The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Turning out from bannetons

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Turning out from bannetons

I've had several encouraging successes following the advice I received here a few weeks ago - particularly from Benny and Mariana. Thanks again, folks :-)

One area where I still have difficulty, though, is in successfully turning my proofed dough out onto Challenger parchment paper and then lifting it quickly onto/into my Challenger pan before baking.

I'm usually proofing overnight in Sugus House bannetons.

I sprinkle the cloth liner with either rice or tapioca flour.

But my dough still tends to flop onto the flat surface and spread.

Should I:

  1. try less hydration to help the dough keep its shape better?
  2. use more flour to stop the dough sticking to the cloth and so help it drop from the banneton?
  3. be prepared to turn the banneton upside down with greater speed so as not to have the dough lose its shape?
  4. something else?

Thanks in advance for anyone who has experience/answers to this!

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Since you are using a parchment paper, have you tried putting the parchment paper on a cookie sheet, inverting the cookie sheet and parchment paper onto the banneton, then turning the whole assembly so the dough just falls gradually out of the banneton, then remove the banneton, and use the cookie sheet as a peel to launch the parchment onto the challenger?  I so something similar with a super peel to load onto a stone. 

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks, Barry. I have tried that, Yes :-)

I still find that - unless I risk a really really quick flip - the lack of shape in my dough (I wonder if that's the real problem here) causes the dough to 'expand' when it leaves the banneton :-)

…turning the whole assembly so the dough just falls gradually out of the banneton…

 But I'm definitely going to experiment with the peel model :-)

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Dough losing shape is the problem. It shouldn't lose shape significantly. Your dough is either overproofed or too wet, or gluten is not developed well, or shaping wasn't done well.

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks, Ilya.

I suspected as much. My first thought was the repeat the recipe and use 10-25 mL less water.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Welcome back, Mark.

It sounds like you're in the same boat I was in before I figured out the main reason for and definition of shaping.  I was using the sides of my dutch oven as a crutch to make up for a poor gluten-cloak and a not-dry-enough surface.

"Shaping" is about more than the shape. 

One purpose of shaping is to create a strong "gluten cloak" that holds the dough mass.  In other words, it's creating a tight "skin" on the dough that acts like a tight sack. 

By scooching (pulling, scraping)  the dough ball across the counter-top, you are pulling that skin tighter and tucking the excess into the seam at the bottom. That pulling of the top skin makes the gluten tighter, "builds tension" in the skin, and makes it better able to hold up the dough so it does not flatten out.

"Building surface tension" is how Sune describes it in his video.

(As Ilya mentions above, and barry described on another thread, https://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/489505#comment-489505  the gluten needs created/developed in the first place. So it really starts with the kneading or stretch-and-folds during bulk ferment, or however you develop the gluten.)

In my case, a dutch oven that matches the dough size hid the effect of a poor gluten cloak/skin. When a baker uses a flat open baking surface, then the shaping effect  (skin or cloak effect) is  seen.

The second main way to get a tight skin that holds the dough together is to dry it a bit when proofing in a banneton or on a couche.  The banneton can be lined with cloth, or unlined. But it needs to be dusted a bit with flour (usually 50:50 rice/AP flour).  100% rice flour may not dry it as well as the 50/50 mix. Rice flour absorbs slower than wheat flour, afaik. But the rice is better at non-stick. So the 50/50 combo of rice flour and wheat flour has a double-action effect, does two things at once.

The banneton/cloth/flour helps "wick away" moisture from the skin during final proof, which dries it out some, so that the skin is easier to score, and so that the loaf doesn't spread out too much on a flat baking surface.

The banneton also needs to be made with porous material so that air/moisture can get through. Cane, wicker, wood-pulp, etc. will work, but solid material like plastic, glass and metal will not work as a banneton. (I didn't follow the link to your banneton. But I just mention this for future readers.)

In my experience, at least in my formulas, both the "tight gluten skin" effect, and the "dry skin" effect need to be used.

