The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Today's Bread Extravaganza - 09-20-2022

Craig's picture
Craig

Today's Bread Extravaganza - 09-20-2022

Good morning campers. I thought I'd start a thread following my progress on making some bread today. As I mentioned in a previous post my first attempt, while edible, was not a stellar success as I had overhydrated the dough and it fell quite a lot and didn't crisp up. Today I am being very careful and following the advice given in other threads where I've been asking How To questions. 

So this morning I used my starter from last night's feeding. The recipe I'm following calls for 227g of fed started. Dividing that by three to get equal weights water, flour, and starter I came up with approximately 75g each. But according to one source here that should actually double in size and almost double in weight, so I should actually end up with more than the required 227g. Anyway, that has been ripening now for over two and a half hours and I'm looking at a total of four hours ripening time before use. Meanwhile the rest of this morning's starter has been fed and is itself ripening for later use, and discard from that has been put away in the fridge (pancakes are really yummy, but I have a bunch in the freezer so will probably make crumpets instead of banana nut bread because yes, I have no bananas... you sang that, didn't you).

Here is the starter I'll be using in the bread. I had to get close with my phone, so the top is out of focus, but you can see the bubbles on the side, and a bit on the top, though blurry. Wish me luck. I've got about and hour and a half more ripening of this before I start actually making dough. I should get two boules out of this batch (I really want to get some round bannetons, and they may not be necessary, but we'll see how it goes forming the boules by hand today).

Finally, for context, here is the list of ingredients from the recipe I'm using:

1 cup (227g) ripe (fed) sourdough starter
1 1/2 cups (340g) water, lukewarm
1 to 2 teaspoons instant yeast
2 1/2 teaspoons (15g) salt
5 cups (600g) Unbleached All-Purpose Flour

All comments are welcome. I'll post more to this thread as the project progresses.

 

Craig's picture
Craig

Coming up on four hours of ripening the levain, here are two shots showing the progress of the ripening, one from the side, and one from the top. I've got about six minutes left till I incorporate the starter with the the other ingredients.

Craig's picture
Craig

Ok, so I did not get 227g of levain and had to borrow a few grams from the starter that is ripening. I'm pretty sure this will work. The dough has been mixed and kneaded and is now in the rising bowl for 90 minutes.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"...double in size and almost double in weight..."

Would be magic if true.  Must be a misunderstanding somewhere.   If you take equal weights of starter, water, and flour, it will not gain more weight than what was mixed together.  Volume? Yes. But not weight. In fact, you may loose a little starter stuck to the jar, spoon and possibly evaporation. So calculate 5 to 10g more than needed when mixing up a levain.  

75 x 3 = 225.     Edit.    75g each, round up to 80 each and weigh out what you need when adding.  Good luck! 

Craig's picture
Craig

Thanks Mini. I'll do that next time. I do think adding from my starter will work. The dough has been shaped and is on its final rise before baking. So we'll see. ;)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

than needed if the levain contains the same flour as my mother starter.  That way whatever is left over in the jar gets a good feeding (aprox. 1 part starter to 4 parts water and enough flour to make a thick paste.  Wait for signs of life - about a third risen, then into the fridge.  

Craig's picture
Craig

"That way whatever is left over in the jar gets a good feeding (aprox. 1 part starter to 4 parts water and enough flour to make a thick paste."

Are you saying you add that much to the remainder of your levain? Not a 1-1-1 ratio?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You eventually find out what works best for your starter under your kitchen conditions.  Mine is a rye starter and it beefs up the yeast to use a greater ratio of food.  I only use a 1:1:1 when first starting a starter.  The yeast and bacteria go thru the food too fast at a low ratio.  Temperature makes the biggest difference.  Maybe now with 65°F room temp (19°C) the starter will ferment slower so I have to make sure it peaks (before using) and falls before feeding.  If it takes too long, I might reduce my feed ratio.  If I find a loaf rising too slowly in winter temps, it can happen I bump up the starter amount in my next dough recipe.  

 In summer, just the opposite reducing the starter to dough ratio.  Gotta stay flexible especially in fall and spring when room temps can change rapidly. You will soon become aware and sensitive to your surrounding temperatures if you rely on room temps to ferment starters and breads. Cool nights and days require lower feed ratios than warmer nights and days.  Not uncommon to feed before the warmest part of the day and skip or reduce an evening feeding  "sliding" during the nght.  Watch the beasties, not the clock.  Although noting the clock time can become useful. Just be sure to date your notes and note season and location and temperature.

Craig's picture
Craig

Ok, the boules are out of the oven. They didn't get as brown as I expected them to be. I haven't cut into them yet to see what the crumb is like. Waiting for them to cool a bit. So here's what I think happened, and please correct me if I'm wrong. 

