The Fresh Loaf

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Sourdough starter always has hooch

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

Sourdough starter always has hooch

I'm on my 4th day of feeding my sourdough but there is always what I think is hooch on it. Right now it's really warm in my home, around 30C (86F), I've been keeping this tucked away in a cupboard so it says cooler than just leaving it out. Currently I've been leaving around 70g of starter and putting around 70g of whole wheat flour and 50g of ap flour with 120g of room temperature water. I'll feed it roughly every 24 hours. There's some activity (small bubbles in the starter) it also sometimes bubbles when I open the lid to feed it (I haven't kept the lid on very tight). There's also a sour-ish smell. I'm just worried that it isn't getting enough food because of the hooch. I'm worried that if I feed it twice a day with the same feeding I would overfeed my starter. What should I do?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Welcome to the web site.  This is a great resource for home bread bakers. I've been here almost 3 years.   And the many topics go back many many years.  There's a wealth of knowledge to mine. 

And... you're  in luck. This topic was discussed just  recently: 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70868/help-hooch-over-night-new-starter

Quick answer: it's not hooch.   After reading that one (it's about more than hooch) if you feel you need still more great "starting-a-starter" advice on how to read and feed your baby starter, please also peruse this post: 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/70812/day-3-starter-best-way-proceed

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I read the first link you provided, if the reason for this liquid is that I've been adding too much water, is there a guide to how much water to use if I'm using a whole wheat and ap flour mixture, or should I just experiment with lowering the water? When do I know I've added to little water? One last question, when do I know my starter is ready for 2 feedings a day?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 keep doing what you're doing but put a bowl under the jar to catch any overflow. The water is cloudy and it looks like the yeast numbers are increasing making or stirring the separated water.  You might want to just remove a little bit at the next feeding and thickening it up with flour into a paste.  Get your bread recipe handy just in case.  :)

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I removed about 10g of water this feeding and not only has the water gone, my starter has risen!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

at least in these early stages.  As the fermenting times shorten, the time it takes to rise and peak after feeding, the gluten will be strong enought to support rising.  For right now, a little less water is a good idea.

With the rising getting higher and peaking sooner, you may want to increase the amount of flour. Change feeding gears so to speak to support the growing number of yeast cells and colonies.  How long does it take to rise and start to fall back after discarding and feeding?

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I'm not sure of the time it takes to rise/fall but I'd say it rises maybe 4-6 hours after feeding and it'll fall a few hours later. It doesn't rise very much, a few centimetres. There are a lot of bubbles and it has a very strong sour smell. I'm feeding twice a day with 50g of whole wheat and 50g of ap with 100g of water. It is the 7th day. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:). So you are discarding about 150g with each feeding?   

Try using the discard when it peaks or just after when it starts to fall.  I test starters with a 1-2-3 sourdough recipe. You can easily look up post on the site here or do some simple math.  Or make your standby recipe.  

1-2-3.    Starter-water-flour.  Bubbly falling Starter 100g, water about 200g and 300g flour.   With a 100% starter, half the starter is flour so add that to the dough flour and get 350 total flour in the recipe.  Salt is 2% of the flour or 7g almost 1 1/3 teaspoons of heavy table salt.  You can add a pat of butter and a teaspoon of sugar if you like but it makes a small tester loaf a little over 600g dough at 70% hydration. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

Hi, it's day 9 now and I've been following the guide clevins gave. After day 7, I have began leaving about 20g of starter with 30g of whole wheat and 70g of ap with 100g of water every 12 hours. My starter seems the same as before maybe even a little less active in terms of bubbles. Now there is an acetone smell as well as a slight wheaty smell. What should I do?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when it peaks it is still domed, let it just start to flatten and dull a bit on the surface, then stir and remove some to feed it. Save the discard into the fridge.  Record how long it takes from feed to peak.  

The times can be a bit wonky (not sticking to any regular schedule) when increasing the flour (or decreasing the starter amount.  Temperatures play a big role.  Let the starter tell you when to feed it.  A starter can rise and fall several times after feeding but try to catch it after the first rise to feed.

