Flours Used for Starter
So that last few attempts at bread went through some changes. I'll be trying a different recipe, but more on that in another thread later. My question for today is what flours do you use for your starters? I have been giving one of the two loaves each attempt at bread produces to some friends, and I was recently informed that they're trying to not use anything made with AP flour. So today I got some KA White Whole Wheat. I also have some dark rye from Bob's Red Mill, and I thought I'd mix up a batch of both of those. First, is that a good idea for making a new separate starter? My thought is to initially use the starter I have, splitting some off at an upcoming feeding, and feeding some as I usually do with AP flour, and some with the WW/Rye mixture, essentially having two starters, rather than trying to make a whole new starter from scratch, since that didn't work out so well last time I tried that. Second, what ratio of WW to Rye would you suggest? Initial thought was 50/50, but then maybe not. So, what do the pros have to say about this? Thanks
after I wrote the above, and I asked myself if it would be fine to just use the starter I have and use the WW/Rye mix in just making the bread rather than go to the trouble of making two starters.
But I agree you should convert part of your existing starter rather than making a whole new one. I keep a white flour starter and a rye starter. The advantage of 100% rye is that it’s very robust. It’s fine living in the fridge and can stand up to some neglect. Last time I had to go on a long trip, I just got rid of my white starter and recreated one from my rye starter when I got back.
When making a whole grain loaf with a white flour starter/levain, the white flour (all purpose or bread flour) is going to be no more than maybe 10% of the total flour.
For the sake of simplicity, assume 1000 g total flour.
Assume 920 grams of Whole grain flour would go in the final dough.
Assume 160 g of starter/levain, at 100% hydration, providing 80 grams of white flour into the mix.
160 / 920 = 17 % "inoculation", which is in the ballpark for whole grain dough, as whole grain ferments faster. (Personally, I use only 7% inoculation for my home-milled flour.)
Then, 920 / 1000 = 92% whole grain for the finished loaf.
And, 80 / 1000 = 8% white flour.
To me, that's "close enough."
Is making that last 8% into whole grain worth the extra effort to be a "purist"?
That's up to you.
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Another option is to build maybe 20 g of white-flour starter into a levain, by adding 70 g whole grain, plus 70 g water, then ferment/ripen it. Then add the 160 g resultant levain to the final dough. Now you're at 10 / 1000 = 1% white flour and 99% whole grain.
You're essentially "feeding" that starter at a 1 : 3.5 : 3.5 ratio. It "should" work, but there is a possibility that since your starter has been "optimized" or trained through natural selection to feed on white flour, it may delay a bit in ripening.
Adjust that feed ratio to where the fed starter more-or-less peaks when you're ready to mix it in the dough. (More feed means takes longer to peak.) Nothing sacred about 1:3.5:3.5, I just pulled convenient numbers out of the air.
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Me, at about 7% inoculation, I'd add 68 grams of cold starter (containing 34 grams of white flour) to 966 g whole grain flour, for 1000 g total flour, and a 96.6% whole grain ratio. But I'm going for long ferment/proof times, and my home-milled flour ferments/proofs like gang-busters.
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Does that help any?
Starter = Pre-fermented flour and water. Non specific! Where the yeast and bacteria are stored to start off the process for making bread.
Levain = Pre-ferment using a bit of starter feeding it flour and water from the recipe. Specific! Building a larger amount of "starter" geared for the final loaf. Also used for balancing flavour.
One starter is used for many different types of bread.
3 responses - 3 different ways of interpreting your post. :-)
I can see my initial post might not have been clear as to my intentions, so let me clarify.
I want to make a non-AP bread. I already had the rye flour, and today I got some WW. I have read elsewhere that people combine the two flours in both breads and starters, so that is my intent with respect at least to the bread. My initial question about starters was really to ask if I should use a WW/Rye mix starter vs. an AP starter and if this is what folks do. Now I have the ability to continue my current starter in one container, while taking some of that starter and remaking it with the WW/Rye flour mixture and keeping it in another container, feeding both regularly. Also, is that A) a good idea, or B) even necessary to do. Is there an advantage to having multiple starters made up of various types or mixtures of flours, and should one always use an AP starter when making AP bread, a WW/Rye starter when making WW/Rye bread, and so on.
