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Raisin Yeast Water Producing "Yogurty" Levains

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Raisin Yeast Water Producing "Yogurty" Levains

For over a year now, I have kept a bottle of raisin yeast water going.  I use it in many of my bakes, and a 1-qt bottle would typically last 2-4 weeks.  So rough math, I refreshed it 18-20 times over the last year.  I used SunMaid raisins as the fruit, local raw honey as the sugar source, and either pink salt or sea salt for minerals (depending on whatever salt I grabbed week-to-week).

My normal refresh...  200g RYW, 700g water, 35g honey, 3.5g salt.  Combine and ferment at 76 deg F for 1.5-2 days until nice and bubbly when shaken.  It has been very consistent.  Until my last refresh...

The last two levains I've made (white bread flour at 120% hydration) are noticeably sour with a yogurt aroma after 12 hours at 70-72 deg F.

It's possible that I somehow contaminated the RYW with LABs from my starter.  Not sure how, but definitely use my RYW in my sourdough bakes.  I also just read a recipe in Bread where raw honey and sea salt are used to leaven dough with the sea salt activating the LAB and wild yeast in the raw honey (recipe states it has to be raw honey), but the temperatures cited are higher than what I typically refresh at.  I also changed raisins.  Bought a bag of Eillein's, and now looking closer at the label, I see they have the palm oil/sunflower oil glaze.

Has anyone ran into this before?  I know that's not much to go on and the possibilities are endless.  Just curious if the regular RYW users have had a batch go "sour".  Ironically, the RYW does not smell sour at all.  Smells normal, although it lacks that "beer" smell they can get after sitting in the refrigerator for a while.  Maybe an indication that I've lost the yeast and the bubbles I'm seeing are from LABs?

My dilemma now...  Do I refresh the "sour" RYW because the levain it produces is unique and different than my regular SD starter.  :-)

 

Abe's picture
Abe

I just use raisins (or any other fruit that I can find at the time) and water. Honey makes sense to me but i'm not sure where the salt comes in. I've never put salt in my yeast water although I can't see it contributing to the yoghurty taste. 

My yeast water sits in the fridge for months at a time and seems ready to leaven bread or inoculate a new batch with no problems. Invariably I will refresh it if it's been a while even though it doesn't really need it. Never had anything but yeasty flavours coming from it. If it's been a long while the only other aroma it might give to the fermenting dough is alcohol even if used in very small quantities and building up the dough with flour and water in stages. So even if it's a few grams of YW in the first build the alcohol aroma stays with it. That's the only reason why I do a refreshment and not because it lacks strength. 

The only other thing I can think of is the honey in your yeast water. Honey has bacteria in it but won't ferment as it is. It needs to be mixed with water and that kicks off the process. Thinking about it now i'm just wondering if beyond starting off a yeast water with honey, and using the YW without keeping it going, would be best. If you wish to keep it going it might be best to leave the honey out altogether. Here's the reason why... bacteria in honey is fine because of the properties of honey. It won't ferment and the bacteria can't propagate properly. Once water is mixed in it's a different story. Now some problems might occur. Not to scare you but botulism is one of them. Because the bacteria in honey can now grow one has to be careful once it's been diluted in water. Good news is botulism that is very harmful doesn't have an aroma however the same bacteria can cause spoilage. When one makes mead the conditions for the mead and alcohol % prevents bacteria from growing. I'm thinking in a YW all those conditions aren't met properly. So while using honey to kickstart a YW to use and not keep going it's fine. But to keep a YW going with honey the whole time might provide an environment where the bacteria in honey can multiply. 

In other words honey doesn't spoil only when in its natural state. Once the honey is diluted then there's a problem of spoilage and one needs to be careful. Sourdough is a lactic acid ferment. The lactic acid bacteria keep bad bacteria at bay and is very safe. Yeast Water is not a lactic acid ferment and won't keep bad bacteria at bay. Honey used to make alcohol has been given the right conditions so that the bacteria cannot multiply but these are also not met in yeast water which only produces a very small amount of alcohol. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

hmmm...  Maybe not worth messing with it then.