Most bakers baked on flat (stone) surfaces before dutch ovens became popular. The dutch oven sort of made me sloppy, and late to learn how to properly shape.

Here are 3 good videos to help understand and how to do:

Shaping, gluten cloak, from Zoe François of BreadIn5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIb8fC9BdWs

Food Geek's (Sune) How to shape dough:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxVSlizlt-s

More on shaping from Food Geek, the why. This might be the best of these three videos because he does a side by side test of three loaves that are identical except for shaping. One has no shaping, one has a final-shaping only, and one has a pre-shape, a rest, and a final shape. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvA6jJsr0HY

Good luck, and bon appétit.  

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Forgot he's done the shaping video, excellent demonstration.

Interestingly, he is supposed to release another one about shaping today, but seems like more about comparing different ways of shaping.

Edit: here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5feWvEh73s

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Dave,

Hello again; nice to hear from you. Much appreciated!

It sounds like you're in the same boat I was in… I was using the sides of my dutch oven as a crutch to make up for a poor gluten-cloak and a not-dry-enough surface.

I believe you're right. Yes. In this case, the sides of my banneton.

"Shaping" is about more than the shape.… … …

Yes! I really didn't do enough of that. In the Shaping paragraph of the recipe I included in my reply to Benny, it does give instructions which I obviously did not follow - certainly not the dragging part :-(

I was so pleased to have got the consistency that I had and been able to get the window pane test well and truly passed during bulk fermentation (using the new Challenger proofing box, BTW) coil folds, that I probably thought: "OK leave well alone. Don't risk deflation". That was a mistake, wasn't it.

In my case, a dutch oven that matches the dough size hid the effect of a poor gluten cloak/skin.

I can see exactly how it would do that.

When a baker uses a flat open baking surface, then the shaping effect  (skin or cloak effect) is  seen.

The silky skin? Yes. Makes sense.

The second main way to get a tight skin that holds the dough together is to dry it a bit when proofing in a banneton or on a couche.

In my case, I was really struck after putting it into the Challenger pan in the oven at how soaking wet the banneton liner was!

…But the rice is better at non-stick. So the 50/50 combo of rice flour and wheat flour has a double-action effect, does two things at once.…

I had not thought of that double-benefit, Dave. Thanks. I've added that to my procedure for next time. Tapioca was obviously a mistake. I literally had to peel the dough out of the banneton liner - like getting chewing gum off cloth.

… … …

Here are 3 good videos to help understand and how to do:

Thanks. 

Good luck, and bon appétit.  

:-)

As always - very grateful for your advice. Take care. Lots to put into practice here!

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

HI Mark,

Having had problems turning dough out of containers in the past and having recently invested in some (cane) bannetons, there are two possible problems you might be encountering (you seem to hint at this).

Release

The first problem is release of the dough from the banneton. You mention 'rice flour' which is something I use, both in a banneton and on pizza paddles and it does a fine job for both. However, you also mention 'tapioca flour' and, while I haven't tried this, it's not something that I would recommend and, further, it gives me pause when it comes to your 'rice flour'.

The reason is that tapioca 'flour' is quite a different beast in that it is probably better called tapioca starch. It is derived from a root (not a grain or seed) and is very, well, starchy. Other than in gluten-free products, it's main use that I am aware of is as a thickener - like corn starch, with a consistency to match. (Similar to icing/confectioners' sugar.)

If this is what you have, it's probably not ideal.

The reason the 'rice flour' is now suspect, too, is that rice flour comes in two types - one is the rice flour that is used in shortbread and the other is more 'rice starch'. The former is what I use and it is GRAINY, feeling like tiny ball bearings - far more so than regular wheat flour - and it is this property that works so well on the pizza peel and in the banneton. The latter is, like tapioca starch, the consistency of icing/confectioners' sugar and, again, not something I would use.

That said, I have never used either tapioca nor rice starch for this purpose so can't say for sure.

Additionally, I don't use lining cloths - I flour the banneton directly and it generally works well, so long as I flour rather generously. If you use 'proper' rice flour, it won't stick much to the bread so you can go pretty crazy with it.

