"Rustikale Mischbrot" - closed crumb
It doesn't matter whether it's a highly hydrated wheat levain, or this, which is a rye-spelt-wheat mixed bread from Ploetzblog. I cannot for the life of me get an open crumb and I don't know why. Something somewhere in my process is killing it, I think. I don't know if I have gorilla hands during shaping, or where it is - and massive and variegated alveoli aren't really the end goal, but the ability to do them as desired would be a skill I'd like to recapture. I say "recapture" because it's weird but I used to be able to do it, many years ago, when I first came on here.
Anyway, here's the formula:
sourdough (sauerteig)
400 g rye flour 1150
400 g water (50°C)
80 g starter
8 grams of salt
pre-dough (poolish)
100 g wholemeal spelled flour
50 g water (cold)
1 g fresh yeast (I use .33 diy)
main dough
whole sourdough
entire pre-dough
460 g wheat flour 1050
200 g water (35°C)
13 grams of salt
Mix the sourdough ingredients and leave to rise at room temperature for 12-16 hours.
Mix the pre-dough ingredients into a very firm dough and leave to mature at room temperature for 12-16 hours.
Knead all ingredients for 5 minutes on the lowest setting and 6-8 minutes on the second setting to form a smooth, sticky dough (dough temperature approx. 26-27°C).
Leave the dough to rest at room temperature (approx. 20°C) for 60-70 minutes. Stretch and fold after 30 minutes.
Round the dough tightly and place in a floured proofing basket with the open end facing down.
Leave to mature for 75 minutes at room temperature.
Bake with seam side up at 270°C (250°C) falling to 210°C for 75-80 minutes with steam.
Preparation time on baking day: approx. 4 hours
Total preparation time: approx. 16-20 hours
By way of reference, here's his. First, I wonder why mine is so much darker? I used Central Milling's T85 for the T1050 wheat of the recipe, my own 85% yield bolted spelt, and KA medium rye. Seems much, much darker to me.
It's been pointed out to me on a German site what I obviously can't see - it's dry as hell. To be honest, I don't have a handle on knowing when enough water is enough. I've gotten a certain in wheat levains but that isn't solid, really, and I'm clueless when it comes to breads heavy in rye, spelt, or other grains. I do not know what to look for in the mixing bowl to say, should I be holding water in reserve, "yes, this dough needs more."
Through mariana, who gave me a fantastic hydration test to see how much a given flour or blend of flours can handle, I learned how to see the upper limit of hydration, but do not know at all how to judge a dough while it's mixing, what it needs.
Appreciate any guidance. Thanks.
Looks good.
I haven't gotten much oven spring when using 50% rye, spelt or rye+spelt together.
Using non-Germany sourced ingredients with a German recipe and expecting German results is not possible, at least it hasn't been for me. I have brought home flour from Germany in my luggage several times and compared to US-available flours. The German flour is a different plant grown in different soil with different growing conditions and milled using different machinery. It's not the same product as US-available products. It's different.
Where does Central Milling source their wheat? From reading the description on their website, and their Utah location - is it coming from Alberta? Their website says they "work with their farmers" but it doesn't say where the product was grown.
Hydration for this recipe does seem low. It looks from the photo of the baked loaf on the German site that there was tension in the dough mass during baking, so my conclusion is that it was not baked seam side up. I don't believe everything I read on the internet, so this may be playing a role. The German photo shows a loaf proofed in a banneton. It can be argued that it was baked seam side down, and not scored, producing the burst appearance.
Color may be affected by the ingredients (discussion above) and baking time/temperature and oven characteristics (temperature and steam gradient, thermal mass).
In summary, source of ingredients make a difference and online photos may not aways be consistent with text descriptions.
Thanks, great points. On Central Milling, yes, hadn't even thought of that because I tend to discount whole grain protein issues, a mistake. Especially when they're the only thing in the mix. This "T85 is 12.5% protein and I'm sure it's far stronger than any T 1050 in Germany or its equivalent in Austria. I'm sure Mini can speak to that. I've been baking Lutz's and Brotdoc's recipes exactly and I think this might have been the first one that truly bit me in the butt. Until plugging the numbers into my spreadsheet, I wasn't aware it's only 69% hydration, and whole grain (or "medium" whole grain) flours at that. I've bumped it to 71% and expect it can go to at least 75% without issues. I may do the max hydration trials mariana laid out so well.