With my travel schedule, I usually don't have a 5-day window to ferment a fresh batch, so I do like to keep one on hand and going in the refrigerator.  I'll have to see if I can find a window in the schedule and make a new one.  As soon as I get some new raisins without the oil glaze...

Abe's picture
Abe

If so then of course the above issue wouldn't be a problem. But a lot of honey is raw so then there's an issue. I would leave honey out if keeping YW on-going. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Local, raw honey. 

Thanks for the info!

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Much to unpack here Abe regarding several inaccuracies.

I'll follow up if I get time..

Abe's picture
Abe

And it's now in the secondary ferment. I was very concerned about botulism and brewing so tried to look up a lot about it. What I understood about it was while there could be an issue with honey in it's natural state the bacteria can't reproduce and it's only when diluted can anything happen. Important for fermentation but also it's when other things can grow. However mead is fermented in such a way that it doesn't provide a good environment for the bacteria to take hold. I would have thought that YW falls short of this criteria. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Botulism, another thing to be afraid of, like COVID. Fair enough we should be worried about the reality of these things but did the Vikings making their mead worry about it?! Probably not!

Firstly, botulism is a medical condition, the common bacterium is Clostridium botulinum and its protein toxin are what can be harmful, still, some vain people like to have it injected into their foreheads!

This bacterium was once a problem for the canning industry but modern approaches have basically eliminated that. Home canning is where the danger really lies.

Reasons not to worry:

This pathogenic bacterium is a strict anaerobe and doesn't like low water activity nor acidity. It's growth is inhibited at below pH 4.6 (Wikipedia), so higher than is typical for honey, and with such a high sugar content and a low water content, water activity is low enough to prevent most any spoilage. Of course that changes when you add water but yet the pH will still be low and oxygen is prevalent.

The risk of botulism is real but unlikely in successful fermentations.

I think the real concern with raw /unpasteurised honey is there could be trace amounts of the toxin present which is more dangerous to infants and the immunosuppressed. In context there are probably trace amounts naturally occurring toxic substances in all sorts of of processed and unprocessed foods. E.g. Cyanide in stone fruits, cassava (dangerous levels), Arsenic in rice... 

Let's not forget alcohol is a toxin too... ;)

Abe's picture
Abe

A lot of what you said, especially about mead being made for centuries etc, did occur to me. But like when I first started sourdough and saw what happened in the first few days I had to get over the "fear" of dealing with bacteria and it's all part of the natural process. I was comforted to know what while honey does contain bacteria the likelihood of anything going wrong is next to nothing for all the reasons you said. Mead fermenting just doesn't support the bacteria producing botulism. The bacteria which causes botulism can also cause spoilage though and I thought perhaps using some in YW, which isn't as controlled as mead and doesn't provide a hostile environment for the bacteria, could have helped to spoil it especially if kept for a long time. 

Oh heck... i've got 5L of a toxin :)

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Hmmm.... wouldn't baking denature the botulinum toxin? The wikipedia page says, "This toxin is detoxified by holding food at 100 °C for 10 minutes."

And also, the anaerobic conditions necessary for making CLAS (and FLAS!) which are cultures made under anaerobic conditions mean they're also something to worry about, or is the low pH something that protects there?

-Jon

Abe's picture
Abe

However the toxin remains. Lactic acid ferment is very safe as it keeps these bacteria at bay. So while anaerobic conditions are needed for this bacteria to thrive they won't survive the lactic acid.   

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I use organic  raisins from Nuts.com . I have never used anything else to get it going. Never any sweetener . I maintain mine by watching the raisins. If they are floating all is fresh enough , when they sink I remove them pour the YW off leaving the sludge in the bottom put the pour off in a fresh qt container add the handful of new raisins top off with water. Leave in warm place 24 hrs back to fridge. Been doing this for 10 yrs? About. Never a problem. I’ve never started a new one. I always just keep the old and refresh with new water and raisins. Done. Hope this simplifies. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

It does help and thank you.  Simplifies things greatly and eliminates some variables.  I'll have to place an order for the raisins.  Don't think I'll find any around here.