What I do is, once the dough is in the banneton, gently pull the dough away from the edges and dust some extra flour down the sides. Just to be sure.

Spreading

I have had a lot of doughs spread far more than I would like - and I still sometimes do. What I have found is that there are a few factors in whether a dough spreads (excessively) or not.

1.) Hydration level.

There is no hard line here but the simple fact is that flours can only hold so much water. As a practical matter, the amount of hydration that you can achieve will increase as your skill does and some techniques can get you higher but there is always a limit.

The general line I have is that anything above 70% is 'high'. Most beginner guides and basic recipes will be closer of 60% but I started around 70% and go up and down from there.

2.) Flour type

This ties in with 1 - stronger flours tend to absorb more liquid, however flours with high starch damage will also absorb more liquid . . . initially.

Hard wheat needs force to mill the grain and this, naturally, damages the starch. A softer flour may also have high starch damage without the high protein content (this is the case with Indian maida and atta flours).

A little starch damage is good but the starch can release the water again and an apparently well developed dough can become 'wetter'.

What keeps it all working is properly developed gluten . . .

3.) Gluten development.

A sufficiently developed gluten network is one of the most important parts to obtaining a good shape because it physically holds it all together.

Insufficient gluten development is a key reason for spreading loaves.

Water is essential for forming gluten from flour in the first place so more water does help develop the gluten naturally but that process takes time, which is why manual gluten development (kneading, folds, slaps, etc . . .) are used.

4.) Proofing.

As above, the longer you leave a hydrated dough, the more the water will build the gluten network. However, there is a competing force, which is the yeast and the enzymes that break down the ingredients to feed the yeast. At the extreme, this process will convert nearly any mass fermenting dough into gloop.

This process is occuring the entire time a dough is fermenting, however it is also necessary to make the bread rise. In essence, you want to bake your bread when this process has almost rounded the bend to detrimental.

Leaving it too long is 'over-proofing' and, at this stage, the dough is now deteriorating as the consumption of the dough outbalances the raising power. Or at least that's how I understand it.

5.) Shaping.

This is often the final thing to get right and can make a big difference. Bannetons provide support and a final shape to the loaf while proofing but the process of shaping before placing it into the banneton is designed to give the dough enough surface tension to keep that shape.

Forming a good, tight, appropriate shape with a strong 'skin' is one of the big steps in getting bread that doesn't spread.

Suggestions

For the release, use lots of (granular) rice flour - when you rub it between your fingers, it should be noticeably coarser than wheat flour.

For the spreading, the following address each of the factors above:

1. Drop the hydration a bit - a good place is 60-65% - and push it up from there depending on how your flour reacts. and how well it accepts shapng.

2. Make sure you are using a decently-strong flour. As you are in the US, your 'all purpose' flour is generally as strong as our (Australian) bread flour but if you are following US recipes, they may assume you are using stronger flour of >13% and you may need to drop the hydration to compensate or . . .

3. Knead for longer. That means more time in the mixer, more time kneading and/or more folds. The 'slap and fold' technique is one I have found works well but find something that works for you. (Initial development via a mixer is convenient!)

4. Proof for a shorter time. Or, if your schedule is convenient, refrigerate the dough for a portion of time, which slows fermentation. You can bake straight from the fridge and this will help with avoiding spreading but isn't a cure for other issues.

5. Practice and pay attention to shaping. There's just no substitute for practice but drier doughs will be easier to shape than wetter doughs and stronger flours will be able to develop a better gluten structure than weaker flours and 'correct' development will give you a strong dough that is better able to be shaped and better able to retain that shape.

 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Interesting about rice starch - first time I got rice flour it was like you described, quite grainy. The second time I got a Thai rice flour from an Asian supermarket, and was surprised by how powdery it was. I assumed it was just more finely ground, but perhaps it's a different product. It works just as well for dusting the bannetons though (and I don't use it as a dry "lubricant" for loading, I have some semolina for that - which would be a good alternative for dusting too, except it falls off the side of the banneton too easily...).