I smell and taste the starter before feeding it. It should have a sour taste and be somewhat thinner than just after feeding. Then spit it out. :)  If it is not tasting sour and smelling yeasty, wait a little longer before feeding.  You are on a 1 to 5 feeding ratio, 20g starter to 100g flour with a young starter.  

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I’ve just fed my starter, it smells I’ve dough right now.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"just in case."   Sometimes chilling it helps and if the starter happens to have been overfed, it can chomp on flour for a while.   Are you sure it's smelling like acetone? Like nail polish remover?

does the starter smell like dough before or after feeding it?

Because of your high temperatures (where are you by the way on this beautiful planet) I would suggest moving your starter into the fridge during the hot part of the day. This will slow down the bacterial growth somewhat. You might also try less water in the starter.  Make a more dough like paste.  This shows trapped gas bubbles better on the side of the starter jar.  In a warm climate with 100% hydration starter, the fermentation will speed up and require more feedings and watching.  

I reduce the hydration when it is above 28°C.   Flour is food, water is transport.   

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

It smelt very sour before and now I’m pretty sure it smells like acetone.

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I measured the time after feeding and it took about 6 hours to reach is peak and it would rise about 1/3 of it's volume just after being fed. The temperature has also started to lower in the UK, where I keep it is probably around 26 degrees at the highest.

Edit: The acetone smell has gotten weaker and there is a more wheaty/grainy smell. I’ve also attached a picture of what the top of my starter looked like after it started to fall, are the bubbles a good thing?

 

clevins's picture
clevins

it's a bit thin which will limit the actual rise (rise is gas being trapped in the starter and a thin starter tends to let the gas escape. 

Feed regularly and maybe reduce hydration a bit.

 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I’m currently doing 100% hydration with 30g whole wheat and 70g bread, what should I go down to?

clevins's picture
clevins

You can move down a bit to 80% if you want to see it rise physically more, but that's the only reason. The main thing to care about is if your starter is very active and it sounds like it is.

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I've just fed my starter and I put 80g of water to 100g of flour in and the starter is almost doughy now. Also, do you have an estimate as to how long until my starter will be ready?

clevins's picture
clevins

Maybe a little earlier... assuming temp etc is OK. 100% is fine too, it's just that you won't see it rise as high by volume if the gas escapes, but that doesn't mean it's not healthy. 

 

The issue is that so many guides say things like "your starter should double in X hours" and a thinner starter won't rise as high, but will still be just fine. What you're looking for is a starter that reliably rises and falls and it sounds like yours does.

 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

The recipe I'm thinking of using calls for a stiff starter, should I make mine a stiff starter now? Also if mine does rise/fall reliably am I ready to make bread?

clevins's picture
clevins

If your recipe calls for starter it should give a hydration. If not, I'd just use your 80% starter. Just be sure to save some starter so you can feed that and keep it going. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I'm following this course https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msqU-ylXWUs&ab_channel=TheBreadCode as I don't have a dutch oven and will try using the boiling water in a tray method. It calls for 40-80g of starter (10-20%). When you say take it out, should I just put it onto the counter and should I flour the counter if so?

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I have a fan (convection?) oven, the guide says to not use the fan and go to 230c for about 30 minutes, without the fan should I go with the upper and lower heating element or full grill or grill and heating element? Also how long should I preheat my oven? I don't have a thermometer. 

Edit: also, my sourdough starter doesn't look like the typical ready starter I find on the internet, is there a reason?

clevins's picture
clevins

And yes, preheat for ~30 mins or so. The reason for no top element or convection is that you want to add steam and convection will just remove it. Top element heat can prematurely set the crust which can limit oven spring.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

converting to a stiff starter. Be patient with it as the lower amount of water will slow the fermentation down but you will have a hardy starter in a day or two.  So keep the 80% (or 100%) starter going and take some ripe starter from it.  Let's stick to the 20g.  Take 20g starter and add blend with 50g water. Work in the 100g mixture of flour.  Stir, pinch in the flour to form a stiff little dough ball.  Set into a dish or a new clean jar... whoops, forgot to ask...how much stiff starter does your recipe require?  If it is more than 170g we need to make it bigger.  :)