And Idaveindy, I have heard it said about various groups that if you ask nine (arbitrary number here) people a question you can often get ten different answers. :)
Thank you all for your responses. Every little bit helps me learn more.
@Craig,
Short answer: No; you don't necessarily have to use a WW/rye starter to raise a ww/rye bread.
But, sometimes rye recipes call for a "rye sour" which, AFAIK, is just a rye starter. I made one by taking some white flour starter and feeding it rye over two cycles.
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Long answer:
To me, the choice of a starter (I've had 4 different ones: 3 were purchased, one was home grown), and what/when/howmuch to feed it, boils down to:
1. Aroma and taste. Does the bread it makes smell and taste good to me? I did not care for the taste/aroma of Carl's starter, but it leavened like gang-busters.
2. Performance during maintenance cycles.
A. How long between feedings (or stirrings) can I go? My current white flour starter gets stirred every 2 days, fed every 6. My rye starter can go 2 weeks between feedings.
B. How long does it take to refresh or peak? My white starter takes 3 hours until baking peak. **Or**: 2 hours before going back in fridge, so that there is enough food left to last 6 days in fridge.
C. What do I need to feed it? Cheap or expensive flour? White flour is cheap.
D. Will it keep its characteristics/flavor? (Best guarantee of keeping the same strains of beasties is to feed it white flour at 1:1:1 as that brings in the least amount of new strains, or so I am lead to believe. If you feed it whole grain wheat or whole grain rye, you bring in "new" beasties, and at high feed ratios, they may eventually out-compete what was already in there.
Some people say all their starters, no matter who they may buy a specialty starter from, all eventually morph into the same thing. I was able to keep 4 starters (not all at the same time) for years, and they maintained their taste/performance characteristics.
3. Performance in leavening/baking. My DIY starter was weak. My rye starter is good for 100% rye breads. My current white starter has been good on WW breads.
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All 4 starters were fed with white flour. One was occassionalky fed with a little whole wheat pastry flour when it needed a boost.
Personally, I've never had a problem with using a totally white flour starter raising a loaf that was all home-milled WW in the final dough (as per above comment.)
Mine have been going great for years on a white flour diet.
Other bakers need to add some rye once in a while to boost a sluggish starter. Mwilson says it's the minerals that the bran brings.
Other bakers had to switch to all rye to avoid the starter petering out over time.
Net: Experiment and see what works best for you. Sometimes a little WW or Rye in the feed boosts a sluggish starter.
>My initial question about starters was really to ask if I should use a WW/Rye mix starter vs. an AP starter
It's optional either way. But, if your choice doesn't work well, try the other way.
>and if this is what folks do.
Some do.
>Now I have the ability to continue my current starter in one container, while taking some of that starter and remaking it with the WW/Rye flour mixture and keeping it in another container, feeding both regularly.
>Also, is that A) a good idea,
Personal opinion: I see no benefit in it, unless you're curious, or your all AP starter doesn't taste/perform well enough to your liking.
>B) even necessary to do.
Not necessary in all cases. But who knows? Your starter(s) is/are unique to you, so for you, maybe it could be beneficial.
>Is there an advantage to having multiple starters made up of various types or mixtures of flours,
If you bake formulas that call for a "rye sour" then it would be convenient to have a rye starter at the ready. But you can turn a white flour starter into a rye starter in two feedings, in 8 to 24 hours, depending on temp.
>and should one always use an AP starter when making AP bread, a WW/Rye starter when making WW/Rye bread, and so on.
Not universally necessary, but again, depending on how your starters taste and perform, you may prefer to do that, based on experimentation, as needed.
Ah.... the "learning curve". Welcome to the adventure!
