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Difficulty mixing in starter/salt after autolyse - advice?

kartografer's picture
kartografer

Difficulty mixing in starter/salt after autolyse - advice?

 

I've always done an autolyse (about 40 minutes of flour+water only, no salt or starter) in my sourdough process. I hold back ~50ml of water from the initial mix and add it after the autolyse to make the mixing in of water+starter easier. This is a technique I first learned from theperfectloaf.com, but have also seen it elsewhere.

As I understand, autolyse is meant to give the dough some initial structure. The drawback is that after autolyse, when I go to mix in the starter and salt, it is hard to incorporate them because the dough has already strengthened to the point where it resists mixing. It turns into thick ropes that don't readily absorb the liquid starter and don't combine again easily (imagine a big rubber band ball). After enough time and work, I can get it mixed but not without tearing the dough a lot, which seems to defeat the purpose of the autolyse, which was to build dough structure.

One thing I've thought to try is skipping the extra water after the autolyse. The water may be hurting more than helping because it coats the surface of the dough, preventing it from sticking back to itself, which makes incorporation harder. 

Any other suggestions? Skip the autolyse altogether? A different mixing technique? (Currently trying the "Rubaud" method but not sure if I'm doing it right).

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

I use a modified version of this where I pinch and squeeze.  It does take a bit of time as you mentioned, but seems to incorporate well.

https://youtu.be/HoY7CPw0E1s

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

The first real mix is a step that I did not do enough in the beginning of my baking.  The autolyse does give the dough some initial structure, but the emphasis should be on the word "some" in that phrase.  What I did early on was do a little mixing and then leave the dough to start the bulk fermentation phase.  What I now do is mix until I feel the dough take on the characteristics that tell me that the gluten has developed sufficiently that I can now let the dough enter the bulk fermentation phase.

The Forkish pincer technique is definitely something I do, and I also borrow from Trevor J. Wilson's technique of tugging on the dough.  With some (but not all) doughs I also include some slap-and-folds (aka French folds).  All of these are under the general umbrella of developing gluten.

As an example, suppose I have a dough where salt is being added following the autolyse.  It might be a case where the preferment is also added then (such as some of Forkish's recipes) or perhaps also only some held-back water (such as Tartine or a Hamelman recipe).  The first thing I do is wet my fingers and punch a bunch of holes in the top of the dough, which forces the salt (and preferment and water) down into the dough.  I then expand on the Forkish pincer by squeezing the dough with my entire hand (all fingers, not just the thumb and forefinger) to get the newly added components mixed with the autolysed dough.

My mixing typically is in a 12-quart Cambro tub, and here is where I go between the Forkish and Wilson approaches.  When my squeezing has generally begun the incorporation of all ingredients, I begin moving the dough around in a circle against the wall of the tub.  As I do that, any water gets absorbed by the dough.  If I am going to do French folds, then I turn the tub over and dump the dough onto the countertop to begin that process.  If not, then I begin tugging on the dough (a la Wilson) while continuing to move the dough around the tub in a circular fashion.

Whatever I do, I keep going and pay attention to what the dough is doing.  When the dough exhibits enough elasticity that I really feel the gluten developing, I take the dough temperature, return the dough to the tub if I have been doing French folds, and put the lid on the tub.

Now, as for your question about the water -- which I have not ignored but rather addressed indirectly in my description -- your dough should always absorb any held-back water.  If it does not, then you are adding more than the dough needs.  The water does not keep the dough from sticking to itself.  The water is meant to be present in the dough so that you have the proper hydration for what you are trying to achieve.

For dough that is very high hydration (for example, some of the Tartine recipes), I reduce the initial amount of water by 50 grams and maintain the held-back amount (which I find does help with the absorption of the salt).  As Hamelman notes in his book Bread, the amount of water is always subject to being adjusted for the humidity, ability of the flour to absorb water, and so forth.

Don't skip the autolyse, which is beneficial for beginning the development of gluten.  Don't omit held-back water, which does play a role in the overall state of the final dough.  Adjust the amount of water to suit that day's conditions.  Try different ways of mixing the dough until you find an approach that you like and that gives you good results.

This is perhaps a longer reply than you were after, but I hope that somewhere in it you find some help and that in any event you will continue to ask about whatever remains unclear.  Lastly, if you have not watched any of the videos of Trevor J. Wilson, I encourage you to do so.

