The Fresh Loaf

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Maintaining stiff starter

Rodolfo Castilho's picture
Rodolfo Castilho

Maintaining stiff starter

Hello, bakers! I’m from Brazil and most of the year it’s hot in here so I’ve begun feeding my starter 1:8:10 (80% hydration ) so I could feed it just once a day. Always a seed of 5g, 40g water and 50g WW flour. I want to change it to 1:3:5 (60% hydration) in order to use less flour and continue with 24h feedings. Forgot to say all this happening at room temp. 

My point is: I’m using a stiff starter JUST for the purpose of less waste maintaining it (although I save the discard) and only one feeding for the fact that a more hydrated starter in my climate here triples in 8-10 hours if fed 1:10:10 for example. My idea is to feed it 100% hydration before a bake then let it peaks and use it in the dough. I’ve read that stiff starter can be too sour, then I read the opposite, which was that bakers in pre-refrigeration France kept stiff starter so it wouldn’t be too sour, anyways, I really don’t know! 

Do you guys think that, since it’s just for the maintenance (for baking I’ll be feeding 100%) and I’m feeding it every 24 hours, my bread will be too different than it would with regular 100% hydration feedings? It’s just so easy this way. Last question: I just created a white starter (bread origin wheat white flour from the Brazilian mill Irati, visited by Michel Suas!) to make less sour soft bread, do you think applying the same stiff maintenance for it would do the opposite effect of sourness? 

I’ll be really grateful for some answers and thoughts! 

phaz's picture
phaz

Just be consistent. Enjoy!

run4bread's picture
run4bread

I second the opinion above, be consistent.  There's nothing wrong with feeding daily. What matters for avoiding sour  is to feed your starter when it's mature, not over mature. When it's past its peak is when the sour begins to dominate. On warmer days, use less seed (as you've probably found). 

A stiff starter demonstrates maturity easily. The starter forms a dome when mature. When the bubbles begin popping and the dome begins to deflate, it's past peak maturity. So use it or feed it when the dome is a smooth arc. If it's gone flat, feed at least twice before using it to ensure the starter gets back in balance. 

Rodolfo Castilho's picture
Rodolfo Castilho

I’ll pay attention to this detail! Thank you so much! Quick question that came to my mind: my WW starter was peaking in 10 hours fed 1:10:10 which is pretty active and fast. But, man, when I use its seed for making a white starter it double or triple in 10 h or more fed 1:3:3. Isn’t it too sluggish? In comparison to the first at least…

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That is one with perhaps   5g starter with 20g water ( or less) and 50g whole wheat?  

While keeping your regular maintenance starter,  Play with a starter reducing the water amount so that the fed starter just holds together anywhere from dry/moist crumbs pressed together to  rubber like ball.  Flour dust the outside and See how long it takes to slump and crack open turning the inside soft and fermented smelling like a ripe starter should. A firm starter takes longer to ferment than an 80% hydrated starter.  You might get several days before having to feed it again. 

One way to feed is to measure 5g starter, add 10g water and then pinch in flour adding until it just barely holds together when pressed tightly between the palms of your hands.  If it forms in seconds, pinch in more flour.  Repeat if you can.  Then weigh it to figure the amount of flour added and to figure hydration.  

Mini

Rodolfo Castilho's picture
Rodolfo Castilho

Hey, mini! I’m a new user here but I’ve been reading forums for a while and you are always in them! Nice talking to you!

So, I’ve just made now a stiff WW starter, 5g seed, 25g flour and 12,5 water. I’ll observe and see how it goes. As I answered above, it’s pretty warm these days in São Paulo, and my WW starter is super active (peaks in 10h 1:10:10) but my white starter is taking so long to peak even fed 1:2:2.  
I want to make a stiff starter the same way I did with de whole grain but it’s weak in 100% hydration so I’m not sure how to proceed 😭😭

Rodolfo Castilho's picture
Rodolfo Castilho

I don’t know if I should say “you are always in those” or “them”😂

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

maybe too much.  

Whole wheat (as previously mentioned) will speed up fermentation. Another way to slow down the starter (there is a list somewhere) is to feed it plain wheat flour, that which has been sifted.  When the levain or sponge is made, addition of whole wheat should speed it up again.  Whole wheat is a great way to get a wild starter going but after the starter gets greedy with attention and feeding, switching to AP will give you more control and a break as it feeds slower.  It should still have power to raise bread dough.

 Reducing water is another way.  