The odd thing...  The YW does not at all smell sour or vinegary.  Smells almost "crisp" like a seltzer.  The raisins are floating as normal.

Abe's picture
Abe

Although I think you use YW much more often than me so mine sits in the fridge for a long time between and refreshment. Long past the raisins sinking however it's always been very healthy. For a refreshment i'll replace all the raisins and all the water expect for 1 tablespoon. Within 1/2 - 1 day all the raisins are floating and it's fizzing away. 

Ming's picture
Ming

This post couldn't come at a better time as I am about to make some YW for the first time. Thanks Troy! 

Thanks C. for sharing your YW maintenance regime. 

I just bought a can of raisins from our local Kroger grocery store. This is pretty expensive stuff at about $6 so it better perform better than my instant yeast for me to justify spending more money on it. :)

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Approximately how long in the fridge before the raisins sink and YW needs to be refreshed?

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

As Jon said . I lift the fruit out so as not to stir up the dead yeast cells in the bottom. I do save a good bit more than a spoon full usually but depends how much I am going to use. 

I love Granny Smith apples organic with peel chopped makes a great YW. I didn’t have luck with red apples of any kind. 

Abe's picture
Abe

If one uses yeast water straight in the final dough. However if one does a two stage build pre-ferment, like in Hamleman's Swsiss Farmhouse Bread, the the first build is like a refreshment. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Since I don’t use YW often, it seems easy enough to make one on demand.
Would a YW survive freezing?

Has anyone tried this?

Abe's picture
Abe

Just keeping it in the fridge seems easier than freezing though. It can last ages. 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

I just strain the old raisins or apple pieces to discard them and add fresh raisins/apple and top up the water. All done by eye.  It never spends time at room temperature (although it did when originally making it) and is immediately returned to the fridge. Feed about every two weeks, or sooner if I bake with it. I use non oiled expensive organic raisins made from hanepoort grapes which is a sweet grape. The raisins have stalks and seeds. Apple pieces are from peeled green apples although I will use red apples if I don't have green. Also have one fed with malt syrup (1:10 water) but that one did show contamination in the fridge and I'm discontinuing it. Here they are (and have an extra jar each of the apple and raisin that you don't see here):

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thanks for the picture Jon.  I use a lot less fruit than this but add in the honey.  Water column looks the same as your center jar though.

I'm definitely going to have to start a new one.  Seems I'm the oddball on YW maintenance.  :-)

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

With Manukka raisins with seeds. Must be something about that ? Yours look great. 

My levain build goes crazy in just a couple hrs so even though it doesn’t seem terribly active it’s great . 

I have no idea what the levain “ becomes “ if you only give the flour YW at the start and then plain water after. I do know whatever is growing definitely stays very strong even when I don’t give it YW only water and flour for extended periods. It isn’t sour though so I think the YW bugs stay active

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

I have recently started a yeast water as well.  It seems to be slow (presumably due to low initial populations), but powerful after concentrating power via one or more levain stages.  It seems this tendency could be well suited to delayed fermentation for an extensible pizza dough via Pain à l'Ancienne.  I was thinking of mixing up flour, salt and yeast water (sans levain) and then sticking it in the fridge for a could of days, followed by a room temperature final proof before shaping.  I would be curious to hear thoughts from those who use it regularly.

If the YW levain is repeatedly refreshed with flour, does it eventually turn into a SD starter?

Abe's picture
Abe

And then maintain it like a sourdough starter the it will turn into a sourdough starter. The YW will have the yeast and flour plus time will introduce the LAB. 

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Mixed up a dough for pizza with 572 g of CM artisan bread flour, 411 g date and apple yeast water, 12 g salt, 20 g EVOO, and 10 g SD (as a hedge).  70 turns in the food processor + some Rubaud then in the fridge.  I'm curious how that will compare to the 3 g of yeast called for in BBA.

