The Fresh Loaf

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Bread baking in gas oven without dutch oven

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Bread baking in gas oven without dutch oven

I am moving to a new flat tomorrow. It has a gas oven. I've never used one! I am worried about baking bread in it, particularly the steaming setup, since I've read many posts about how venting in gas ovens doesn't allow one to steam it. And I don't have a dutch oven or any similar vessel (but might give up and buy something, if I have to).

The oven is quite old, but I am told by the previous tenant it's really good (the best they'd ever had!), also for baking - but nothing is known about bread of course.

Is it worth it at first to just try my usual setup (preheated baking steel, steaming with water in a tray), or it's basically guaranteed to fail? Is it possible since "all ovens are different" this one just happens to be OK for steaming?

What are the simplest things to try if the naive approach doesn't work well? How about switching off the oven during the steaming, would it prevent the venting that removes the steam?

Rempejek's picture
Rempejek

I'm baking in a very old & small gas oven and it took me a while to figure out how to get a decent loaf out of it. Esp browning of the top was a problem.

I had no luck with cast iron pots. Good result with quarry tiles in the middle position. Spray water just after loading the bread, then again after about 10 minutes. I reduced hydration to 65% and that seems to be the sweet point for my oven.

But I'll keep experimenting. I bake sourdough bread by the way. I suppose it will be different if it's yeast

Hope that helps somewhat

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

That does help, thank you! I assume my baking steel will function similarly to your tiles, so that's promising. I also bake with sourdough, glad there is hope it might work without some big investments!

Our Crumb's picture
Our Crumb

Interesting challenge. If your usual process results in an evidently steam-deprived product (e.g. poorer than expected spring), then turning off during steam makes sense, IF the fan actually goes off when you turn the dial to “Off”. Ours used to continue to blow for several minutes.  If it does go off quickly enough, then I’d consider sourcing a short stack of porcelain or stone tiles to retain and radiate heat under your stone during “Off” period.  The more heat-retentive thermal mass you can cram in, the better, depending on how well insulated the unit is of course. 
Good luck and keep us posted.

Tom

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep this in mind, and will post back with any results!

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

I had good results with a graniteware roasting pan on a stone when I used a gas oven. I did a blog about it last summer. 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/68698/tales-other-dark-side

Hope this helps

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Ilya,  nothing to lose  ( except a loaf ) by trying your normal method, though in the US, most gas ovens are so thoroughly vented that any steam you introduce will dissapate quickly.    

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks both, indeed I'll probably at first just try and do nothing unusual and see how it goes. Then I can start playing with different variables...

Large roaster would be great, and has the advantage of working for baguettes and other unusual shapes. Thanks for the idea!

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I just started baking again after many years and I have been baking in a non-convection gas oven. I'm sure it vents to the atmosphere pretty well. I use a pan of boiling water in the oven and I occasionally seem to get reasonable oven spring, but I am not as an accomplished baker as many here on TFL, so I can't tell if my lack of OS is due to lack of steam or skill.

One technique I have used is to invert a metal bowl over the dough and spray water on the dough or bowl just before covering.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Inverted bowl should work! I don't have a big one like that, but that would be the smallest investment that could make a difference I think.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

All my baguettes were baked under my large granite roaster lid set upon a preheated steel

. My Blue Star Gas oven has a fan but it can be turned off if desired at any time. It assists with browning so I never turn it off manually while baking. It cycles on and off as a safety feature since the heating element cycles on and off also and both can’t be on at the same time. You can use anything oven proof over your loaf set directly on the preheated steel. No reason to add pans of water or more thermal mass. 

For the baguettes, two at a time, I covered at 475 for 13 min and uncovered for 7-10 min. Perfect every time. When doing boules and batards I never use a stone of any kind. I simply preheat my graniteware roaster top/ bottom both for 15 min and remove from oven insert bread cover and return. Due to the light weight of the graniteware one doesn’t need or desire thermal mass as the metal heats easily maintains easily and when temp is lowered for the rest of the bake after initial 20 min or so covered it cools easily which is what one wants. Hope this helps . Good luck with the move!!! c

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you, that sounds like a good option! I'll see how it works with just the usual method with oven steaming, who knows, seems like for some people it works.

squattercity's picture
squattercity

Big congrats on the move, Ilya!

Welcome to idiosyncrasy, that's all I can say.