Happy baking.

Ted

kartografer's picture
kartografer

Thanks for the reply. To clarify, I know the purpose of the held-back water is not to prevent the dough from sticking to itself. Rather, I was saying that's an annoying effect that I'm experiencing. For example, in that Forkish video that HelHel29er linked to above, the first thing he does is fold over the dough to get the added ingredients enveloped. When I try that, with the held-back water added already, the top of the fold doesn't stick and merge with the bottom part easily, because the surface is wet, almost non-stick. 

Now, given enough time, maybe 5-10 minutes, the water eventually absorbs and I can get everything combined. But in the process I'm tearing the dough rather than smoothly incorporating the ingredients into the existing structure, and I think that may negate any benefit of the autolyse.

For another comparison, in this video from Trevor Wilson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgz0oAhgwyg), at 54 seconds in he kind of swirls around the preferment into the dough and it appears to just immediately mix in and incorporate. My dough won't do that! It has too much structure from the autolyse, and it's like trying to mix a liquid into a solid. I have to completely break down the structure of the solid (the dough) to get the liquid (preferment) incorporated. 

Maybe it's fine because the bread turns out good, but this step of the process just feels wrong. I do think the total amount of water (initial + held-back) is okay; I'm targeting about 80% hydration.

I will try your mixing approach and see if it works any better than what I'm doing. Thanks again.

clevins's picture
clevins

You can add a little water at a time (bassinage) but esp with higher hydration where the flour has absorbed a lot of water I've had this issue.

clevins's picture
clevins

but don't hold back any water. I use the S hook in my Kitchenaid to mix (this one for the Artisan model https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B093T1SL6N/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and it seems to work. My doughs are 70% hydration or higher though

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

The "purpose" of autolyse is to allow the flour to become fully hydrated before you begin to shear (knead) it, which accelerates gluten formation. The specific amount of liquid to add before autolyse will vary depending on multiple factors. Many mixers will not handle soupy dough well so you want to start out at about 60% hydration and then add additional liquid after you have begun to develop the gluten - this late addition of liquid is called bassinage. You might also try combining the flour, starter, and some amount of liquid by hand before you begin mixing (this is my normal process) and then mix at a very low speed for a few minutes just to get the liquid fully disbursed in the flour before you walk away for your autolyse.  The autolyse time depends on the flour, the temperature, and the hydration - 20 min is minimum but after that you get progressively less benefit from additional time - I autolyse for 30 min because I have other things to do that take about that long before I get back to the kitchen.  If you include the starter in the mix before you autolyse just be aware that you will probably want to subtract some time from your bulk fermentation since the yeast is growing from the time you combine it with the rest of the flour.  You can also add the salt to the mix before the autolyse with no detectable negative impact that I have been able to find - and I have looked for it. It will slow down the yeast slightly but it is a second order effect.  But if you are going to include the salt in early consider dissolving it in the water to make it less concentrated when the flour sees it.  If you are mixing by hand it pretty much doesn't make much difference.

Doc

kartografer's picture
kartografer

Posting an update since I tried a different method based on feedback in this thread. I didn't hold back any water, and it was MUCH easier to mix the dough without adding water, because the dough easily stuck to itself when working and folding it in on itself. I think the main takeaway is that if your dough is already high hydration (mine is 80%), adding more water at the mixing stage is probably unnecessary and maybe counterproductive.  

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

A minor point, but for those watching this thread it is worth noting that if you are using a lower protein flour (10-11%) it will not absorb as much liquid as higher protein flours will. So if that is your case, you might hold back a little liquid until you get a sense of how much the flour will take and add more if it seems to be OK.  If you are the experimetal type, try 62%, 66%, and 70% for the initial mix.  You can always bassinage in additional liquid after you have begun gluten development (and at no penalty for higher gluten flours).

kartografer's picture
kartografer

Thanks Doc.Dough. I am using 12.7% protein bread flour. To be clear, I'm using the same amount of total water as before (78 baker's %, 80% total hydration). Before I was autolysing at 74% water and adding the other 4% at the mixing stage. All of the water eventually absorbed, but it made mixing very challenging because the dough was slippery. This time I just started with 78% water for the autolyse and was able to easily mix in the levain/salt.