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Edited to add: The kind of water you use plays a part too. By experimentation, I learned that my first starter grew better with bottled "spring water" than with "bottled purified water" so I've been using bottled spring water for all starter maintenance and bread baking.
Could using a little WW or whole rye in my starter make up for the lack of minerals in the purified water? Maybe. That would be an interesting experiment.
"Edited to add: The kind of water you use plays a part too. By experimentation, I learned that my first starter grew better with bottled "spring water" than with "bottled purified water" so I've been using bottled spring water for all starter maintenance and bread baking."
I am on a well, not city water with all it's nasty chlorine. As such I keep a Brita pitcher on the kitchen counter to filter my well water, and that's what I use in all my baking/cooking. I'm not really sure what the filter removes as far as nutrients, if any. It would certainly be worth finding out before I start buying spring water in more plastic I'll have to recycle.
I'd suggest an experiment testing between feeding your starter raw well water versus brita-filtered well water. Split what white flour starter you have in two. Keep everything else the same, same temp of water, same amount of starter, same feed ratio (ie 1:1:1), same kind of white flour, identical glasses/jars. See which one rises or peaks faster.
Is there anything less-than-optimal about your present raw well water that you are aware of?
So for my next bread I'll be using the following recipe. It calls for five cups of AP flour, which I will be swapping out for the WW/Rye mixture. So then, what ratio of WW to Rye should I be using? The Rye as previously mentioned is Bob's Red Mill Dark Rye, and the WW is King Arthur White Whole Wheat (honestly I don't know the difference between a white WW and plain old WW except that the final product of one may be lighter or darker in color than the other). I'll be using my standard AP starter. I will post all the details later in another thread but for now please comment here on your WW - Rye ratios. Thank you. I'm hoping to start this dough tonight after I put my starter through its second feeding, and take out enough to feed for the dough.
Uh, you can't really take a 100% white flour recipe and just sub all the flour for whole grain. You need to find a recipe _designed_ for the flours you use.
Sure, subbing 10% or so, and adjusting hydration and rise times usually works.
But whole grains need handled differently, such as pre-soak, less levain/yeast, shorter rise times. Whole grain flour is not an equivalent of white (ap/bread) flour.
I regularly get into "discussions" (heh heh) about whether to "adjust" an existing recipe that was designed for something else, or to go find a recipe that was designed from the ground up for the exact ingredients you use.
It's your time, and your kitchen, so you're the final arbiter. But seriously, do you want to be designing recipes basically from scatch as a bread newbie, or use a recipe that was designed for the exact mix of whole grain flour you want to use?
WW is just a completely different animal from white flour.
One can argue about at which percentage the flour substitution changes things from "adjustment" to a "total re-write." Maybe 10% to 25%. But at 100%, it's definitely a total re-write.
Also, whole rye is a completely different animal from whole wheat. Same argument applies. At over, say, 15% rye being subbed in for WW, you need a recipe that was designed for a larger percentage of rye. Again, the 15% threshhold is arguable. And even at 10% rye or so, you're going to be making a few adjustments to a recipe if it was designed for 100% WW.
It's up to you. Are you a trail-blazer who finds his own path through trial and error, backing up and starting over? Or would you like to learn to hike by following an established trail before going off-trail?
Using an AP flour recipe and just swapping the flour for a mix of Whole-Wheat and Rye is a recipe for disaster.
I agree with t he rest that you don't want to just o a blind substitution of WW for AP, but it's not THAT hard. However, as you're just starting out, what I'd do is add WW to your AP in some relatively small percentage, say 20%. So if you were going to use 600g of AP, use instead 120g of WW and 480g of AP. You'll notice it ferment a bit faster and need a bit more water probably.
I learned a TON from Maurizio Leo's site, The Perfect Loaf which has a lot of good recipes. It's focused entirely on sourdough so you don't find yourself reading a recipe but it's using yeast or a poolish or whatever. But best of all, he uses pictures a lot so you can see what things should look like at various stages.
https://www.theperfectloaf.com/recipes/ is the recipe page on the site. He has videos on Youtube as well, demonstrating some stuff.