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Dan - thanks so much for all of that. (BTW my best wishes for a difficult situation there in Sydney (as we have in the US atm) Take care :-)

Release

… … …

I shall definitely make sure I have the right flour - also as Ilya says. And for rice, the right kind of rice flour.

What I do is, once the dough is in the banneton, gently pull the dough away from the edges and dust some extra flour down the sides. Just to be sure.

And you can both:

  • get far enough down to get almost underneath the dough, and
  • avoid deflating the dough?

I am not so 'dextrous' as I would like, so might have to experiment a bit.

Spreading

I followed the recipe to the letter. But did wonder about decreasing the hydration just a little when I repeat this next time; fortunately the flour was also as directed… I am determined to get it right :-)

Insufficient gluten development is a key reason for spreading loaves.

I somehow thought that might be to blame. Per the recipe, I only did six sets of four coil folds. Maybe I should have kneaded (a lot?) more?

… In essence, you want to bake your bread when this process hasalmostrounded the bend to detrimental.…

I got what I was pretty sure was a good bulk fermentation; bubbles were beginning to form. I put it in the fridge overnight (covered) and it rose again. In total, I'd say to double the size of the worked dough. Although the recipe only suggests 30-50%.

Could I have over-proofed it?

…Bannetons provide support and a final shape to the loaf while proofing but the process of shapingbeforeplacing it into the banneton is designed to give the dough enough surface tension to keep that shape.

I now have a feeling (thanks to everyone's posts here) that that is where I went wrong.

But for fear of losing the air and deflating the dough before placing in the banneton.

Forming a good, tight, appropriate shape with a strong 'skin' is one of the big steps in getting bread that doesn't spread.

I think I must give that a try next time.

Suggestions

Thanks for those, Dan! All noted and ready to use next time.

 

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Hi Mark,

Recipe

First up, I've had a look at the recipe you are following and that is rather a high hydration - 91.8%, assuming the starter is at 100% (an equal mix of flour and water). Even with a rather stiff starter at, say 60% hydration, final hydraton will be around 87%.

Personally, I would try dropping that down to 75% by using only 85gm of water in the final dough and then adding more only if the dough seems unreasonably dry (it should be at least a little sticky). That's to get the measure of the recipe and how well it works for you with your ingredients, conditions and techniques.

Which brings me to the important - but not overly helpful - point: a recipe in a book that works well for the author might not work well for you. This forum is full of posts discussing how such and such recipe doesn't work as it's 'supposed to'.

Second, it is also a rather high percentage of whole wheat/wholemeal flour - about 40% of total flour (when including the flour in the starter as well). A good starting point when working with whole wheat/wholemeal flour is up to a quarter.

Of course, far higher ratios are possible and even 100% wholemeal sourdough loaves can be produced . . . it's just not that easy.

Whole wheat/wholemeal flour - an interlude

(Feel free to skip this dry section)

One of the reasons for the increased difficulty of making wholemeal bread is that wholemeal flour is massively variable. The chief difference between wholemeal and white is the inclusion of the bran. HOWEVER, different millers and different products (within the same mill) may vary significantly. Some will grind the whole grain while other will take white flour and then add in pure bran at some percentage. That bran may even be from a different wheat.

This is important as the particle size of the bran and the level of inclusion are large factors in its behavior in and impact on the final dough and bread. (For example, one flour might have a smaller number of larger-size bran particles while another may have a larger number of smaller sized particles - both may have the same percentage of 'bran' but the effect will be quite different, especially where water absorption is concerned.)

Whatever the case, bran contains protein but that protein does not form gluten. Whole wheat flour will therefore decrease the overall gluten forming potential in the final dough; the more bran, the more dilution of the gluten.

Bran (and therefore wholemeal flour) also absorbs liquid at a greater rate than plain white flour. This is why people might refer to wholemeal flour as 'thirsty'. Adding bran to white flour means that the bran is competing with the gluten in the white flour for the liquid so a higher hydration is usually called for to ensure there is sufficient liquid for adequate gluten formation. The level of extra absorption is one of the things that varies with the particular flour but a rule of thumb is to add up to 5% to the hydration and assess how that affects it.