For sure, your gas oven will never be as efficient with steam as an electric oven. Turning it off after preheating so as to cut back on air flow and retain steam is a good thought. I've never tried and it might help. But, of course, you lose that initial burst of high heat, which some bakers swear by.

But ... you'll also thrill to the the wonder of cold and hot spots. In my oven, the back left is way cooler than the front right ... while the back right and front left are somewhere in between.

And another great thing: though they don't steam well, gas heat is a bit more humid than the heat from an electric element -- so getting crusts to turn out the way you expect may take some improvisation.

Also, because they vent so well, gas ovens heat your kitchen quite efficiently and, sometimes, overpoweringly. Be prepared to sweat.

All-in-all, you're going to have fun (and, inevitably, frustration) figuring out what works in your new oven. Enjoy the journey!

Rob

PS -- Is your new place still in Basel? I'm going to be in Switzerland again in late August -- so maybe we can commiserate about bread (and ovens) in person once again.

PPS -- I was cynical about dutch ovens -- but when my neighbor threw one out, I snagged it and it has been interesting to play with. So maybe check a local 'brockenhaus' and see if they have one for cheap.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks for all the info Rob!

For the initial heat, I hope the preheated steel should suffice, if I try switching off the oven. That is now gaining popularity even with electric ovens btw, with seemingly good or even great results, since the top element can hinder oven spring.

Cold and hot spots can happen in an electric oven too (when I was in Edinburgh it was very obvious with convection on - back left was way hotter than back right, even in a short time the browning differed a lot). I'll see how this one behaves, hot spots are annoying!

Wow never heard about the humid heat in gas ovens. I wonder if it's simply because burning gas produces water together with CO2? Very curious.

I've literally never used a gas oven in my life, I thought they didn't exist in Europe any more, but the new flat is a bit old fashioned, so there you go.

PS 

Yes still in Basel! Just across the river from the old one. Let me know when you are here, would be great to meet up when you are here!

PPS

Excellent idea! There aren't as many Brockis around here as I was used to in Edinburgh (I think UK is exceptional in general in density of charity shops), but always cool to explore the old things. I like that a dutch oven is very versatile on the kitchen and useful for everyday cooking too, not just baking, but quality ones are rather expensive.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I had a gas oven many years ago that was fueled by a LPG bottle.  I baked on the baking sheet on a shelf positioned so that the top of the finished loaf (I had to imagine it) was in the horizontal center of the oven.  No steam. I shaped the loaf and with about a teaspoon of olive oil on the palms of my hands, dabbled the oil on the surface of the loaf. Sifted flour onto the surface of the cold tray.  

Proofed it on the tray (scored it if desired) and then misted the loaf.  Baked in a hot oven aprox 200° C or slightly more until the loaf looked done and the flour on the tray was toasted but not burnt.   That is my starting position with gas ovens.  After the bake (sometimes half way thru while rotating the loaf) rack/tray could be moved up or down depending on the bottom crust.  Temp up or down as well. 

When it came out of the oven, the bread went onto a cooling or shelf rack over the dry sink and covered with a flat cotton dish towel until cooled. A large bowl will also work. This softens the crust nicely.  Just enough to make slicing easy.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

That's really interesting Mini, oil instead of steaming? How do the results compare? Such an unusual method!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Try it and see what happens. Oil helps hold in moisture and brown the top crust, scores will still expand as the cuts are fresh and misted.  Let us know.  

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

It makes sense, but I've never heard of oiling bread before baking (except focaccia). Cool idea, thank you!

Rempejek's picture
Rempejek

This is just what came out of my oven.

I think the oven spring is pretty decent

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

First report on the gas oven.

I wanted to start easy, with focaccia genovese, which doesn't require steaming, but being a bit flat bread would reveal hot/cold spots.

I preheated the over with the steel in the bottom third, just like I always did in an electric over, and placed the tray with the focaccia just above the steel.

The problem was that the top of the focaccia just wouldn't brown, even after it was probably all cooked through. The recipe says to bake for around 12 minutes at 230, and I couldn't really trust the temperature on the knob, so kept a little longer, but that didn't do anything. Since the oven doesn't have any top element, I reasoned that it's really hard to brown by just air... So moved the tray below the steel, hoping to get some radiant heat, and that seemed to help! But then of course by the time the top got a little colour, the focaccia dried out so much that it was basically a biscuit! Delicious, but crunchy instead of crispy outside and soft inside.