Abe's picture
Abe

I use just a few grams per bread and build a pre-ferment with it. Have you tried Hamelmans Swiss Farm House bread? The Yeast Water is only used to inoculate a little flour and it's a pre pre-ferment stage. It strengthens the yeast and converts it to a starter. Very little ends up in the final dough but still has strong leavening power. 

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

I haven't made that one yet, although I have read the formula, and much of the YW CB discussion (there is quite a lot to sort through!).  I did one test bake with the YW after making it and used a single stage levain approach modeled on that recipe.  Since the build was so slow, my sense was that 100% YW would still be a relatively small inoculation (relative to 3 g IY), and some residual sugar from the dates might be interesting.  The acid from the YW seems to bring the dough together nicely.  Perhaps it will adversely affect the balance later on.  I thought it would be interesting to try, especially where a somewhat forgiving extensible dough is called for.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Here is a link with my experience making a quick YW. I haven’t kept them going, because they are so quick yo make.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60872/community-bake-hamelmans-swiss-farmhouse-part-1-yeast-water#comment-438525

Here is a link with information from Debra.

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/60872/community-bake-hamelmans-swiss-farmhouse-part-1-yeast-water#comment-438531

Ming's picture
Ming

Whew, there is a lot of good YW info in these linked threads, Danny. Thanks. 

Ming's picture
Ming

Great. Thanks. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

These are great links.  Thanks Dan and Jon!

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thank you everyone for the comments and posts.  A lot to sort through but think this will certainly help!

mwilson's picture
mwilson

... that is perhaps one common misunderstanding!

Any spontaneous ferment opens the door for opportunists, such is nature. While yeast may dominate a typical YW, who knows what might be waiting in the wings...

LAB can't really contaminate a YW, as usually the acid from the fruit pushes the pH low enough (pH <3.7) to supress them and the very fluid environment is not particularly helpful to them either.

However, upon adding flour the pH will increase considerably, lowering the acidity and so create an environment optimal for LAB...

It might be the LAB are going to town in the levain, some degree of growth is inevitable but depending on your unique circumstances they could well be running amok...

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

That is the beauty of YW. I use lots of different things to ferment my YW. Dried fruit, organic fresh bananas ( an amazing response!) apples and whatever catches my fancy. I don’t pay attention to anything but the resulting fermentation. I have been very lucky in approx 10 yrs I haven’t had a failure. I mix and match and if they battle it out they do so  gracefully and allow me my bread successes. 

I hope others will explore the ease and wonder of YW without undue worry over who is the winning culture. 

mwilson's picture
mwilson

While you might be wrapped up in your own jubilations, I'm not sure how that provides an explanation to the problem Troy encountered. Beyond your rose tinted spectacles, problems do exist and they need an explanation otherwise all you have is luck and you're lucky if you have that...

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I bet your bread has an exceptional and unique flavor unlike anyone else’s . 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thanks for the response Caroline.  This post along with the link Jon posted above has me completely rethinking my YW.  Time to try the blueberries again!  Tried them for a while but couldn’t really tell much difference from the RYW.  BUT…. I was using the same practice of a small amount of fruit with a large amount of honey.  So, I think all along I’ve really been keeping a honey YW for the most part.  🤣

Abe's picture
Abe

Dried Mulberries make a really strong YW. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thanks!  That would certainly match up with the lack of sour smell in the YW but the sour levain.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Thank you all again for the comments and feedback.  I learned quite a bit and walked away with four main points.

1)  I haven't been maintaining a raisin YW.  I've been maintaining a honey YW with a few raisins thrown in.

2)  Every time I used my YW, I would shake the jar thoroughly, which would resuspend all the "dust" on the bottom.  Probably not a good practice.  If there are bacteria in the YW, they have a higher likelihood of being attached to the solids sitting on the bottom.

3)  My maintenance routine wasn't the best because I was also suspending "dust" and moving it to the refreshed YW, which increases the chance of building a bacterial population.

4)  I need to consider 2-stage builds with my YW if I keep it in the refrigerator (but I must say that I found RonRay's system of keeping his YW at room temp intriguing!) 

I have started a new raisin YW and a new blueberry YW.  I took 50g of the current YW (without shaking first) and added 100g of fruit and 450g of water.  The raisins are organic raisins that I was able to find locally (surprisingly) and the blueberries are frozen berries that we picked locally last fall.  After 24 hours at 75-77 deg, the raisins are already plump and over 3/4 of them are floating.  The blueberries still look dormant.  Not seeing any bubbles there yet.

Looking forward to trying this YW soon!

JonJ's picture
JonJ

This comment of yours has left me wondering about the sediment at the bottom of the containers.

Not sure if we can assume if it is dead or living yeast cells that make this up, but if I had a good microscope or SEM to hand I sure as hell would want to take a look at what that sediment consists of.

Just because it is gathered at the bottom doesn't mean it is dead, it could be the main repository of yeast in the culture and it seems a pity to just throw it away.

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Would not be surprised if it is a high concentration of live yeast there.  I'm just going back to my scenario with the levains starting to come out sour (again with yesterday's bread but that may be flour related too (whole grain)).  If there are bacterial populations forming, my guess would be it's in the dust and transferring that from bottle to bottle with every refresh is increasing the likelihood that they adapt and thrive in the YW conditions.  That's a guess though and I'd have to defer to someone with more experience/knowledge on the subject.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner
trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Growth! Excellent fragrance bubbly and definitely alive!

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Interesting...  Not all dead, but maybe a lower active population.

You mentioned sweet aroma.  Same as the levain from the clear liquid or noticeably different?

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

than the clear liquid but no trace of fruitiness in either ferment. More a “ clean” fragrance . It’s like a very light pudding. Beautiful consistency. I believe you are right just a lower population and if I fed it more and left it ano24 hrs it probably would be the same as the clear YW. Also it’s a fresher YW that was put in a clean container just a few days ago so an old sludge would likely differ. You should try the comparison too. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Will try it with the old honey YW tonight👍

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I poured off everything very carefully leaving all the concentrated sludge and added a few tsp of filtered water to the sludge and poured it into a clean container. That way I got all of the small amount of sludge and no YW . Can’t wait to see what you get. 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

And for years and years I treasured the sediment and assumed it was a rich store of “ stuff” providing an ongoing source of necessary ingredients to my YW. 

Then I read somewhere that it was dead yeast cells . Well I started disposing of it at each changing of the fruit. I noticed no change at all in my YW… none. 

If it has necessary properties or if it is gunk that threatens the YW and limits its potential you couldn’t prove either by me. Years and years of maintaining my YW with fresh Granny Smith , as raisins simply didn’t work , putting fresh orange peel in to keep the YW fresher between fruit changes using bananas which are REALLY robust YW lovers but do provide flavor to the dough , back to raisins which are now “ working” ….its all making my bread adventures extremely successful. I too would like to know what that stuff is. If you read ALL my old posts on YW you will see I extoll the virtues of the accumulation of this stuff . 

Hoping to get some science here . Maybe Bennie can take some to work and borrow a lab microscope and give us some insight. 🙏

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Well, it might make an interesting experiment, drain off the top, and add 1 or 2ml of concentrated sediment from the bottom to some flour and water and see if performs better or worse than 1 or 2 ml of the liquid from the top part of the same jar.

I'm going to play.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

 Residue after removing 30  floating raisins from active YW and pouring off all clear YW.

 

 

residue mixed with filtered water no YW in this mix

 

 

 
Sludge ain’t movin much after same time period as the YW

The sludge rose!!! Nice bubbles thick and sweet fragrance! So I was wrong! It lives. 

 


Mixed with Arrowhead Mills AP placed in warm microwave covered and will monitor.

Great idea. Do a Timelapse of the activity! I will play too. My funk is younger than your  funky gunk so we shall see! 

GO! 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Here’s the YW from off the top. Definitely clear . Mixed with filtered water then the same AP and incubating covered with sample 1. 

Pure YW already almost filling container!



 

 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Conclusion in this case then that the yeast population in the water column is more abundant or more active than in the sludge?  Seems to look that way.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

There are still only a couple bubbles in the sludge mixture. I took the overflowing bubbling abundance of YW levain made from the water column and it will be waffles come morning as I had no bake planned. 

Judging from this admittedly limited but irrefutable evidence the sludge has no value as far as yeast growth. I am glad it doesn’t seem to have adverse effects , in that my YW for many years had a substantial layer undisturbed in the bottom of the container but it doesn’t add anything either as far as I can see for growth potential. 

Hope this helps with the general info. Give yours a try and post back. c

JonJ's picture
JonJ

So, I had this jar of malt yeast water (MYW ) that has been sitting in the fridge unfed for at least a month and half. I was going to discontinue it, to be honest, as I prefer my apple and raisin variants. This is what it looked like, you can clearly see that MYW gets a good thick sediment layer at the bottom:

Today, I carefully removed the jar from the fridge and siphoned off the top (took one for the team, nothing like a mouth full of malt syrup solution) so that I was just left with a small amount of sediment and a thin layer above it. I took 20g of this sediment and 20g of the top part that was siphoned them off and put them separately into identical jars:

To each jar was added 30g of water and 60g of bread flour:

After 4 hours at around 26°C this is what they looked like:

Clearly then, for this case, the sediment at the bottom is the component that is most capable of leavening flour. Even though I hate the expression if there was one chance to use it it would be now, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water!"

To be fair this yeast water in the fridge hadn't been fed for a long time, so you may get a different result if you'd fed recently, or stirred it all up recently. And the fact that there aren't fruit pieces with this kind of YW means that it is possible to not disturb the jar too much and makes it easier to siphon off the top. I feed it 1:10 with a jar of 'plain malt' syrup (barley).

BTW,  the malt syrup label lists parahydrobenzoates as preservatives (not parahydroxybenzoates, I checked). Clearly not a problem for the yeast here.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Indeed that sediment has rising power!!! Wow! So far we have data that proves everyone has completely different YW and that we can’t draw any conclusions except try it and see 😂🤦‍♀️😊. Thank you Jon!! 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Will qualify that by saying that, like Jon, this YW had not been refreshed for 2-3 weeks and was taken directly from the refrigerator.

I carefully pulled 25g of water from the top of the jar using a turkey baster.  I then poured all the YW out until only the sediment remained at the bottom of the jar.  Some of the sediment poured out, but a decent amount stuck to the jar.  I then added 30g of spring water and swirled/shook vigorously to remove the sediment.  The sediment released and then flocced together.  For me, that's a good indication of bacterial exopolymer.  I then poured out 25g of the sediment/spring water mixture into a separate pinch bowl.  Each bowl got 25g of bread flour and fermented overnight at 76 deg F.  #1 = YW only.  #2 = sediment/spring water. 

After 9 hours, the sediment was nice and bubbly and actually right at its peak.  The YW only had barely started to rise, but there was activity there.  I put the YW ony back into fermentation to see if it continues to rise. 

Checked the sediment levain and there it was...  yogurt and vinegar!  In my most recent bake using this YW, I made a whole grain levain and for the first time ended up with a strong vinegar/acetic acid aroma instead of my typical more sour/fruity aroma.  The acetic/vinegar smell was noticeably there again with this white flour levain. So, I refreshed it and will see if I can perpetuate it.  It's uniquely different than my current white flour starter, which is more of a fruity, banana sour type smell.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Both of you had active sediment much more so than the YW . My YW grew very rapidly and had reached a large bubbly growth in just a couple hours. The sediment took longer but only by a couple more hours . The other big difference is fragrance. I have never had anything but a very mild fresh odor. I really wouldn’t call it fruity except when I used bananas.That one smelled of banana. 

In looking at your YW with the floating raisins it’s much cloudier than mine . Mine is a light very clear amber. Also there was no clumping when I mixed the sediment with filtered water it immediately mixed into a light milk mixture. In thinking about this I believe as you say it’s the age difference making a significant impact. 

I am glad we did this . I am going to continue discarding the sediment each refresh as I love what I have …. Whatever it is 😊. We can revisit this as more discoveries are made. c

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Was your YW recently fed when you did the comparison?

I have an idea that in fresh yeast water that is bubbling live cells would go up, since they are producing gas, while dead cells would stay on the bottom. While in a quiet YW with not much fermentation going on all cells would be on the bottom.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Fed about a week before. I think your conclusion is correct. More everything in the bottom as time goes by. After months would be interesting to see. I guess I will set aside my YW in two containers and leave one alone for all of March and April as I will be vacationing for that period and no baking! Perfect timing. 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Think you've got something special there, Troy, definitely worth trying to culture it.

Did you read the interesting discussion in the FLAS thread about making a liquid sourdough starter? This one: https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/69900/how-i-make-sourwort#comment-503809

Think you've already got something similar to a liquid SD culture, although yours has more acetic than lactic flavours!

-Jon

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

It's producing a very thick, very stable starter at a 1:1:1 feeding with bread flour.  Peaks in about 5 hours, but is still holding the peak after 12 hours.  It doesn't drop...

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

I read about this recently in a comment from Debra Wink by way of Dan:

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/438531#comment-438531

➤ Too much dead yeast (with its glutathione) will do strange things to your dough at mixing time. So watch that you don’t let cells pile up too thickly as white sediment on the bottom. Refrigerate before it reaches that point; or transfer a bit to a fresh batch of raisinwater to refresh and buy a little more time; and/or take care to decant the cloudy liquid from the top for your preferments. Failing that, dough issues seem to resolve somewhat with an extra fold or two, and longer fermentation time.  – Debra Wink

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

Which is what I have always done even when I was allowing the sediment to build up in the previous years when I thought the sediment had value. I never actively stirred it in and I never had a “ sour” YW bread. Luck definitely played a part! 

Thank you for remembering this post and including it here. Debra is an amazing source of information!!! 

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

Hello, friends.

 I am thinking of starting yet another yeast culture. I have a couple of basic questions first.

Let's start with the yeast sources I have on hand. I have some dried apricots and raisins in the cupboard. Both dried fruits have been there for a while. I want to say a year or less? Does the age of the dried fruit matter?

 Next, talk to me about fresh fruit. My wife just told me I can have the cherries she brought for this week's work snack (Not sweet enough.) Why is it easier to collect yeast from dried fruit than from fresh? 

 Lastly, in a short few weeks, I will have access to as many fresh mulberries as I can carry. I am thinking, that I could make some uber local yeast water and start a new craze! We all have heard of San Fransisco sourdough bread. I propose Greenwich Village yeast water bread! Back to fresh versus dry, would the experienced yeast harvesters here, use the fresh mulberries? Alternately, go through the trouble of drying them? Thanks for your help. By the way, during the early days of the Farmhouse bread community bake, my attempt at making yeast water failed. I have until now, never revisited. 

Edited to add, what do you think about harvesting from wild Ginko Biloba? Would the anti-inflammatory, and other medicinal qualities inhibit yeast growth? 

Cordially,

Will F.

 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

I found the thread created by RonRay very helpful!  It was posted by JonJ a few days ago in this thread but I have re-copied it here.  He touches on the type of fruit a bit. 
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23441/yeast-water-amp-other-wee-beastie-bubbles-no-math

I also found this thread interesting...
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23676/fruitfed-yeast-adventuremadness

MTloaf's picture
MTloaf

It prompted me to start another RYW now that I understand the methods and maintenance better. I have floaters and bubbles in the jar after five days and plans for bread soon.

I like alternative music so why not alt-sourdough especialy since that seems to be a thing around here lately.

Don

JonJ's picture
JonJ

When I read through the Ron Ray treasure trove I'm pretty sure one key takeaway was that it is possible to convert one yeast culture to another. In my case I have 3: apple, malt and raisin. But they were all started from an active raisin yeast water culture.

Most fruit and veg don't bring their flavour through to the final bread, but I believe that banana and strawberries are exceptions (maybe mulberries too!), I've just never tried them.

So, you could start with raisins and then move on to mulberries or ginko. Raisins are a good source which is why they are popular, if I look at mine I can see a dried whitish powder on some of the raisins, presumably that is dried yeast.

Most of the time you can't see that, especially if you have oiled raisins though. So it helps to get some sort of dried fruit where you can see the sheen of yeast.

And, just thinking aloud, if you have access to as many mulberries as you can get, then why not dry them for later use? Sounds messy, but can you just imagine the muffins. Or mulberry jam.

JonJ's picture
JonJ

I bet it'll take you 10 minutes to pop some apricots in a jar of water and another jar for the raisins. You might know in 5 days what works best if you do it now!

The Roadside Pie King's picture
The Roadside Pi...

I have imagined that many times over the years. I am just not set up to where I could make that happen. A few for some yeast water? Oh yes, very doable. I forgot, besides the Ginko berries and mulberries there are also a couple of crab apple trees! Thanks for your reply.

 

KIndly,

 Will F.

 

Abe's picture
Abe

Yeast water is very similar to brewing alcohol albeit with a lot less sugar. When we make alcohol we want the alcohol (of course). When we make Yeast Water we're harvesting the yeast. However the process is the same. Or in other words - two ends of the same process. One can wash yeasts from brewed alcohol to use again. Perhaps we can learn some of the same principles for Yeast Water. Or perhaps this is over thinking Yeast Water. It's interesting all the same and i'm sure we can learn something from it. Here is a good video explaining the process....

https://youtu.be/E6e7cmLlcw0

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

The interesting part for me was the mutation comment. As others have said here, the YW can and will change over time.  Maybe what I’ve experienced is just a natural cycle.  It just took a long time to get to this point.  Although, my practice of shaking up and transferring the sludge to the refresh wasn’t a good idea and probably didn’t help matters.

Still think I have LABs though…. Will see how the new YW progress.

JonJ's picture
JonJ

Great vid, but I did cringe a bit at the 'mutation comment'. More likely what is going on is selection for the fittest organisms for the environment, which species of yeast or bacteria are more suited and which individuals of those species are most suited. Survival of the fittest. Sure there will be some mutation eventually, but isn't as much of a driver as the video seems to imply, nor is it all that common.

Abe's picture
Abe

He's made a similar comment about sourdough which I disagree with. He seems to think that through mutation one would have to make a new sourdough every so often (if I remember correctly). Thought i'd recommend this video as a technique for re-using yeasts and washing them off the dead yeast cells. 

Abe's picture
Abe

I wonder if that might be causing the strange aromas. 

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

There was palm/sunflower oil on the raisins.  Just to clarify, the YW did not have an off aroma.  It smelled like it always did.  Nothing sour detected.  It was only after I made a levain did the sour smells come through.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Do we perpetuate the sludge in the bottom of the jar or the clear liquid at the top?

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

The sludge will eventually grow or if it’s old enough it will grow sooner. The clear grows sooner in my experience. It’s all up in for grabs after this last wxperiment

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Dan,

This thread kind of went in a myriad of directions.  I think based on everything I read the standard practice is to pull it off the top, especially if recently fed as the bubbles will naturally stir things up.  My particular case was different in that I was trying to find the source of the LAB’s, which appear to be on the bottom.  That said, it looks like the bottom sludge may have more active biomass if it’s been refrigerated for an extended period and everything has settled out.  There’s just more “stuff” besides yeast that you may be pulling up with it.

Going forward, I will just be pulling off the top.  I discarded the old honey YW jar (made a SD culture with the bottom sludge first) and started a new RYW without adding the honey.

Cheers!

Troy

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I like the idea of decanting the top.

” Too much dead yeast (with its glutathione) will do strange things to your dough at mixing time. So watch that you don’t let cells pile up too thickly as white sediment on the bottom.” Glutathione makes a dough super extensible, which is not a characteristic that I generally want. Baguettes may be my only known exception. In the past I have used Nutritional Yeast (which is glutathione) and the resulting dough was extremely extensible, which made rolling out the dough easier.