/4 to 1/3 of the panettone paper.
From BREADTOPIA :
"*This recipe makes a little over 1.1kg of dough. If you have different sized panettone molds, you can assess how much dough to put in each mold using the following formula: Calculate the volume of the mold in centimeters and multiply that number by 0.4 or 0.37 to get the grams of dough for your mold. For a mushroom top use 0.4 and for a more recessed panettone, use 0.37. The formula comes from the end of this blog post. This website also lists dough weight for various panettone molds."
Your dough looks great and it sounds like you are paying close attention to it. I do not think that any of the additions have impeded your dough. I am not a panettone expert, either, so I cannot offer anything more than I have.
Hang them up immediately after baking for the best loft. Good luck and post back your results.
Thanks so much for your reply!
My final dough was only 1880 grams for some reason...
That might be part of the problem, but I'm not sure it's the only problem... The big ones are 7 inch molds. I used some kind of calculator at some point that suggested the 7 inch mold should have 880 grams of dough, and that those little ones should have 60 grams. It's HIGHLY possible I screwed up those calculations.
After 24 hours rising, I finally decided to just put them in the oven. I was so convinced they were dead, I didn't even bother scoring the dough or putting butter in the middle. I just threw them in the oven in disgust. And then this happened...
I wasn't expecting any oven spring, let alone nearly doubling in size. They're hanging now, but I'm feeling more hopeful now that they will at least be edible.
So, yeah, you're almost certainly right about the volume (I have to double check with the info you posted), but I do think the rise was still also quite sluggish for some reason.
They look lovely-just short. I have read some panettone rises going on 20-24 hrs but that must be a real nail biter. I've had other doughs go from proofed to over proofed in a matter of minutes. Good job! Post a crumb shot when you are able. The crumb tells a lot.
I finally found this Panettone mold calculator ! I was looking for something like this when I replied last evening. According to the dough calculator, you need 1054g of dough for each 7 in mould.
Thanks! Yeah, they got darker than I would have liked, and obviously the rise and volume issue, but I think they'll be okay. If nothing else, there's always panettone French toast!
Oh, wow, okay, so I was off by a good couple hundred grams. I'm not sure, but I do think that would have gotten them to "above the rim."
Huh...so now the extremely slow rise. All I can figure is my LM must not be up to snuff. Maybe I'll pick up a PH meter and go back to basics with the LM.
I'm cutting in probably on Christmas eve, but I'll be sure to come back and post pics of the crumb. I'm very curious myself and kind of expecting it to have that tell-tale "cakey" texture indicative of failed panettone.
I found a few other sites with dough weight recommendations and they are all over the place-anywhere from 800-1200g for a 7 inch panettone mould. So confusing!
Even cakey, I'm sure delicious.
Panettone issues are most often due to imbalances in the lievito madre (LM). Your LM is strong enough to triple in 3 hours, but may be generating too much acidity, which damages the gluten particularly in the 2nd impasto. This is a common problem, and everybody goes through this. Keep working on your LM to bring the acidity down if this is the case.
Your 1st impasto may have fermented too long, becoming too acidic in the process, leading to the issue I mentioned above.
Possibly you are undermixing your 2nd impasto and not developing the gluten, can't tell from the photos. Your final result doesn't appear to have the desired texture.
If you had a good 2nd impasto, your paper pans would have been acceptably sized for the amount of dough, though about 1050 g per loaf is best I think.
Thanks so much for the input. I'm thinking I may need to invest in a PH meter if I want to ever figure this out. I don't trust myself with the "taste the dough" method because I wouldn't know what to look for.
The 2nd dough took over an hour (roughly speaking) to complete, with rests in-between. I usually do like 10-15 minutes of mixing with 5 minute rests in between. It was pulling good windowpanes and felt quite elastic, but I also don't have a whole lot of experience so maybe I'm being too impatient with that second mix?
Out of curiosity, what else specifically should I be looking for there that you aren't seeing in the pictures? The one picture of the dough on the countertop was 20 minutes after the first shaping and before the final shaping, for reference. And the pic of them in the mold was maybe a minute after I put them in there.
Thanks so much for all the help!
A pH meter will probably help you understand, I agree. Get a spear tip one for bread dough, preferably. I have the Hanna Instruments one. Your dough looks good in the pans, nicely rounded after forming.
Keeping it at 28-30C in the proofing chamber after forming? It should take about 4 to 5 hours to rise halfway up the pans, 5 to 6 cm from the top of the pan, at the edge (the center is higher). Bake at that point.
But your dough appears to break down somewhat after forming,
Also, what is the baking temp? 150-155C works well.
Great, thanks, I'll check that pH meter.
Yes, 28-30 in the proofer, but seemed to not have risen much if at all after 6 hours.
I baked at too high a temp (around 175, then dropping to 170 once I noticed they were actually getting some oven spring). As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I was angry about how the dough was turning out and thought it was basically dead, so I just threw it in the oven without any real thought (I had already had the oven set at 175 for cookies). Oops... And then they had oven spring and looked halfway decent.
But yeah, usually I'd bake at a lower temp.
I'm hoping with the pH meter and a little more reading I can get the LM to a better state, and then also work the second dough longer.
I was also doing some other reading and realized maybe my flour is at fault too. I was using a cheap all purpose flour that I added vital wheat gluten to, getting the protein level to around 14%. Maybe not the best idea...
How long do you work the second dough in total (I use a kitchen aid mixer with dough hook). How much longer do you work it after you finish adding the butter? I'm always afraid I'm going to overwork the dough and not sure exactly how to tell when to stop. Is there a better test that the windowpane method? Or is it just one of those things you learn to look for when you've done it a lot, like you just know from the feel of it.
Anyway, sorry for all the questions. Thanks again!
If you find the youtube channel for "Pizza Pane e Fantasia", there is a nice video showing the entire mixing process using a planetary (like KA) mixer. I find it useful to watch people actually mixing to get an idea of what to look for.
I have not tried using all-purpose flour plus gluten, though I have heard that it doesn't work well. The overall flour profile is important, not just the gluten level. Extensibility is key. So that may be one of your primary issues.
Awesome, I'll check out the videos, thanks! Yeah, I'm honestly not sure why the flour issue didn't occur to me sooner. I guess I figured as long as I had a "strong flour" in the correct percentage range, that I'd be okay. Do you have any flour type recommendations?
I think I've read that the pizza flour (00) is good, and I've read others will use KA bread flour.
I use either Petra 6384 panettone flour or Dallagiovanna panettone flour. Both have around 15% protein and good extensibility.
If you look at the Instagram account of Brumits_ , he is making panettone with "weaker" flours, which is easier to understand with Italian flours that have a W rating. This approach is gaining some popularity, and I have been experimenting with using KA bread flour for my second impasto only.
Lots to learn with panettone!
There really is so much to learn! Thanks again :-)
did you ever figure out why your panettone dough was not rising? Mine is doing the same thing. My PM is very healthy and more than triples each feed with great ph numbers. I don't understand why when I mix my primo I get gorgeous dough but it never rises. It only barely doubles after 15 hours in the proofer at 79F. So frustrating! Any ideas why it doesn't rise?
did you ever figure out why your panettone dough was not rising? Mine is doing the same thing. My PM is very healthy and more than triples each feed with great ph numbers. I don't understand why when I mix my primo I get gorgeous dough but it never rises. It only barely doubles after 15 hours in the proofer at 79F. So frustrating! Any ideas why it doesn't rise?