The recipe calls for an oven temp of 425 F/218 C. I checked before that time was up and decided to up the temp to 450 F/232 C for the last five minutes. This is what I ended up with. I have heard of bakers using 500 F and I'm wondering if I should have done that.

Also, the recipe calls for the bread to be sprayed with water then "generously" covered with flour before putting in the oven. I do now have a round banneton and I didn't want to use my long ones for this, but what I've heard is you cover the inside of the banneton in flour to keep the dough sticking, and in the videos I've seen there was no extra flour put onto the loaves prior to baking. 

So my question is, should the temp be much higher than 425, and should I omit the flour on top. I may have added too much flour, and it seems to me that it might have acted as a barrier to prevent browning. I'll report back later when I cut into one to show the crumb and comment on taste.

clevins's picture
clevins

to 475 to start. Make sure you steam somehow for the first 20 minutes or so of the bake. 

Craig's picture
Craig

Thanks. I'm going to try that next time around. It's going to be several days as I'm still working on the loaf from the previous attempt. So I'm up to my ears in bread at the moment. :)

And I did put a pan on the lower rack with water in it to steam, but I left it in there the whole 30 minutes, which is what the recipe listed for total baking time.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Or moving of he pans around halfway through the bake for more even baking, is the time to remove the steam pan from the oven. Opening the door releases a lot of steam when rotating the loaves.  So get out of the way when opening the door. That extra moisture in the oven can delay browning. Even if steam pan is empty, it can affect browning of the bottom crust if directly under the loaf.  Just take a look at steamed buns.  

I tend to do 98% of my wheat bakes between 200°C - 220°C  it works just fine as long as the steam is cut off or released.  A cup of boiling water is usually gone in 15 minutes.  Too long steaming will make a tough thick crust.

How's the browning on the bottom of the loaf?

Craig's picture
Craig

And here is the bread on the inside. The crumb is much tighter than I'd expected it to be, but it is springy and has a good flavor. But I am looking for much more browning and crispiness on the crust. Back to watching videos and reading your helpful comments. 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Craig, first, good idea on a separate thread with a new title.  Second, yes, in general, if you want a browner crust, you either need a higher temp with a shorter bake time,  or your dough has insufficient proteins and sugars to get good browning   King Arthur What causes browning  Note that adding sugar is generally not the answer, it deals more with how the sourdough starter reacts with the flour and water, and the degree of fermentation. 

Craig's picture
Craig

Thanks, Barry. I wonder if blooming the yeast in the lukewarm water with a teaspoon of sugar would help. But I think a higher temp/shorter bake time might work better. Just going to have to play with it. 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Craig,  I reread the part where the recipe said to spray the loaf with water, then add flour, then bake.  I have never heard of such a procedure, next time, I suggest you omit those steps.  As others suggest, it is helpful to have steam for a part of the bake, and remove the steam for the second part -.  I don't know of any firm rules, but some suggest 1/3 time steam and 2/3 no steam as a starting point,  decreasing the steam  ( or covered if in a DO ) time to increase the browing.

clevins's picture
clevins

First, that's a lot of starter as a percentage (about 25%). Nothing wrong with that but it will mean things progress more quickly. 

Second, don't worry about gram precision. If you'd added 220g of starter, it would be fine. Now... I don't mean to ignore weights totally, but don't overfocus on them to the point where if you're a few grams off, it throws you. 

Third, I agree that the flour etc on top is something to drop. 

Fourth, Temp - Above I said to start at 475, but forgot to day you can drop that after you release the steam. But also, grab an instant thermometer and take the bread's internal temp. You want it around 205F/95C. 

Finally, as you get things down and if you continue to want boules, you might want something like this from Breadtopia https://breadtopia.com/store/round-cloche/. You preheat it in the oven, plop the dough in and score, then cover it for the time you want steam. Since it's enclosed, the dough provides its own steam and you simply remove the cover when you want to stop the steam. I have the oblong version and like it a lot. This is the same thing as using a Dutch oven but the sides are not tall which means less risk of burning yourself. 

Craig's picture
Craig

You all have been so helpful, thank you.

So, next batch I plan to up the baking temp from 425 to 475, or maybe 500 F. I might even use my Dutch oven which will not require a separate pan of water in the oven. That having been said, the previous baking times have been 30 minutes, or a bit more to try and achieve the browning that never really happened. So if I go for 475, what should I reduce that baking time to. This will be important to know if I use the Dutch oven with the lid on to steam the bread, but I'll be removing the lid after a third of that time has elapsed and will need to know what total time to divide by three. 

 

clevins's picture
clevins

Both for outside temp and, if you have an instant read thermometer, interior temp. It won't be done, but it will let you judge where it's going.