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Help with Whole Spelt Loaf from Local Breads

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Help with Whole Spelt Loaf from Local Breads

I'm attempting to make the Whole Spelt Loaf from Daniel Leader's Local Breads. The recipe uses a 133% hydration starter at 10% inoculation, whole spelt flour, 55% hydration, and 10% honey. I searched the archives and found conflicting opinions on the success of the recipe. The bulk fermentation is listed as 2–2.5 h @ 70–75 °F, but mine's been going for 4.5 h (22–28 °C) and it's not even close to doubling.

I don't maintain a spelt starter, so I converted my 100% rye starter:

  • 20 g 100% rye SD
  • 30 g whole spelt flour
  • 40 g water (37 °C)
  • 12 hours 22 °C
  • 20 g above SD
  • 30 g whole spelt flour
  • 40 g water (37 °C)
  • 16 h 22 °C

 I let that mix go overnight (16 h) and the starter seemed very liquid and had pH ≈ 4. I used for the recipe:

  • 52 g this liquid spelt starter
  • 520 g whole spelt flour
  • 286 g water
  • 52 g honey
  • salt

I know my rye starter is active and I saw doubling of the spelt conversion starters, but I wonder if the the liquid spelt starter is less tolerant of longer hold periods. I can usually hold the rye starter or sponges for ≥16 h with no ill effects.

Any advice on the recipe would be most appreciated. Thanks!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I have the book. It does call for a rye starter in the table of ingredients, and in the text on page 100. But it says "spelt sourdough" in the text on page 101.  That's a confusing discrepency.

So you may be right about spelt starters not lasting very long after peaking.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks for the response. Leader's instructions are a bit confusing there. He seems to offer the option of doing both and I thought it might be interesting to try the spelt starter. I'm sort of sorry I did. I might repeat it with the rye sour.

Because of the long BF, I had to shape, proof briefly, and pop it in the fridge overnight. The bread finally went into the oven after over three more hours at RT. The top crust ended up with the grayish cast that sort of turned brown after storing in a plastic bag. Have you ever seen that happen?

I don't remember if Leader offers a rationale for using the 133% starter over a 100% or stiffer starter. Do you have any thoughts on that?

I don't have the book—I just copied this recipe from a library book. I didn't see enough recipes that I liked to get the book unless it was on sale. Have you made any of the recipes in the book?

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Mwilson is a spelt guy, but I don't remember if he ever baked with 100% whole spelt.

The greyish color makes me think all the sugar was used up in fermentation, but that's just a guess.  I've baked with whole spelt and it ferments very quickly.

I don't remember baking anything specific from this book, just reading it for ideas.

As to a 133% hydration starter, that might be liquid enough so as to not retain CO2, thereby making volume measurements more accurate. The book was written long enough ago, copyright 2007, that maybe he thought most North American home bakers did not have a scale.

Benito's picture
Benito

My understanding of high hydration levains is that they favour lactic acid over acetic acid, thus giving it more of a yogurt tang.  

I’ve baked a bit with 100% spelt and have not seen this grayish crust that you saw.  

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks responding, Benito.

That's also what I understood about high hydration levains. And I thought the bread had little noticeable sour, which was a desired outcome.

The grayish crust was weird because on storage overnight, I noticed that the crust became more brown. But toasting slices again turned the crust gray. The crumb was also dry, so maybe the loaf was overbaked? Could that have contributed to the odd crust color? Or is the dryness because of too low hydration?

I'll have to look through your bakes for a spelt recipe. Do you have a favorite?

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve seen a grayish crust once, but I don’t think it was with spelt.  I attributed it to the rice flour used to dust the banneton that I didn’t remove sufficiently.  I can see that disappearing while the bread is in the bag as it absorbs some of the humidity from the bread.  Then toasting it would dry it out again making it grey.

Spelt is certainly challenging with its poor quality gluten.  Lowering hydration is one way of dealing with that poor gluten, my most successful 100 % spelt bakes were the ones that I added vital wheat gluten to.  This was my most successful 100% spelt hearth loaf.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

how long did it take, how many feedings dit it take for the rye starter to convert to a spelt starter?

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Hi Mini,

Thanks for responding. I did the two feedings as described in the post; 12 h and 16 h. The second gave a liquid-y starter as it had passed peak. Leader only specifies that the starter should be refreshed 12–24 h before use; I used the starter 16 h after feeding. The BF took almost 7 h and the proof 3.5 h (total). I had to shape and proof briefly, store in Kühlschrank overnight, and then continue proof the next day. I probably should have stayed with the rye starter.

Do you have any favorite 100% whole spelt breads made with yeast instead of SD?

Thanks!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and get back to you.  I bought a fluffy 100% spelt loaf two weeks ago but hubby wasn't thrilled.  Poor me, had to enjoy it all by myself.  I haven't baked a pure spelt loaf in a long time, always mixing spelt flour with heavier flours to  Weigh it down.  Try a recipe with a reduced amount of instant yeast and 65% hydration.  Maybe all you needed was a reshape after the refrigerator.  I didn't see a picture. I will also find the recipe before.I stick my foot in my mouth.  :)

The honey makes my ears ring, something about the honey.... try heating it up in some o f the recipe water, quick up to boil and then cool down. 