Watch the ball of covered starter ferment.  When ready it will expand and maybe crack and smell yeasty as it slowly looses it's shape flattening out slighty and get a bit mushy inside. It will also have expanded. If you break it apart it will be wetter inside than outside.  It may take about 12 hours overnight or stretch into the day.  Go by smell, you seem to have a good nose.  It will smell yeasty.  Then tear it apart for your recipe. Good luck.  Let us know if it doesnt ferment in 24 hours.  That would mean you would have to break off a piece when it does get ripe and feed it again at 50% hydration. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I'm not really sure what yeasty smells like and do you have a video on how to pinch the flour?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

you just need a small bowl and your fingers. Work in the flour. Keep one hand clean and pinch with the other hand using a thumb and the side of an index finger. You will figure it out.  Can also use a fork but fingers is more fun.

Yeasty is a like to light beer aromas or like good bread dough aromas.  There is an ongoing debate that yeast doesnt give off mush aroma, but I beg to differ.  You do have to live thru this to experience it.  You will recognize a dough filling up with gas and bloating with it. That is what you want to see.  it should smell pleasant and not like plain ol wet flour.  Roll the smooth starter ball into a little flour after you shape it so you can see easily when the cracks show up.  

Oh, and since you only need part of the 170g of stiff starter, cut off what you need for the recipe (go with the higher amount) and dry the rest flattening it out thin on plastic wrap to break into chips.  Then you have a dried back up for the future.   Or you can toss the rest of the firm starter into a small  jar, fridge and it is good for about a week before having to feed it with the same 50% combination.  See how flexible this stuff is?  You can easily get another loaf a week later from this stiff starter and then feed what is left to maintain it.  That is, if the refrigerator is nice and cold.

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

So I put out 20g of starter into a bowl, add in 100g of flour and 50g of water and then I mix it in with my hand. Do I pinch while I'm mixing or after I've mixed it in I pinch it into a ball? Should I also put it back into the jar and should I wash my jar before I put the starter back in?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You should end up with two starters, one with 80% or 100% hydration and a second jar or small bowl with 50% hydration.

To feed a stiff starter  Add water to the starter first and muck it up a bit then add the flour.  Stir at first with one finger until it starts getting too thick and you need to pinch and knead it with one hand and then two. When everything is blended together form the starter into a nice little ball and roll it into flour to coat the outside. Then set it into a clean small bowl or a jar and cover with a bit of plastic wrap and a rubber band.  Then let it ferment at about 26°C. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

If I'm only using about 20g of my liquid starter to form the stiff starter, can I keep the liquid starter covered in a bowl (air tight?) and put it in the fridge. If so how long will it last?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

put the liquid starter in the fridge. If it has peaked already it will last several days before it should be fed again. Cover to prevent drying out yet allow building gasses to escape. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I added the 20g of starter and 30g ww and 70g bread flour with a touch more than 50g of water (some of the flour wasn’t going into the starter) but when I was working it in it was very sticky. This is what it looks like, I’ve clingfilmed it in a bowl.

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

8 hours after my feeding this is what it looks like, it smells like there’s been fermentation (sour and maybe yeasty?) definitely doubled in size at least. If it is ready but I want to make bread tomorrow what do I do?

clevins's picture
clevins

This is a good guide for beginning sourdough baking. https://www.theperfectloaf.com/beginners-sourdough-bread/

Basically, waht you want to do is use a portion of the starter and add it to the rest of the ingredients. Ideally, you want to catch the starter as it peaks, but honestly, that's not super-critical. Don't strive for perfection early on. It's important to simply make the jump and bake. The link above is a good beginning recipe and process and what I like about TPL is that Maurizio gives you pictures for the steps, so you have an idea of what things should look like.

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

Can I feed this stiff starter so I can use it at its peak tomorrow?  

Edit: I'll be baking in 12 hours or so (the next day) as it's late already.

mariana's picture
mariana

Jaden, your starter looks good. Congratulations!

You can refrigerate your stiff starter for full 24 hours (deflate it first, please) or your liquid starter for up to 2 weeks and then use it straight from the fridge in your baking (some people warm them up before use, bringing them to 25-30C which takes between 30 to120 min at room temp, depending on the amount you take out).