Does this logic make sense? I do have a feeling that the loaves I've seen around from gas ovens looks much more pale...

So, does that mean that to get colour on the loaves I'll have to e.g. bake on the steel, and then when steaming is done, move them below the steel? Or do I need another steel/stone, to have one on the bottom and one on top?

Rempejek's picture
Rempejek

I had a similar problem with focaccia. Unfortunately not yet solved.

I think that your idea of 2 steels is a good one. I can't copy it as my oven is too small.

Or maybe to bake in something that can be turned upside down? Bake open, once top is set, put on lid and bake upside down?

With bread, I found reduced hydration worked. Maybe this could work with focaccia as well?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Upside down is also interesting, but won't help with other shapes... And even other focaccias, that have toppings, won't really work.

For loaves maybe a real dutch oven would help, especially if after steaming I would keep the lid on and just a little ajar to let steam escape. Then the same radiating heat would help.

But that still won't work for e.g. baguettes, or pizza!

This recipe is already pretty low hydration and even has some malt extract and of course plenty of olive oil that should help browning (this recipe: https://www.giallozafferano.com/recipes/focaccia-fugassa-alla-genovese-genoa-style-focaccia.html).

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and check and compare the oven.  Sometimes extra baking sheets are sitting on the bottom of the oven from transporting and should be taken out befor baking.  There may be a light sheet or covering to disperse or defuse heat away from directly heating the middle of the oven above the flames.  Have you baked without the steel shelf?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

The flames are covered by metal and aren't visible at all (beyond a tiny opening for igniting the flames). And pretty sure there aren't any extra sheets somewhere, the oven was not transported recently. But I will try to look up the manual, that's a good idea.

No, haven't tried without the steel... Do you think it can hinder something?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for several years without any extra baking steels or tiles. Just used the rack/shelves that came with the oven. 

The broiler for a gas oven is in the drawer under the baking compartment if there is one. For focaccia you might be able to slip it into the broiler to brown top when baking is finished.  Any baking tips in the manual?

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

OK, I'll try to see about that, thanks!

For now maybe the next bake will be a pan/sandwich loaf, so the steaming is less critical. Will see how to best bake it.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Oh I did manage to open the compartment below thinking maybe there would be some trays or some extra regulators, but didn't think to check whether there is a broiler/grill on top of it! That would be very useful, thanks!

Will try to find the manual online when I am at home and check the exact model. I didn't see a paper manual lying around.

squattercity's picture
squattercity

mb take a photo of the front layout, Ilya, so we all can see what the the fuss is about. Gas ovens in the US are often as Mini describes - a big roasting/baking chamber above the heat source and a broiling chamber below that is maybe 1/3 the size. But not all of them are configured this way.

I don't have any advice to offer about pan loaves. All I can say is, as a gas oven user, I've become a latter-day convert to baking in a dutch oven -- because I've been getting much much much better oven spring. One issue remains, though: I still have to figure out the right way to adapt my bakes to get crispier crusts.

Rob

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thanks for the advice Rob! I checked and there is unfortunately no broiling chamber, it's just some technical compartment for the gas supply below the oven...

This is all there is to the oven. The tiny hole in front of the oven floor is for ignition. Not shown is the knob that controls temperature (it is actually marked in degrees C, but I doubt it's trustworthy).

As you might or might not be able to discern, the model is Electrolux GHL245WE. I have found the manual online and it doesn't seem to have any useful information for bread baking...

squattercity's picture
squattercity

I shouldn't say this bc I haven't done it, but your next cheap purchase should probably be an oven thermometer. 

It looks like a good oven -- much nicer and newer than mine (not hard: mine is from the 1950s). It also seems that the baking compartment is much more sealed than mine -- so a good steaming set-up might work well.

R

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Haha. Yes, a thermometer would be useful!

Yeah it's not terribly old for sure, but I am not very hopeful for steaming - there is a clear big vent in the back behind the hobs, and there is hot air coming from it when the oven is on. But considering how the flames are hidden below the oven floor, is it possible that actually the hot air goes around the main chamber in the walls? And so there is not so much venting from the oven itself?

squattercity's picture
squattercity

exactly. The flame itself needs air flow -- the box perhaps not so much. I'm eagerly awaiting your bakes.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I have dough final proofing now in a pan (peanut butter bread! let's see). I think I'll try steaming and putting the steal on top of the oven for top heat. Need another oven rack...