Without refrigeration in warm environments, sometimes salt is added to the starter.  Look up "salt in starter" for more info. The starter will rise the highest when the feeding is closest to ideal dough hydration for that flour and its gluten content. (There are always exceptions.)

phaz's picture
phaz

Weak in 100% - different flours will react differently with different levels of water. Since looking for a lever of rise, use less water. Enjoy!

gavinc's picture
gavinc

This Hamelman's maintenance regimen from the man himself:
Starter maintenance | The Fresh Loaf

I've been using his 85% stiff rye sourdough for about 18 months now. 47-gram total weight and fed once a day and lives on the counter. The 20-gram a day stone ground rye cost about 6 cents AUD.

Cheers,

Gavin

Rodolfo Castilho's picture
Rodolfo Castilho

Thanks!

run4bread's picture
run4bread

Hi, Gavin, thanks for bringing this back! Much appreciated. I'll give it a try, see if it works for me. I bake wheat flour breads almost weekly (a lot of my baking is a honey oat wheat sandwich bread for the local food bank). Otherwise I love rye and I'd have no qualms. 

-Paula 

 

gavinc's picture
gavinc

I convert some of the ripe rye sour to a wheat based liquid levain in two feeds over 24 hours. Strongest levains I ever had.

Cheers,

Gavin

happycat's picture
happycat

I notice Hamelman says he throws his discard into compost daily. I'd urge anyone considering that pathway to multiply their anticipated daily discard by 365 days in the year and consider the annual food value in kilograms that could otherwise have been used to feed someone.

It's also worth considering the fossil fuels and filtered fresh water used to prepare, plant, process, harvest, mill, package and transport each kg of flour.

Rock's picture
Rock

I think this is important information to bring up, happycat. Thank you.

Dave

Dave Cee's picture
Dave Cee

at 75% hydration, in the refrigerator and prep it for my (infrequent) bakes a few days ahead. Since I use 75% hydration in my go-to SD recipe this makes it easy to scale up or down. And I also like any increase is sour-ness as an added benefit. As mentioned above, a stiff starter is easier for me to monitor than a traditional more liquid starter. Best wishes. Dave

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Rodolfo, what would you estimate your average room temperature? I have not had luck feeding a starter every 24hr. Although some claim it works well for them. Temperature is of outmost importance when it comes to fermentation.

A stiff starter will increase the fermentation duration of your daily fed starter. Would you consider refrigerating your starter and feeding weekly or maybe more often? WW will speed up starter fermentation drastically. If once a day feedings are utilized, WW may not be your best choice.

When it comes to sour tasting sourdough bread, most bakers give tremendous importance to the acidity or their stater. I am not one of them. If you don’t want a sour tasting sourdough, try using a much higher percentage of prefermented flour in your starter. The idea is that a dough that ferments faster (at moderate temperatures) will not have enough time to build a high acid content. On the other hand if a tiny amount of prefermented flour (PFF) is used the dough fermentation time will increased a great deal. During this extended time of fermentation the LAB will produce more acids.

Explanation -
Starter and bread doughs are pretty much the same. If you allow your starter to over-ferment it will be super sour. The same holds true for bread dough. The most sour tasting SD bread is made by pushing the fermentation to it’s limits.

It has been my experience that a sweet (non-sour) starter can produce extremely sour tasting bread if the right temperature and extended fermentation times are employed.

I don’t have experience with non-sour SD breads (I’m a sour freak), but I bet it will work the same in the other direction.

IF you are feeding your starter at a warm room temp every 24hr, I think your starter will be highly acidic. It is probably over-feremented.

I look forward to hearing the opinions of others…
I am an eternal student.

Danny

Abe's picture
Abe

I would think at below 50% hydration and no more than 20% starter once a day would be enough for maintenance. Catching it at its peak or just when the dome begins to flatten is a good guide for baking. But for maintenance I firmly believe there would be enough food for a once a day feed at room temperature. The more I bake the more I believe there's flexibility. Indeed I once used a Hamelman levain build hours after it peaked. 125% hydration and room temperature too and it made a lovely loaf. It was only when homes had means of refrigeration did starters evolve to be high hydration. Before that they would keep a very stiff starter and I wouldn't have thought they were too pedantic in the way we are today. High hydration doughs with large air pockets are also a recent phenomenon. They would have baked a loaf that was filling and a meal in itself. Soup and bread or bread and cheese. Starter would have more than likely been a bit of dough from the previous bake and they baked daily.