The Fresh Loaf

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Tartine- anyone adding more starter to leaven than recipe states?

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Tartine- anyone adding more starter to leaven than recipe states?

I have rebuilt my starter about 5 weeks ago. It performs very well in its container usually doubling in 4-6 hours ( Jim in London, England and my kitchen is coldish) , but when mixed up into the Tartine leaven according to NY times recipe, everything slows down. Just wondering if anyone has tried increasing the amount of starter stated in the recipe? 

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

MoneyPenny,

I do it all the time, mostly because I don’t want to deal with discarded starter…seems wasteful. It just increases the amount of pre-fermented flour in your dough…not an altogether bad thing. So formula calls for 200 g and I made 280 g at 100% hydration. I have 80 g extra, half flour and half liquid. So I need to reduce my final flour addition by 40g. Same with the liquid. My spreadsheet does the math in real-time now but I used to do it by hand. Could change your bulk time, but better to use the dough and not the clock to tell you when to bulk is at the desired level of development.

Makes sense?

Phil

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Thanks Phil that makes total sense. I use an aliquot jar and aim to get to 75%  rise before cold retard. I think I’ll experiment with adding in more starter. I guess it probably needs to mature a little more, 5 weeks isn’t that long in the scheme of things. 

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Can I ask, does this technique help with better rise? 

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

If you’re using aliquot monitoring, you should be golden. FWIW, in addition to extra starter, most of my breads include a poolish (100%hydration) as well, usually built to equal starter mass +/-. Same math applies to the final dough additions.

Best of luck.

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

…rise. When building cold retarded doughs (most of mine) I usually stop countertop bulk at 25-40%, so maybe it’s quicker in my case. But I also tend to make 2-3 kg doughs so I can bake fresh loaves several days in a row. This largish mass actually continues bulk in the fridge for several hours until the yeasty metabolism is sufficiently chilled. Not really clear on what you’re asking.

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Well, due to nearly always having disappointing rise despite letting aliquot go to 75% ( it crawled away yesterday, taking about 10hours to get there) I’m just wondering if more starter in the mix would get there faster, maybe allowing better rise, possibly due to a better yeast: lactobacillus bacteria ratio, given the cold temperature and long proof. But maybe I’m clutching at straws! 

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny
Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Here’s today’s bake, apologies for poor quality of picture.

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

…is what you’re after?

Lately I’ve been getting increased spring with an interesting method I harvested on the intertubes. I preheat my oven per standard 500df for 30-60 minutes. Slide loaf onto stone, apply steam and turn OFF the oven. For a boule, 10 minutes later turn the oven back on to 450df, reapply (or not) steam and continue baking. For baguettes, I only turn off oven for 7 minutes. Easily getting 20% greater spring. This method did not do much for 80% hydration ciabatta.

A bientot,

Phil

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

 Merci Philippe. But the Cost of Living crisis means this intriguing technique is out of my reach 😔. 

foodforthought's picture
foodforthought

Merde! So euro energy crisis means reduced/no pre-heating?

Your crumb looks pretty good from here in any event. Keep doing what you’re doing and file for future reference.

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Thank you. I preheat to the max temperature in my oven (265C) then put the dough straight in. We are seeing our fuel bills triple here ( or more) so I can’t justify long pre heats, I already feel quite self indulgent lighting the oven a couple of times a week. 

UVCat's picture
UVCat

i’m not sure if this is what you were asking, but i’ve never followed the proportions given for the leaven build in that recipe (1T of starter to 200 g each of flour and water), i always use more starter. my kitchen is never 80F (at least not when i want to bake!), which seems to be what that recipe expects. I make my leavens for the target weight that will be used and adjust how much starter goes in depending on my room temp at that time.

 

so, in cold weather, where my overnight kitchen temps are 60F or less, i do 70g starter:70g flour:70g water to get ~200g of leaven that’s ripe in 12 hours. in summer, i’ll do 40:80:80, or 20:90:90, etc. i think having the leaven at the right maturity (at peak, just before peak, or whatever) when you mix the final dough is more important than following the feed ratio a recipe suggests.

 

this is different from adjusting the amount of leaven in the final dough, of course, but you’ve already gotten good advice on that.

 

-c

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Thanks is UVcat that’s great advice. Intuitively that’s what I was looking for, if the temperature is lower then it makes sense to add more starter. I feel I am inching my way closer to making better loaves, but I must say it’s a long process ( about 10 years in my case!).  

UVCat's picture
UVCat

to me! i’m about 10 years in now, too; 7 with sourdough. always trying to get better and more consistent.

 

i think one thing that helped with my oven spring was doing my final proof in the fridge and baking straight from there (no warm-up on counter). got that idea on here :)

 

thinking about your energy cost predicament: when i was trying to bake on a tight evening schedule i would start the dough in a cold vessel in a cold oven. definitely faster than preheating (only added like 10 min to the baking time, iirc). the only problem i had was bad sticking of the bread to the vessel. would have been easily solved with parchment paper, i bet, but i never tried that. i think i get better spring now that i have time to preheat, but i wouldn’t hesitate to go back if my energy costs went way up.

 

-c

Missmoneypenny's picture
Missmoneypenny

Thank you all for the encouragement 🙂 The last loaf is good and I feel the crumb is going in the right direction, I’d just like a little more rise. 

Sugarowl's picture
Sugarowl

If by more rise you mean warmer proofing temperatures, then do you have a slow cooker? You could place the dough on parchment and stick inside the ceramic crock. Turn it on low and wait for it to warm up. Then just turn it back off. If you have a warm setting, you could just try leaving it on that. The ceramic crock is a great insulator and stays very warm for hours even off. I've baked bread in the slow cooker before, but you'll want to look up how to do it as it was a long time ago for me. I'll probably do it again this week as it makes the house smell so good. One thing though, it won't get crispy in the slow cooker like it does in the oven and if you put too much dough in it it'll push against the lid.