And right, the loaf is proofed seams down then flipped, the classic rustic crust I've come to love in German, Austrian and Swiss baking. I'm also quite taken with the seams-up proofing, "tosssing" the loaf onto the peel method. Brotdoc and the community have been really nice in helping me to learn more about proofing in the context of their bread and these various techniques (including just under--proofing and to the point of over-proofing for conscious effects).
from the larger loaf but they could be, or perhaps a half size oblong loaf while splitting into smaller loaves. I don't think the loaf was baked in a banneton. It was laid in seam-side-down and flipped out for seem-side-up baking. I think it was Benny that commented that edges of loaves tend to have larger pores. So this could be just edge slices and the inner slices are not so airy. There are comments similar to yours about cell size and Walter posts the German reference: https://www.ploetzblog.de/faq-archiv/wie-erhalte-ich-in-der-brotkrume-eine-grobe-unregelmaessige-porung/
I suppose the question and differences might have more to do with the length and temp of the two preferments, the levain and the poolish and how fermented they were. It could easily be the levain was more ripe than it should be...1:5:5 ratio 12 to 16 hrs. Which times did you use? Your levain might be ready closer to 8 to 12 hrs. The 69% total hydration seems low to me. Especially for the flour types. The levain is 100% hydration, the biga 50%, and the rest 43% but how was the finished sticky dough feel? What order did you mix the final ingredients?
I'd be tempted on the next try to move and mix 100g of the final wheat flour into the rye levain to extend the life of it (if you need the extra time) and bring the levain hydration down to 81%. What's the room temp? I've gotten more open crumb doing that -- putting a little wheat flour into a rye levain.
Wow, thank you Mini. That first paragraph is a awesome help and I'm going to have to chew on this for awhile (I know). Lutz does call for it to be placed seams down in a floured basket, and flipped as you say. Do you mean you think it was free-proofed seams down, no brotform, etc.? Quite an observation by Benny, but then the man seems to see everything so acutely and well (as do you). Looking forward to looking into this more.
Per my post to Semolina, right off the bat yes, I think I totally missed the pickup on too low a hydration for the higher-extracted flours, and American flours at that. I bumped it some as I mentioned and we'll see.
And perfect call on the overfermentation of (both) the sauerteig and vorteig. In truth I'm too impatient to start the previous night's starters....love playing with this stuff! - so I begin around 6 with this, kochstuck, brüstück, etc. Which means I'd have to get up early to start. I sleep pretty terribly and take some meds for a few things that mean I'm pretty looped early and can't effectively start until 8:30--9, so...yep, overfermented. I'll go back to 12 hours, or less, which is what I used to do, even with Hamelman who gives the same window as Lutz (I'm sure you know this) of 12-16 hours. Given my kitchen is 21, that's on the lower end of both Jeffrey and Lutz's temp so I felt at liberty to take it to 16 hours. I also didn't mind the acid load, prefer it to something like Tartine's "green" levain.
But I know when I see both they are on the downhill side and have undoubtedly sustained some damage. There's mature and there's....past mature and I think you nailed it. Noted and will do.
In order the morning of the mix, I add the vorteig and sauerteigs first (and any called-for cultured yeast), then the main dough flours, then the water, which is usually hotter than 22 or so Many times much hotter, so I want to protect the live components.
Unless there's a kochstuck/früstuck or brüstuck that is meant to be mixed with boiling water. These go in, with any salt, mixed, then the flour(s) then the living components. I should mention that as a general point liquid levains go in before bigas or stiff starters, which get torn into small chunks and scattered over whatever surface.
For rye breads, rarely do I go into KA speed 2. For spelts, some speed 2, but not much. For a true dreierbrot or something like that, longer on KA 2 but pretty ginger still. I try to finish outside the mixing bowl with folds, etc.
Awesome note on using some wheat in the rye as a means to extend the curve. Is that because rye has just so much sugar this helps to slow the metabolism a bit, by weight? Would you mind explaining to me the "why it works" behind the method?
To work on one variable at a time, do you think it would be reasonable to simply incrementally up the total hydration, then if that's not doing anything well, do your suggestion of wheat/rye starter and lower liquid starter hydration - or just do that as a matter of course, a new SOP for rye liquid starters?
Thanks Mini. As always so much to go on.
is a translation but there is no pinched seam. One scrunches up the disk of dough, sort of like a big coin purse to get that rough star burst look. Make sure you have a ball of dough before placing it scrunch side down into the banneton. (Variation: In this action after scrunching the dough together, flip the scrunch upside-down on your countertop and give it a half turn to smear the seams into a twist, then transfer quickly to the floured banneton.)
