The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Starter vs Pre-Ferment

Craig's picture
Craig

Starter vs Pre-Ferment

Hi Folks,

I am going to make some whole wheat dinner rolls for the upcoming holiday, and the recipe I'm using calls for a pre-ferment to be made from 170g bread flour, 170g water, and 1.5g instant yeast. This step needs to be done the day before assembling all the other ingredients which will then eventually end up in the fridge overnight, making the whole process take about two days. So I was wondering if I couldn't just use my ripened starter for the pre-ferment and omit the overnight creation of the pre-ferment. Seems to me this should work just fine, but it's always good to double check these things with People Who Know Better. Thanks

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

…but I would expect the starter to have a different taste profile than the poolish. Starter has more sour, dairy notes to me than poolish which is lighter and yeastier to my nose. In a whole wheat dough not sure it would stand out. Honestly I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. I’m guessing the final dough incorporates more yeast. I would still stick to the recipe, substituting 340 g of your 100%(?) hydration starter for the poolish as the only change.

Out of curiosity, why do you have so much starter available? I’d have to build a levain over several generations to yield that much.

Good luck,

Phil

Craig's picture
Craig

I don't normally keep that much starter on hand and would have to build it up to that amount the previous night so I can get 340g total (170g flour and 170g water) for the recipe next morning and still have starter to feed for future use. I'm really not as concerned with the overnight build up as I am using yeast vs. starter and having two jars of something to deal with. I've gone to all the effort to build up a lovely starter, it seems a shame not to use it in place of yeast. I've even seen recipes that call for yeast and starter, which rather confuses me. Anyway, as you suggest my plan has always been to simply substitute starter for poolish and stick to the rest of the recipe. I just wondered if it was a viable substitution. 

Ming's picture
Ming

If you have the experience to know what you are doing, then you could substitute and change any recipe however you like. With that said though, why even bother to use a recipe if you don't plan on following it, just create your own and go with it. 

mariana's picture
mariana

Yes, you could, and it will probably improve your bread, but

1) not "ripened starter", use young starter. Do not let it become too acidic. Let it maybe double after feeding it or less than double (10-25% rise is enough) and that's it, use it in this recipe right away, 340g of it). Let the remainder of the starter ripen fully and store it.

2) add those 1.5g of dry yeast mentioned in the preferment formula to your bread dough along with the starter. This recipe needs it. Your starter on its own will never have that much yeast, not even when it is fully ripe.

Craig's picture
Craig

Thanks Mariana. I'm curious as to why you suggest using both the pre-ferment described in the recipe and also the sourdough starter. Isn't that too much? Anyway, here is the complete list of ingredients for this recipe.

Ingredients

The pre-ferment

170g strong white bread flour
170g water
1.5g instant dried yeast 

The main dough 

250g strong white bread flour
399g soft white flour (AP)
199g whole wheat flour
579g milk
20g salt
299g pre-ferment (from above)
3.5g instant dried yeast
50g honey

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Craig, you can use both the starter and the yeasted preferment in your recipe

or

use young starter instead of the preferment and yeast that was listed as part of the preferment.

In both cases, starter would act as a bread improver. It will enrich yeasted bread with lactic acid, improve bread volume and bread keeping qualities. 

Variant a)

Preferment, aka poolish (170g flour, 1.5g yeast, 170g water) + 1Tbsp ripe starter +.the main dough ingredients.

The yeasted preferment is prepared beforehand, as in the original recipe. The ripe starter is added at the moment of mixing the main bread dough, dissolve it in milk first.

Variant b) 

Preferment, aka "young starter" (170g flour, 1Tbsp ripe starter, 170g water) + 1.5g yeast + the main dough ingredients.

 That 1/2tsp yeast (1.5g) should be added at the moment of mixing the main bread dough along with 3.5g yeast, for a total of 5 g dry yeast in that original recipe. Dissolve yeast in milk.

I suggested variant b). That you refresh your sourdough 1:10 - 1:20 and once it begins to rise and smell deliciously, use 340g of it in the recipe (instead of yeasted preferment) and keep the remaining 20-30g of that starter (1Tbsp) for the future uses in baking.

Strictly speaking, there is no need to prepare two large preferments, one with yeast and another sourdough and add both to the bread dough, and I did not suggest that, but I've seen it done as well. In that case, it is done to activate yeast and sd microflora and accumulate flavors, while protecting yeast from sd microflora. Normally sd microbes would compete with commercial yeast and suppress it if added together into the same preferment.

  

Abe's picture
Abe

Has a durum bread with two pre-ferments. One sourdough starter and the other yeasted. 

mariana's picture
mariana

Abe, where did you see that recipe? I will take a look, I have his 2nd edition. KAF website says either sd or yeasted, not both, just one preferment.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/jeffreys-golden-durum-sesame-bread-recipe

 P.S. Found it! Page 174, second edition, Durum Bread. 30% flour, all durum, is prefermented in stiff biga and 10% flour, all bread flour, is prefermented in liquid levain. The yeast is added both to the biga and to the final bread dough.

Thank you, Abe! Such an interesting bread, I would like to give it a try.

Abe's picture
Abe

When I saw your edit. Hope you enjoy the recipe Mariana. Post your results and thoughts. 

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

I incorporate both poolish and levain into 80% of the breads I bake. No particular reason other than boosting pre-fermented flour percentage. I get great results, so even if there is interspecies competition, can’t see it hurting much.

Just sayin’,

Phil