Found this   https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32540/d-leaders-whole-spelt-loaf-local-breads

Recipe doesn't sound promissing as written. Not enough umpf.  So.... 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

This looks like the Breadtopia whole spelt formula that suave referred to:

https://breadtopia.com/spelt-bread-recipe/

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

the recipe (pp. 100, 101.)  The first of which is the timing under the title; changes: Ferment 6 1/2 hours, Proof 3 hours. 

Under "Prepare the sourdough" "spelt" is crossed out and "rye" written over. (I always have a rye starter.)

Under "Proof the loaf" sentence has been changed to singular... "Let the loaf rise...until expanded...times the original size..." (A minor thing, but to me 500g flour makes one loaf and in this paragraph, suddenly loaf is plural.)

Under Prepare the oven added "lower" to "middle position" (with a cute little arrow. So lower-middle.)

No changes to the recipe. (This is where one can double or tripple the sourdough but I always did like longer wet times on my doughs. I figure the timing was more likely pieced into the copy than changes in the original recipe. Na ya, what do I know?)

On page 278, I made a note at top of page:"Why change feeding to 133%? Measurements don't jive, see previous page."  (Ah!  Maybe to bring starter up to 100% hydration?  Previous page has 81% hydration feeds to 3 day old starter.). Just using  50g 100% hydration starter (rye or spelt) in the next bake will up the yeast/bacteria load from 133% hyd starter.  :)

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks, Mini. It seems our timings are very similar. The actual, instead of published, timings aren't the most convenient, unless the BF is started the night before.

I also found the bread to be dry after baking. Maybe I overbaked it? Or is the hydration too low?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

in my time. Some just a few spots but some over the whole top of the loaf.  Rub a little butter on it.while hot.  I think Docdough (sp) said it is probably caused from too cool an oven that is rapidily heating, like while the oven is preheating.  Heat is pulling oxygen (?) from the crust instead of setting it. Tends to be lightly porous too.

One time it made a spot on my loaf right where there was a gap between the base and cover of my Dutch oven like contraption.  :)

albacore's picture
albacore

Looking at the levain formulation (and starter conversion), the starter to flour ratio is only 1:1.5 and yet it's fermenting for 16 (or 12) hours at 22C. No wonder the levain is not at its best and bulk is taking a long time.

I would have expected something like a 1:10 for 12 hours and that's for normal wheat, not spelt; I have read that spelt ferments faster.

Also I'm surprised the levain pH wasn't lower than 4, but again that may be a feature of spelt.

Lance

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks for the response, Lance.

I also wondered about the feeding ratio. I usually feed my rye starter 1:10:10 and use within 24 h.

It's possible the pH < 4; it was measured by smearing dough on narrow range pH paper. But the "narrow" is relative—it is 0.5 pH units and it can be hard to read with the residual dough contamination on the paper.

Despite working in a chem lab for many years, I always found distinguishing slight variances in colors on pH paper to be challenging for these smaller changes in pH. Lighting, fading of the color, etc., all can contribute to the interpretation of the pH. Meters are always better for accuracy, but the convenience of papers is hard to beat.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

Does anyone else remember Local Breads as having a reputation for being rife with typos and other errors? It might be worth googling to see if Leader or the publisher maintained an errata.  Just a thought.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Two posts at TFL detail some specific typos and inconsistencies, but it will take some reading:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4097/formula-issues-leaders-local-breads

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/28444/dan-leaders-local-breads-typos-and-other-errors-help

A quick skim lead me to believe: 

- Don't trust the percentages. Some of those are off. Go by gram weight. Cross check the printed percentage against what you compute, test for reasonableness.

- Don't trust the volume measurements. Go by gram weight. The creation and testing of the formulas was likely done by weight. The volumes were computed, sometimes incorrectly. Example: dry yeast.

--

I did a quick search at duckduck, and didn't find any errata files for Local Breads.

Another Girl's picture
Another Girl

I have to run out now, but did a quick search and found an errata thread here on TFL. Then I searched the thread for the word spelt and found a couple comments, one of which notes the discrepancy between the rye and spelt starters. It seems Mini made this loaf way back in 2010 and noted that bulk took 6½ hours and final proof took 3 hours: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4097/formula-issues-leaders-local-breads#comment-33591. Not sure if that's helpful, but there might be more on other threads.

EDIT: I just realized that Dave and I are referencing the same thread. Apologies for being redundant. That's what I get for rushing instead of reading, haha. Anyway, while I haven't yet found any corrections to the published formula, it seems reasonable to assume something is amiss with it. 

clevins's picture
clevins

But Maurizio published a 100% spelt pan loaf that might have information that would help: 

https://www.theperfectloaf.com/whole-grain-spelt-pan-loaf/

alcophile's picture
alcophile

Thanks for the response. I took a look at the recipe and I might try it. I am looking for a yeasted whole spelt pan loaf for comparison.

albacore's picture
albacore

It might be worth getting in touch with TFL member HungryShots. I think she's done a lot of spelt baking and may have some suggestions for you.

She also has her own website.

Lance