OK thanks, Mini. I'd always thought "Schluss nach unten" meant that kind of rough closing side down, without basically trying too hard to form truly closed, pinched seams (I think I might have gotten this from a comment from Brotdoc, see below - and extrapolated it to everything erroneously).
Does it literally mean "closing," like a well-pinched/closed seam in "standard" shaping and forming. only down, not up during proofing?Or is it at all a kind of generic term for "closure down," with lots of different variations for specific effects. I'm thinking of Brotdoc as I mentioned, for one. Just found it:
I actually am trying to learn the language because there are so many books out there and it kills me not to get through them fluidly. Am I getting this right, that basically you want to make a round and work to close it - some - but make sure the surface is well floured so you don't actually end up with well-sealed seams?
-and then I get the purse thing, perfect image, thank you. That is really helpful.
So. Sorry for the cloudy writing. How do you feel about these different "variations," I guess I'd call them, in terms of how well we actually "close" the "closures" - unless I'm just getting the German wrong?
Edit: You just said, no, it's not pinched closed, sorry. Trying to envision how tightly to bring together, and if it's this "scrunching down" one always does to give adequate adhesion, without too much.
all right. Rye flour is also used as the shaping bench flour because it prevents the dough from sticking to itself. You would think that such a sticky pasty rye dough flour would bind everything firmly together. But in this application it keeps folds apart. Rye flour is also bench flour of choice for shaping kaiser rolls to make the folded roll "bloom" during the bake.
I watched a tv show today, "Silvia Cooks" baking Linzer poppy braid rolls, Mohnflesserl, and the shaping of them. Her recipe included a preferment, malt, and a cooked piece which reminds me of cooled porridge or thick tangzhong. I can get the recipe off the tv teletext later. She shapes differently making first a large loop. More than one way to shape a roll. Anyway, here is a different link using, what else but ye old vienna dough for hard rolls, kaisers, etc. They can be made with or without a light sprinkle of pretzel salt (hagel salz or hail salt) and I started drooling just watching the show. The braid starts as one long snake looped, twisted and tucked thru to make the braid. The trick to shaping is a short folding of the dough twice to preshape before making the snake. While searching, saw a spelt recipe but didn't check it out yet. https://www.backenmitchristina.at/rezepte/mohnflesserl/
I think I need another duplicate bake tomorrow Mini! This one is better in terms of texture (including the crust - which is thinner and crunches nicely and not painfully), but I'm still really bummed as it's a tortured mess. I tried your technique but I am clearly off on it. I rolled it fairly tightly, pressed down and actually twisted (not like a caveman on either. I'd say just a light on both) - it's almost impossible to tell in this because it's so ugly, but I can see how it would work, sounds like such a beautiful result.
Two things. It's interesting to me you said to use rye because I used T85 as the bench flour, figuring it was the main player. But honestly when I turned over to see the seams underneath, all but a couple were completely sealed up. And of the ones visible, they were really fine and short. Three, very hairline seams. Does that help explain this result's "chasms"? The bread had nowhere to go?
Secondly, I don't understand the dull, really heavily caramelized crust. I've adopted a new steaming method - using a 250CC hypo to inject 100ml water onto a large tray filled with preheated lava rocks, and in addition using a garden sprayer with a fine mist just covering everywhere. Then again in a couple minutes with the sprayer. So I'd think if anything I'm getting a better steam saturation, though "saturation" is used figuratively since it's a gas oven with venting. The blackness seems weird, because I'm doing nothing different otherwise. Steam, gelatinizing starches and making more sugar available?
Finally, and acknowledging semolina's comments on trying to replicate a German formula with American flours, still - his is so white, mine is so dark. I'm using what we've concluded is somethig between an 1150-1370 rye, the vollkorn dinkel, and a T85 wheat, which could arguably be said to be lighter than T1050 (I've seen both T80 and T110 used as equivalents, the latter being Drax Muehle). Any thoughts on why his essentially 50:50 mischbrot is so light, mine is so dark?
Your last paragraph, thank you so much! I wasn't aware how important brötchen and other little delights in shapes and flavors are in German and Austran baking. To be honest I've been scared off because my baking of regular loaves in these traditions sucks so much, lol. I've lost my pastry mojo! But they're all so wonderful....Dinkelsonnen, Mohnzopf from Lutz's first book....really a special other world. Thanks, I'll check it out.