It's worth noting that, while the 'sharp edges' of the bran do indeed physically damage gluten networks, this is not the only 'negative' effect of bran on loaf size. Soaking, therefore, while a good idea, only mitigates (partially) one of the impacts of bran on final loaf volume.

Pre-soaking wholemeal flour is also not the absolute best option as you are also pre-soaking the white flour portion of that flour along with it. This soaking of the white flour will increase its extensibility, however it does that by degrading the gluten network! If your wholemeal flour percentage is high, a significant portion of the gluten-forming potential is therefore being pre-soaked and the gluten thus degraded. Given total gluten levels are already diluted by the addition of the non-gluten forming bran, the soaking process will further weaken the final dough.

Again - this is one of the many things that makes wholemeal baking a challenge!

As an aside, it seems that the 'best' way to add 'wholemeal' to a dough is not to use wholemeal flour but to use white flour and then add in bran. This allows you to pre-soak the bran ONLY. It also allows you to partially develop the gluten with the white flour alone and then add in the pre-soaked bran for gentler mixing in as an inclusion later, the same way you might add in fruit or oats or whatever, folding them in after initial development of the main dough.

Process - shaping and flouring

The big note here is where you ask: "[can you] get far enough down to get almost underneath the dough, and avoid deflating the dough?".

First, I don't get quite that far down - it is more the sides of the dough, rather than underneath and the purpose is to ensure those sides are adequately floured as the curvature of most bannetons means that the flour has a tendency to slide down to the bottom. Additionally, when you flour your shaped dough on the bench just prior to putting it in the banneton, the top of the dough is likely adequately floured and this then is the bottom of the dough once placed in the banneton. What was the bottom of the dough on the bench becomes the top in the banneton and is easily dusted with flour once in. So, the part that is most likely to be the least floured is that sides.

Second, the dough should be relatively tightly shaped - either in boule or batard shape as appropriate - before placing in the banneton, as the recipe instructs. Crucially, the banneton is not there to shape the loaf but to maintain that shape while the loaf prooves and relaxes.

The way I view it is that all that dough development earlier on (kneading, stretching, folding, slapping, etc . . .) creates the available gluten 'resources' that you then use in the final shaping process to form the 'skin'.

Once you have a nice shape with adequate tension and place that into the banneton, you should generally be able to move it a little in order to apply extra flour. That said, whether you apply extra flour or not is not necessarily essential if you have generously floured the dough and the banneton already - it's just something that I noticed where, as above, that part of the dough was the most likely to be under-floured so a I do a little extra as insurance! The rice flour I use does stick to the dough or burn in the oven (like plain wheat flour) so I find being generous with it is just safer than risking any sticking later on.

Process - fermentation/proofing

If your dough has doubled in volume before shaping it may well have been over-proofed. Ignoring the properties discussed above, wholemeal flour will generally ferment quicker but rise less. This is one reason why the 30-50% of the recipe is as low as it is. The dough will also ferment further after the initial shaping (where you leave it on the bench for 30 mins) and then will ferment yet again in the banneton, even while in the fridge.

This last part is important and can catch some people out. Even if yeast becomes dormant at fridge temperatures, it takes some time for the dough mass to actually get down to that temperature once placed in the fridge! Even then, a small amount of fementation will occur, unless your fridge is colder than normal.

The other thing to note is that, depending on your fermentation container, it can be difficult to judge when dough has actually doubled. Due to volume of a ball-like shape being calculated on the cube of the radius, dough that looks doubled is likely to be far more than double the volume. That is one reason why straight-sided containers are an excellent idea for fementaton as the shape allows unambiguous measurement.

At any rate, with a bread like this, certainly err on the side of underproofing if you're unsure and then you can try pushing it a little longer.