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Just removed the steaming tray. The difference with my previous electric ovens is obvious - used to get a huge wave of steam come out when I open the oven. Nothing visible now! The loaf was well proofed, so I didn't expect much oven spring anyway, and I didn't get much. I think it's starting to brown now on top.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Well, browning is indeed hard, even with the steel on top. Got some OK colour in the end, but nothing to write home about, and it took its time even to reach this. Bottom is much darker, even though the pan was not standing on the steel as I used to do.

squattercity's picture
squattercity

looks great to me, Ilya. The proof will be in the eating.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Well, it baked up fine! A little too sour for my taste (high % levain fermented for too long), but nothing wrong with the bake. It has around 20% peanut butter, ant it comes through, definitely in the smell, and somewhat in the taste too. Interesting experiment.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Finally tried to bake a free-standing loaf. I had the steel positioned at the top of the oven hoping it would help with browning. Baked on a regular tray, and steamed by pouring some hot water in a preheated pan on the bottom of the oven (bread was placed on the left side of the tray and the pan was on the right side - hoping not to reduce the temperature of the tray underneath the loaf too much). Had small oven spring and a lot of spreading, and the saddest crust I've ever seen with literally no colour, after a very long time in the oven...

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Ilya,  I would be okay with the spring, agree on the color -  next time you may want to bake at a higher temp.  Also, how long did you preheat?  With my gas oven  ( which i don't use for baking bread ) the front glass steams up with moisture as it is preheating , but eventually that burns off as it gets up to temperature. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I think the picture is a bit deceiving, the bread is rather flat and the scores opened up because it spread out, not because of oven spring... With these things you never know whether it's the oven or fermentation, of course.

I baked at 230C in the beginning, lowered to 210C later. If the oven knob is to be trusted...

I didn't preheat too long, I thought that gas ovens didn't need a long preheat... I'll keep an eye out for the moisture next time, thanks!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

dark pans?  Have you tried reflective pans on the bottom rack yet?  If you only have a dark pan, wrap a single layer of alufoil on the outside or place a piece of foil on the rack. Sit the loaf pan on the foil.

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

The tray I have is dark. Is this to prevent burning the bottom? It didn't burn, but got nice and dark (unlike the top). Considering the sad crust on top, the bottom is very nice :)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Steam pan on the top shelf and the dark baking tray on the bottom shelf, perhaps moving the baking tray up a notch when rotating the loaf?

Do you have a pre-heating indicating light? 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

I can try that, sure! Why do you think this would make it better?

No, there is no preheating indicator...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

dropping the hydration to see if that corresponds better to the proofing times?  This crazy weather is playing havoc with my timing so I have to err more on the side of underproofing than perfect proofing.  

Bummer about no indicator light.  Also, oven preheats more evenly when baking trays are not in the oven. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

This is the first loaf that I baked in 2 weeks due to life, so I have no comparison re hydration... But if you mean the heat, it's not so hot here anymore, actually!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 and will be gradually cooling more each day.  I think you get the weather a day before I do. This will be the year everyone takes to wearing long underwear as they lower their house & office thermostats. (Gas shortage.)  I watched panorama TV cameras early this morning (before regular programming) and think the street lights stay on much too long. Big energy waste at night and during daylight. 

I've taken to using my kitchen machine to knead my dough. The dough hook spins rather fast and so doesn't take much action to get nice gluten development.  The first loaf came out incredibly soft considering the amount of rye altus I incorporated into a w700/spelt loaf.  I might call it "wonder rye."  I can fold a cross section in half and not break the bread in two!  

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Yes, the dominant wind direction in Europe is west to east, so that sounds very likely!

There are so many wasteful energy uses everywhere, bright shop signs on all night also come to mind... I think in Germany they are now limiting that?

That sounds like an interesting bake, will you post it here?

Yesterday for this bake I used 1/3 rye (including 1/3 of that from the starter), and the rest was Zopfmehl - white flour with a small amount of spelt, sold everywhere here in Switzerland. They like their Butterzopf on Sundays :) the gluten developed so easily, I mixed it and left for around 15 min, and it already felt so strong! Cut off a slice this morning, despite the flatish profile and crust, or almost lack thereof, the crumb is very nice and soft, flavourful.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

https://mimibakesphotos.com/post/tips-for-baking-with-a-gas-oven/

This link goes to experience with a gas oven.  Although she's writing about cookies, Cooling the dough before baking might help as a gas oven cooks slower.  You need to add more baking time to electric oven recipes.