The loaf is not ugly, it's charming. I prefer the darker loaves myself and wondering why many of my ryes are turning out light colored. I can only guess that sombody is running off with the dark fiber outer parts and leaving us with the endosperm. Maybe some dark beers are in the making or there's a demand for natural coloring, big time. Or not enough sun in the fields? Next year the crop might be different.
So you want a shine on your loaf. Got a clean (as in new) 4 to 5 inch paintbrush? Boil up a spoonful of cornstarch in a cup of water (it's been awhile, play with the amounts) let it cool and thin if necessary. You want something the consistency of milk. Brush or dab it onto the loaf when hot from the oven. Not too much, only need a little bit. The heat from the loaf will dry thr glaze quickly. I got some glitter dust if you want to brush on fancy smancy. Turn cave man to lucky charms? (You brought up cave man not me. Don't know where you got that from.) (also charming)
Found that rye flour I wanted to try out but that last bag on the shelf was almost expired. The bread came out darker and the rise a little lower. Still playing with that coriander orange zest rye. At a week old, the crumb is dark but not as dark as yours (jealous I am.) The rye flour has 9% protein, and 14% fiber, carbs listed as 60% which is lower than most. Flour smells... smells like some camomile was growing nearby. Forget the flowers-in-your-face tea bags. This conjures up (wait for it) childhood summer memories walking zigzaggity barefoot, in a tractor path, the middle flowered green between fields in Southwest Wisconsin. I'm just going to sit here and take in the dust and germs without the diesel wind of a nearby tractor. Not too healthy to sniff raw dried flour. Don't recommend it. Better quit while I'm ahead. Wow, wasn't expecting that delicate aroma. It's very subtle.
You're very kind. As always.
I absolutely, completely love this post, Mini. It's truly very special. I now know how acute your palate is (I've known for as long as I've been here, but it really sinks in now and it's lovely) and how wonderfully this serves your baking, and probably all cooking that you do. The orange coriander and chamomile all sound so beautiful. I can't wait to see what you do. And your knowledge down to the grain level is something I really wish I had. It's nice to know materials so well, as well as you do, to know how to adjust accordingly (or just plain leap for joy when you've gotten a ringer or two).
It's one thing I drool over on the German baking sites. Not only their ready availability of all kinds of flours, but their seeming choice among so many millers within reasonable distance, many of whom, at least from this outsider's perspective, they seem to know. With 5 centuries now confirmed of family coming from Shopfeim, Lörrach with some monkey business across the borderin Liestal, I really want to go and spend some serious time gallavanting around Germany and Austria, and take as much baking and milling (OK, cooking and all manner of food) as I can.
Shine - thank you. Probably wrong word. Not looking for the Borodinsky or Latvian "sheen" from the slurry wash, but that lustre that comes from a well-proofed and baked loaf - not the dead dullness of my attempts here over the last couple days.
SW WI, are you kidding me??? Though born and bred (and lived) in the S. Cal. Pacific ocean, I am a long-time Driftless Wisconsinite now, with our son going to UW-Madison! Do you ever come back?
Here's today. Cooling now, will cut the crumb later.
Typo
Not baked in a banneton, proofed in a banneton. My bad, corrected now.
In the interest of clarity (he says, doubtfully), when it comes to long loaves, I've seen people place them closure down into the form then somewhat press the dough into the form, even flattening it a bit. Is this akin to your "scrunching down" to some extent, for oblong loaves - and would one just as easily, perhaps might even be better, to press the loaf some down on the worktable, analogous to the rounds?
No. I never press a rye dough down into a banneton or form. I let the dough do the work and gravity. I can better judge what is happening in the dough if it starts to flatten itself.
I leave a lot of space around the dough if it is stiff enough to shape into a log.
Spooning the dough into a pan one has to be careful not to trap air between the scoops of dough. Then it might be good to do a little pushing around of the dough to close those spaces. The dough will expand as it rises both before baking and in the oven and fill in the spaces between the dough and the pan.
Great. Thanks Mini.
Just a note and request for further input. Mixed according to above mods and it seemed to be a nice improvement. However, it definitely needs further development out of the bowl (5 min. at KA 1, 6, then add'l 2 minutes on KA 2), and I didn't trust the single fold called for in the recipe's 60-70 min. bulk would suffice.