If kept refrigerated longer, they need to be refreshed first - feed it, sometimes more than once, wait until it rises and matures, etc.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and bake with it tomorrow.  Great going!  

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

The stiff starter in the picture I showed was very sticky and I realized I didn't actually knead the flour in as you were suppose to. So today I took 10g of that starter and added 50g of flour and 25g of water and kneaded all of the flour in, now it's very dry. Did I do something wrong? I've got both that stiff starter and my liquid starter in the fridge as backup just in case.

Edit: Also, can I use a stiff starter in a liquid starter recipe and if so how do I do so?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The starter has less water in it with a second feeding as the starter is now closer to 50% hydration.  You can pinch in the flour or knead it into a counter top with shoulder leverage, or whatever.  The starters are all fine from the sound of things.  Very Good!  

It is much easier to convert a stiff starter to a wet one, instantly, just add more water to the ripe starter or add the difference to the recipe liquids. Try using a wet scissors to break up the ripe starter into small pieces for dough.  Not to worry too much as dough hydration will soften it more. Rather quickly in fact.  Impressive that it doubles so fast.  That gives you a hint to its power.  :)   

To make a stiff starter from a wet one, it takes at least one or two feedings to get the yeast activity level up.  That's been my experience.

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I started making bread today but the dough was just very sticky. I tried to do the thing where you make it into a ball but even when I was a ball it was still sticky. It’s about 23c in my home and I used 400g strong wheat flour (bread flour) at 80% hydration with 80g of stiff starter. Also it doesn’t look as smooth as I see in videos.

Abe's picture
Abe

For a bread flour is very high. No wonder it's sticky. Depending on flour, region and skill of the baker it can be done but there's no need for such high hydration. 70% is ample and even 60% is within a good range unless the flour is very thirsty. If I were you I'd start at 60% and slowly add in more water if needed until it feels right. Once you've got the hang of it you can increase the hydration but for now you want to be baking some nice sourdough getting used to the process without the added difficulty of high hydration. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I’ve kneaded the dough and I’m at the stage of proofing it. It’s not as sticky and there’s lots of bubbles across the dough though it hasn’t risen much. Can I still bake this? 

Abe's picture
Abe

Of course you can. Shape it the best you can, doesn't have to be perfect, and put it in a loaf pan. Bake when ready. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

Will I not be able to make sourdough bread with a crust?

Abe's picture
Abe

It depends on the hydration, how well the gluten has been developed, if it can hold its shape and if you can handle the dough. 

If you can shape it then fine. If not, then a loaf pan will be your best bet. You can still get a nice crust with steaming for the first 20 minutes. Then when it's fully baked remove it from the pan and return it to the oven for a nice all over crust. Better to get a loaf baked then to mess it up. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

When I shaped it I used some flour as my guide told me. I was able to do it fine without and sticking. I’ve put it into a covered bowl into the fridge to proof overnight.

Abe's picture
Abe

Best of luck. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

but here is a post for you.  Usually high temps and not enough food can cause this.  

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/39207/rye-starter-acetone-smell-when-it-ok-and-when-it-bad

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and wants three feedings in 24 hours.  26°C is a good temp. And use the discard as a sourdough starter in a recipe.

Congratulations!  You have a wild sourdough starter!  :)

Now for a home baker I don't think you want to have 8 hour feedings so you will want to slow it down so you don't become a slave to it.  There are several ways to do that.  First let it peak and bake with it setting 20 g aside to feed.

0ne way:

Starter: feed the 20g let it rise about to about a third of it's just fed volume (an hour or two) and put it into the fridge.  You have a good week on it until you need to use it and feed it again.  If you use it before about 4 days, then let it warm up and peak first before using in a recipe.  After being in the fridge for about two weeks, I would suggest refreshing or feeding it (making a levain) letting it peak before throwing into a bread recipe. And again saving 20g to feed, let rise a wee bit and then chill it.