Even after the bread is placed in the oven, the dough will continue to rise - this is the 'oven spring' and you want to leave some potential for that to achieve good volume. Yeast activity and thus the rate of rising will INCREASE as the yeast gets warmer, up to about 40c/100F and then decrease until it reaches ~55c/130F, when the yeast starts to die due to the heat. At about 60c/140F, the yeast is pretty much done.

Note, however, that these temperatures are for the inside of the dough and not the oven - as with refrigeration, it takes time for the dough to reach the appropriate temperature and, as a general rule, the yeast will die somewhere around 1/3 to 1/2 way through the baking, though this of course varies with baking temperature, dough size, baking vessel, oven type and so on.

As a guide to how long it takes the dough to increase in temperature, bread is 'done' when the internal (centre) temperature is ~90c/195F. Now consider that number in contrast to the times and temperatures in the recipe of 260c/500F for 40-45 minutes and you'll see that yeast activity will actually continue for quite some time once in the oven!

And, again, while the yeast is heating up, it is going into overdrive and thus producing gas (and rising) at a quicker pace while the existing gas is also increasing in volume as it heats up - that's a one-two punch for rising power!

All of which is to justify why it's better to underproof rather than risk over-proofing.

Also note that oven spring will happen regardless of the shape of the bread, provided the gluten development is sufficient to contain the expanding gas and there is enough moisture present to keep the outside of the dough malleable for long enough (hence steam/dutch oven). When a dough spreads out, it will still rise in the oven, assuming it is 'correctly' proofed, but that rise will be much more uniform, expanding outwards as well as upwards. One of the goals of a 'good' shaping is to encourage the bread to rise vertically and slashing the dough at the top also helps this.

Summary

  • Lower the hydration (try 75-80%)
  • Think of lowering the wholemeal percentage
  • Ferment/proof for a shorter period of time
  • Try to shape the dough a little more tightly

All these things will work together - lowering the hydration will create a more mangeable dough that shapes and handles better and takes stetch and folds better, which will again increase shaping potential. Lowering the wholemeal percentage will also increase gluten potential as well as slowing fermentation rate, both of which will help in shaping and avoiding over-proofing. Even then, be on the lookout for the level of proofing and stop short of where you have been, allowing plenty of energy for the yeast during the overnight final proof and for the oven spring.

And, of course, work on your shaping - shape more strongly. Shaping gently is great to preserve as much air as possible for a light bread but that has to be balanced with creating the proper strengh and 'skin'. Shaping very gently is wonderful for ciabatta and gives the signature open crumb but also a lower, flatter, more 'spread out' shape! For a high-rising sourdough boule, stronger shaping is necessary to create the required skin tension.

My advice here - based on what I have found for myself - is to err on the side of shaping more strongly and favour a good, tight skin oven preservation of the gas. As you get a feel for just how tight you can shape the dough when you focus on that, the next step is to try to achieve that same outcome while being gentler.

That's just practice but my advice is to shape strongly at first so you at least get a feel for how it CAN end up. Once I finally produced a really nicely shaped boule or batard (prior to placing in the banneton) I suddenly realised what was possible.

Best of luck!

Dan.

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks so much, Dan, for taking all the time and trouble you have to make these extremely helpful suggestions!

Recipe

First up, I've had a look at the recipe you are following and that is rather a high hydration - 91.8%, assuming the starter is at 100% (an equal mix of flour and water).

It has been, Yes.

Personally, I would try dropping that down to 75% by using only 85gm of water in the final dough and then adding more only if the dough seems unreasonably dry (it should be at least a little sticky).

Got it. I'll do just that :-)

I'd like to repeat the same recipe again, to try and eliminate the variables and learn where I went wrong. As you suggest.

Which brings me to the important - but not overly helpful - point: a recipe in a book that works well for the author might not work well for you. This forum is full of posts discussing how such and such recipe doesn't work as it's 'supposed to'.