I did easily over 100 FF's. The entire time I was concerned about damaging the overall gluten structure given the proportion of rye and spelt, even with the 360 g of T 85 wheat in the main dough. This wasn't helped when I'd get some nice dough after awhile, but then it would just break very loose. This is different with the standard FF's I know, where you think you're developing well, but then you end up with a burst of flaccid dough and have to keep going.
I felt this would never change and again, because of my concerns about damaging what little is there, I stopped.
Lutz and Brotdoc both like to add warm to boiling water to the main dough for DDT around 27-28C, then bulk and proof (at a room temperature of 20-22 C) for some unspecified falling temp over the course of their relatively short bulk and proofing periods.
Because of MY FF's, DT = 22C. Obviously much lower than the DDT of 27-28C, so instead of bulk fermenting at room temp, I plan on bulk and proofing at 27C, my normal heated chamber.
1. With the flour ratios of 48% T 85 wheat, 42% rye, and 10% rye, is there cause for concern re: "standard" kneading and dough development? Is there a thing analogous to high diastatic-malt, where the malt can saccharify all other grains in a mash, even if the malt percentage is low? I.e., can 48% wheat in a total blend be enough to knead as much one would with a straight wheat or 80-90% wheat blend?
2. Temperatures. Given the above missed DDT target (AT=22C), is this fermenting at 27C for what will likely only be a couple hours (given the huge sauerteig and vorteig inoculations, almost 55% pre-ferment), reasonable? Or would you just ferment at the stuckgare/stückgare temp called for, room temp of 20-22C, for as long as it takes?
Thanks.
Paul, you're trying hard to make me cringe for the poor dough. Maybe I should ask what FF's are but it sounds exhausting. The beauty in Rye dough even a half/half mixed rye and wheat dough is not having to use that dough for any kind of therapy. :)
Bulking and proofing at 27°C sounds good. Can't answer the malt question. I try to keep active malt low.
The wheat portions may need more development with more wheat in the dough but there is 100g wheat in a poolish perking away quietly for 12 hours. Thats a good deal of development. I even wonder about having a bulk rise but it might be just to hydrate the wheat flour before shaping. Most of the dough is already prefermented. If I wanted to shorten the bulk and proofing time, I would shorten the bulk time first, just long enough to hydrate the flour.
Hahaha....OK, um, yep, that comment about caveman? Let me amend that.
OK, yeah, clearly I abused this poor thing to oblivion. Thanks for helping me to understand that the massive amount of pre-ferment and even a 50:50 rye:wheat does a lot of work already. FF's=French folds, Bertinet folds? Are these the same as "slap and folds?"
Thank you Mini. A lot of learning today through the exchanges. I appreciate your generosity.
BTW - side note - but have you ever read the book: Kaffeehaus: Exquisite Desserts from the Classic Cafés of Vienna, Budapest, and Prague? Pretty wonderful book. I have such an avalanche of French stuff everywhere it's nice to have a dedicated Austrian and middle-European coffee-house baked goodies book. Nice little work.
Crumb. Work in progress, but so much more pleased than before. Thanks you two, and special thanks to Mini for such detailed guidance along the way.
Looks good. Is this a >50% wheat + spelt loaf?
Thanks, getting better. Actually devoured it tonight as a family, good sign, lol.
460 T1050 Wheat, 100 T1050 spelt, 400 T1150 Rye. Huge pre-ferment. something totally alien to me until I started digging in to the German books and community. I'm really, really loving learning from this perspective. I'm definitely a convert.
it certainly opened up the crumb. Nice.
I skimmed over a comment, did you want to make a rye loaf that has that smooth floury surface with lots of cracks all over the surface? Another fun technique to try.... :)
Line the cane banneton with a towel. 1) Shape a rye round and with slightly wet hands smooth the surface. 2) Let the surface "dry" for a few minutes and then dust (sieve) the loaf and the towel with rye flour and flip top side down (seam up) gently onto the towel. 3) pick up the corners of the towel and dough to transfer to a dry banneton. Let rise about a third and then flip out of the banneton, removing the towel. The cracks will happen naturally as it bakes, no scoring. Rye does the work.
Well, in terms of the fix, that's all you so thanks, Mini.
And yep, spot on, that's what I'm after and I've never heard of your technique - usually I've seen it with the top being floured a few times through the proof and then "tossed" top-side up onto the peel and into the oven. I'd love to try your technique. Vielen dank!