 You soon get the hang of knowing how much starter to keep in the fridge for your baking habits. Three days after chilling the fed starter, you can remove some of the starter as a levain or build a levain for a recipe. Levains are often made the night before in room temps so that 8 to 12 hours later, you can put together the bread dough and watch it all day if need be.  

You can of course reduce or increase the size of the starter to suit your needs.

ok, now get baking! I figure you have about 180g of ripe starter (discard). Use it. Or chill it and mix up your dough in the morning.

 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

First load, didn’t rise very much, big air pockets and maybe a tad bit too sour. Nice crunchy crust. I think next time I’ll go with a 70% hydration and shorter proofing time and probably shape it tighter.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Ok, now for the next loaf.  Looking closely at the crumb you may notice the small bubbles are very round. That usually means the dough needed to bulk proof longer.  

Adding more sourdough culture to the dough will give less sour. I know. Sounds like it would be the opposite but less yeast in the starter or a small amount of starter creates a more sour tasting dough as it takes longer to build up the yeast numbers while the bacteria work away to acify the dough. You want a good number of active yeast in the starter.

The bigger bubbles come from not breaking large bubbles while shaping and/or shaping much too early. Let the dough bulk rise longer and then deflate well before shaping. Dropping the hydration is also a good idea as mentioned already. 

Oven temp looks good, almost even browning all around. Maybe a little more heat under the pot. Can you lower it in the oven without problems like burning?  Maybe just for the first half of the bake.

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I can lower it a bit more but I'm worried that it may cover up the pot that I've put water in.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

it works there too!

Abe's picture
Abe

Agree with Mini, needs a longer bulk ferment. Drop the hydration and don't shape till doubled if using all bread flour. I'd even recommend 60-70% hydration. Start at 60 and add more water if needed. Aim for tacky, not sticky. Also make sure your starter is ready. Might be a good idea to feed your starter and do a post asking if it looks like it's behaving ok. In the meantime enjoy your first loaf. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

Yeah I think I may have rushed it a bit after I converted my starter to a stiff starter. I'll give the stiff starter a few more feedings next loaf. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I bulk fermented for 4 hours for this loaf, doing 3 stretch and folds 30 minutes apart and the final stretch and fold after the 4 hours ended. How often should I check in on the dough to see if it has doubled? Every hours, half an hour etc. Also I didn't autolyse this dough, how long should I autolyse for? Google tells me 20-60 minutes but that's a pretty big time frame what signs should I look for to see if autolyse has finished?

Abe's picture
Abe

Build yourself a very active well fed starter. 100g bread flour starter at 100% hydration. Then onto the recipe...

  • 500g bread flour
  • 300g water (+ extra; if needed)
  • 10g salt
  • 100g mature starter 
  1. Mix the flour and salt. 
  2. Make a well. 
  3. Add the starter + water into the well. 
  4. Form the dough and knead till full gluten formation. About 10 minutes. You can slowly add more water while kneading till it feels right should it need it. 
  5. Bulk ferment till doubled. No fancy folds necessary. This way it'll be easier to judge when ready. 
  6. Shape and final proof for 1.5 - 2 hours. 
  7. Bake. 
Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

2nd loaf, tastes a lot better than last time the texture is also 10x better but it still doesn’t really rise into a ball shape. What do I do so that it rises more. Also the big bubbles are only towards the centre of the loaf.

Abe's picture
Abe

An improvement! However, still under fermented. 

I think we'd better take a look at your starter. Post the method how you maintain your starter. Do a starter build as you did for this recipe, and post photos when you think it's ready. 

Jaden Jin's picture
Jaden Jin

I use a stiff starter and I feed 10g of starter with 25g ww and 25g bread flour with 25g of water. It will more than double in size in around 9 hours. However I usually don’t bake when it’s reached it peak since I feed it at 1 usually. Could that be the reason? So if it peaks at 10pm, I'll probably use it the next day 12 hours later without another feeding.

Abe's picture
Abe

how is that maintained? 

However I usually don’t bake when it’s reached it peak since I feed it at 1 usually. Could that be the reason? So if it peaks at 10pm, I'll probably use it the next day 12 hours later without another feeding.

Not a good idea. I think a re-think about starter maintenance and prep would be a good idea.