Oh, and that may mean pre-heating longer too!

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Nice info, thank you!

squattercity's picture
squattercity

you have my condolences, Ilya. As someone who has gas at home and only experiences electric ovens when I visit family, I cannot imagine making the opposite transition.

I would suggest that the most important thing for you right now is to get an oven thermometer. My guess is that your oven heat is less than what the knob says.

That being said, I've cooked many breads that came out looking like yours. Oven spring got better with a dutch oven, but they still don't produce the crusts electric ovens do, even with the lid off.

In a week, when I get home, I will be experimenting more. Let's compare notes.

Rob

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Rob! I'll order a thermometer before jumping the gun and ordering an Anova haha. And will keep an eye out for a second hand dutch oven... Or some kind of big vessel to cover the bread.

alcophile's picture
alcophile

I have little to no experience with an electric oven, so I have no empirical evidence to compare. But why would a gas oven take longer to bake things? If the oven is properly calibrated for temperature, I would expect baking times would be similar. Also, most references I've seen say that pre-heating is faster with a gas oven.

It is true that a gas oven will have some moisture present as a combustion by-product and could delay browning, but if it is properly vented, I would expect humidity to be quite low. I actually have more problems with breads becoming too dark before they are fully baked.

Are these differences between gas and electric a function of gas burner output? I have a 76-cm freestanding gas range and the oven has a 16,000 BTU (I don't know what unit is used in Europe) output. The actual temperature is very close to the setpoint. The only issue I have had is that at very high settings (>270 °C) for long periods it sometimes gives an over-temperature error,

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

too much before the middle is baked through, the oven temp is too high? Turning down the temp (perhaps after initial spring) would mean a longer bake.

Preheating?  How much radient heat should come off the sides of the oven or the dutch oven? Wonder where a study can be found on the various subjects.

I do know a gas range is faster to heat up a frying pan when compared to coil electric but my induction range is even faster than gas. I was also surprise to read in many locations that a gas oven is slower to bake. Could it be maybe because of flame exposure? A different type of heat?  Or would that be nonsense? Could flame (mis) adjustment be involved?  

What are the baking instructions for gas ovens?  Something like turning the flame down after the preheat? Is it automatic in all gas ovens or newer ones?  Time to go digging for exact wording....

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Baked a beautiful loaf yesterday! Almost as beautiful as in an electric oven.

Made a seeded dough using Ruchmehl, and to improve browning added some malt extract and diastatic malt powder. Then for baking I just followed my usual electric oven procedure (preheated baking steel, steaming by pouring boiling water in a hot baking tray below), but tried switching off the oven and covering the vents after loading the loaf and steaming. So changed a lot of variables, not sure what was the key.

The bread did spread out more than I am used to, but had good oven spring. And most importantly it browned quite nicely! It's clearly not shiny like one can get in an electric oven, no blisters, so steaming is probably suboptimal still... But I'm very happy with it!

And it's delicious, of course, the crumb is great too.



squattercity's picture
squattercity

bravo!!!!

Rob

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Thank you Rob! I haven't got an oven thermometer yet, but I used the highest setting (230C) for this bake all the way through, and I think it probably helped.

squattercity's picture
squattercity

Turning it up all the way was a great thought, Ilya.

Q: How long did you leave the oven off for steaming and how did you plug the vents?

Thanks.

Rob

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Around 10-15 min steaming, didn't time carefully. Until I saw big oven spring.

The vent in this oven is a long one in the back, so I just laid a folded kitchen towel on top of it, and placed a metal tray vertically on the towel to keep it in place.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

turning the oven off while the vent is covered.  I've never covered a vent, don't approve of it.  We don't want folks blowing up their ovens. If gas stays on and pilot light goes out, gas can build up in many ovens.  Expert advice needed!  Ovens do vary and newer ones may have safety things built in when gas is turned off but please, please be careful. Trapped steam is unpredictable, it can put out the pilot light or go into the electronic controls.

There are some posts in TFL archives. Warnings about covering vents to gas ovens. 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/12021#comment-12021

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Totally Mini, thanks for spelling it out. I did mention that I switched off the oven before covering the vents, exactly because otherwise the flame might go out while the gas supply might continue.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven