The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Tangzhong Temperature

albacore's picture
albacore

Tangzhong Temperature

Here is an interesting TFL post on making and using Tangzhong with a bit of history included. It is interesting to note that originally the cooking temperature of the Tangzhong was specifically 65C - the magic mashing temperature for beer production and of course no coincidence.

Indeed the original title of the Bread Doctor book was "65C Bread Doctor"

I think the 65C rule is now widely disregarded and possibly not known to many, so I guess it still works even if you go higher, perhaps without producing as much sweetness.

 

Lance

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Thanks.  I just now bookmarked that post.

tttt1010's picture
tttt1010

Is there a reason why recipes dont use more Tangzhong/water roux? As in, if I want to make a baguette, why not use as much flour as possible such that all of its water comes from the tangzhong?

happycat's picture
happycat

Gluten

Benito's picture
Benito

I have to admit that I haven’t been measuring temperature when I prefer a Tangzhong for my milk breads.  I will do so next time and see what temperature it reaches at the point that I typically take it off the heat.

Abe's picture
Abe

If one heats it up till it gels, and no more, it should be at the correct temperature whatever that is! So even when not measuring if one follows this principle it should work out at whatever temperature its supposed to be. Tangzhong is a roux and it will have a consistency different to a "scalded" flour at 65°C but will share many of the properties wanted in these methods. They also differ in water to flour ratio. Don't forget milk and water tangzhongs may differ because milk has fat and sugar in it. 

happycat's picture
happycat

I thought 65c in mashing was too hot for yeast and lactobacillus but hot enough to encourage amylase to break starches into sugars. I thought the implication was that using such a temperature (and not going higher, which would denature the amylase) would encourage that sweetening effect in the roux. I have no idea if it would happen fast enough. However, I thought a tangzhong was loading starches up with moisture to preserve hydration and allow higher hudration... so encouraging amylase to break starches down into sugars seems like it would be counter productive. Dunno.

Abe's picture
Abe

Was approaching it from another angle. Could very well be it gels at 65°C (for example) in which case it's done when it gels. Tangzhong encourages a softer crumb and allows for a dough to take higher hydration. Instead of thinking about how how much one should heat up a tangzhong, i.e. what temperature, one simply heats up a tangzhong and it's done when it gels - whatever temperature that happens it'll be the correct temperature. But when one does a scald one heats the the water to a certain temperature and pours it over the flour. In this case knowledge of how hot the water should be comes into play. So with tangzhong one can eyeball it but for a scald it needs to be a bit more measured. Also in many scald recipes one typically scalds a higher percentage of flour but with a tangzhong it's a small percentage. 

happycat's picture
happycat

Sure, I got that. I was riffing. Blame ADHD :)

Abe's picture
Abe

Brewing, baking, malting. I'm confident you're the last person to have ADHD :)

Although it's good to chat like this. Talking it over actually makes it clearer and i'll approach a scald and tangzhong differently. With a scald i think i'll need to be more accurate and that'll mean investing in some kind of temperature control apparatus. And with tangzhong be very careful to take off the heat as soon as it gels and not to overdo it. 

albacore's picture
albacore

When I made the tangzhong recently for Benny's 50% WW loaf, I heated the flour/milk paste to 65C on the hob with stirring and then took it off the heat.

It had thickened noticeably to the thickness of a thin white sauce, but wasn't "thick".

When I tasted it after cooling it had a definite sweetness. I guess you could enhance the effect by maintaining the 65C temp for a while, but this didn't seem to be part of the original procedure.

I imagine there are still active enzymes in a tangzhong made this way, but probably not in one that has been heated to boiling.

 

Lance

happycat's picture
happycat

Sweetness might also come from the heated milk

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for only heating until gelling has occured is to avoid loosing too much moisture as steam.  If you weigh the mixture before and after heating, you will notice a weight loss.  The longer it cooks, the more it looses. A decrease in moisture will be noticeable, especially if it comes to a boil.  This can throw off the hydration of the dough consideraby.  

happycat's picture
happycat

Great point! I was actually worried about scalding toasted buckwheat that was still hot brcause so much steam came up as I poured. I measured the weight after and sure eniugh it was too light and I had to add more water.

Benito's picture
Benito

Although I’ve never measured the temperature, I’ve always used a medium heat and been patient for the tangzhong to become a gel.  I’ve never heated it to anywhere near boiling.  I just periodically stir it and once it becomes a thick gel take it off the heat.  Perhaps it isn’t necessary to measure the temperature at all?  Anyhow, next time I make it I will monitor its temperature and see at what point it gels vs the temperature.

Benny

Abe's picture
Abe

And touching on what Mini said... The usual tangzhong method is 5% from the total flour and 5x it's weight in water (which I take from the total water and adjust later). However it will lose weight and try as you might it'll very difficult to use all what's left in the final dough. There'll always be a lot that sticks to the pan, utensils etc. So make extra allowing for the loss and use however much is called for. The final dough from a converted recipe will now feel less hydrated which isn't an issue. I just add extra water till the dough feels right. 

JonJ's picture
JonJ

I prefer to make it in the microwave as less is lost sticking to the pot, as you say. For some of my recipes, I have notes for when I repeat that say how many seconds were needed before 65°C was reached.

Benito's picture
Benito

I prepared a Tangzhong this evening in preparation for a bake tomorrow, it will be refrigerated overnight.  Anyhow, preparing it in my usual fashion stirring it constantly over a medium heat when it felt done, nicely gelatinized, I took it off the heat and immediately took the temperature.  It was 150ºF or 65.6ºC.  So it seems to me if done over only a moderate temperature and keeping a close eye on it, when it gelatinizes it is at the right temperature.  I suppose if you have it on much higher temperature you run a risk of pushing it well past that temperature, but at a moderate heat the change from watery/milky batter to gelatinized Tangzhong is easily identified without measuring the temperature.

Benny

a.peabody's picture
a.peabody

There seems to be a lot of confusion on the internet about what has come to be known (in English) as 'tangzhong', in particular about its history.

A history of 'tangzhong':

- There is a method of making bread in which one applies water and heat to the flour/meal/grain used in the bread before mixing the dough. I'm going to call this method scalded flour/pre-gelatinised starch.

- As wonderfully explained in the previous thread, scalding grains for bread-making is traditional and standard in various parts of Europe. I would be unsurprised to find that this is so in other parts of the world where the staple is bread.

- Scalding flour is a known technique in traditional Chinese (northern) home cooking. At least through to the early 20th century and likely earlier, but I have no evidence on hand for the latter. This is a common 'secret' to soft and long-lasting steamed buns and flatbreads that are pliable after cooling.

- Circa year 2000, some industrial bread producers/large-scale bakeries in Japan submit patent applications on bread-making using a scalded flour method. I'm not sure when this type of bread comes to occupy a significant market share in Japan or when/how it spread. But the point is that in Japan scalded flour bread-making began with commercial production. 

- And specifically, the production of white bread. Soft, fluffy, bouncy white bread. This is probably what distinguishes East Asian scalded flour practices from its counterparts.

- In 2004, a book was published in Taiwan titled 65C湯種麵包, literally '65C Water Roux Bread', by Yvonne Chen. This book is generally credited for popularising the usage of pre-gelatinised starch in home bread baking. I've roughly translated two sections of the introduction.

1. An account of the origins of 'tangzhong' (pg. 12):

"「湯種」is a Japanese word meaning a hot or warm type of dough.「湯」contains the meaning of boiled water, hot water, bathing in hot springs.「種」suggests the meaning of seeds, type of materials, or ingredients. Used in the language of baking, the meaning is to add water to flour and heat it on the stove, causing the starch of undergo the process of gelatinisation. Alternately, flour can be added to different temperatures of hot water, thus causing the mixture of gelatinise. This gelatinised flour paste is called「湯種」.

Bread made by adding this paste to the other ingredients used in the bread, mixing, fermenting, shaping, and baking is called water roux bread. The biggest difference between water roux bread and other types of bread is that the gelatinised starch in water roux bread increases the capacity of the bread dough to absorb and hold onto water. Therefore, the crumb of the bread will be both soft and supple with tender bounciness, and stale more slowly, matching the tastes of modern people. The emergence of water roux bread shows that no matter how traditional the formula or product, there remains room for novelty and change."

At this point the author makes a note in parentheses about where she obtained this information, but the sentence uses some terms I don't understand so I won't attempt to translate.

2. A description of the tradition of scalded flour doughs in Chinese home cooking (pg. 4-5):

"「湯種」bread originates from the earliest traditional flour-based staple foods found in the everyday home cooking of our country. These flour-based staple foods, if not including those that are fermented, can be divided into two main types: cold water doughs and hot water doughs. The so-called cold water doughs include various noodles, boiled dumplings etc. wherein water is directly added to flour to form a dough. In comparison hot water doughs include steamed dumplings, various pan-baked flatbreads etc. The main reason to employ a scalded flour dough is for a softer and suppler mouthfeel and greater elasticity in the final product in comparison to what can be achieved with a cold water dough. If traditional steamed dumplings and flatbreads are made without utilising the scalded flour method, the texture will be hard and tough, not easily chewed or digested. If part of the flour is first scalded with hot water, the starch in the flour will be heated and swell up, in the process absorbing large amounts of water. Mixing this gelatinised flour paste into the rest of your dough is equivalent to increasing the hydration of your formula, causing the final product to be more soft and supple. In addition, after machine kneading the gelatinised starch will become stickier and more elastic.

The Japanese were the first to use this scalded flour method in bread production. Only three years ago [in 2004] was「湯種」bread officially introduced. It now is gradually becoming very popular in Taiwan."

Yvonne Chen's presentation of the water roux method has become so popular with bakers all over the world. Almost bizarrely influential. But as information travels, parts of the story get lost. The above is an attempt to clarify what the text does claim and does not claim (of course, this doesn't mean that what is claimed is necessarily accurate).

There is one thing I will say is not accurate. It is not so that 'tangzhong is Chinese and yudane is Japanese', as many intros to water roux bread recipes state. At least, it is not correct insofar as in English usage 'tangzhong' generally refers to mixing flour with several times its weight in water and cooking until the mixture gels, and 'yudane' refers to mixing flour with an equal part of hot water to produce a dough ball.

I hope this not-so-brief history of tangzhong has been helpful.

 

A note about language, not bread:

Although 'tangzhong' has already solidified its place in the lexicon, I really wish it had not. The two characters 湯種 in that order represents a Japanese noun. In Japanese it would be pronounced...actually I'm not sure. I've seen both yu-da-ne and yu-ko-ne. Perhaps friends proficient in Japanese can comment. In any case it would not be 'tangzhong', and if one were to describe a scalded flour dough/method in Chinese one would not say 湯種 but 燙麵 (Cantonese 'tong min', Mandarin 'tang mian'). 燙 literally meaning scald, and 麵 meaning flour.