I can see that, Yes. I've been baking sourdough on and off for some time. But have never really settled on a good 'file' of varied recipes which work under my conditions. A few months ago I was determined to make some of Chad's Tartine 3 recipes work because it seemed a good, classic, approach. Needless to say, I got a ton of help from the wonderful folk here. But I never quite got it right. The main 'simple' Challenger recipe I was more successful with. So I wanted to move on. I have - like most of us here, I feel sure - a good dozen sourdough books. Maybe I'm sending myself in the wrong direction by trying to stick to an approach and should find some way to experiment so that I can really learn the basics?

Is there, by any chance, a single source (book or online) where the recipes are tried and tested against beginner 'failure', perhaps, please, Dan? Or anyone!

TIA

… … … but kept in my notes :-)

Whole wheat/wholemeal flour - an interlude

(Feel free to skip this dry section)

… … … kept in my notes … … …

One of the reasons for the increased difficulty of making wholemeal bread is that wholemeal flour is massively variable.

So perhaps I should try a white loaf? I like the idea of the healthier whole wheat.

The chief difference between wholemeal and white… … 

… … Again - this is one of the many things that makes wholemeal baking a challenge!… …

All the more reason to see if I can eliminate some of the variables dealt with here and succeed with a white loaf?

Process - shaping and flouring

… the purpose is to ensure those sides are adequately floured as the curvature of most bannetons means that the flour has a tendency to slide down to the bottom…

… Crucially, the banneton is not there to shape the loaf but to maintain that shape while the loaf prooves and relaxes.

Thanks. That is the part I've been missing. My Aim #1! Thanks, Dan. Crucial indeed.

Process - fermentation/proofing

If your dough has doubled in volume before shaping it may well have been over-proofed.

Which would also be responsible for some of the phenomena I'm seeing, wouldn't it.

I confess to a little 'magical thinking here'. As a novice (however determined I may be) I kind of count it as a plus to get bread with our commercial yeast to rise at all. An achievement which I almost haven't thought I 'deserved'. Silly, I know. But I've been thinking, "Well, if I'm only supposed to be getting 30-50%, then look how well I must be doing to get 100%." And that's just not scientifically sensible thinking, is it.

… wholemeal flour will generally ferment quicker but rise less. This is one reason why the 30-50% of the recipe is as low as it is…

So should I take the recipe's author at her word, and be happy with 30-50%? I hate getting flat disks at the end of my baking due to inadequate rise.

The other thing to note is that, depending on your fermentation container, it can be difficult to judge when dough has actually doubled.

I bought some aliquot jars. It's time to trust them, trust myself (and trust you) and start using them, isn't it!

At any rate, with a bread like this, certainly err on the side ofunderproofing if you're unsure and then you can try pushing it a little longer.

Got it. Thanks. Will do. Just so wary of putting in all this work and still only getting a flat loaf :-(

Even after the bread is placed in the oven, the dough will continue to rise

I believe that happened. Could oven spring actually have accounted for the 75% which in this case I thought I observed, Dan?

As a guide to how long it takes the dough to increase in temperature, bread is 'done' when the internal (centre) temperature is ~90c/195F.

I have a Thermapen and always use it.

Something I should have mentioned: I used the Challenger baking regime (15 minutes at 435°F with the lid on + 25°F without the lid) because I asked the Challenger team whether to use their (temperature) guide when baking anything and they said Yes. As you probably saw from this recipe which I used, it suggested 30 minutes at 500°F covered and only 15 minutes without the lid. Was I wrong, do you think? The loaf was certainly almost burnt at 25 minutes!

Summary

  • Lower the hydration (try 75-80%)
  • Think of lowering the wholemeal percentage
  • Ferment/proof for a shorter period of time
  • Try to shape the dough a little more tightly

Thanks. But I have also pasted the text of what you kindly write and added into my notes (in the excellent Obsidian, BTW) - in full!

Once again, I cannot thank you enough for the time and support you have offered. Your comments on AA also noted. I can see its advantages. I'd really like to become proficient at 'hand made' bread. But can see how the kind of 'safety net' which is offers is an encouragement. Encouragement and support are such a hallmark of this forum :-)

Take care!

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

All bread should undergo some oven spring, unless it is utterly gloopified, though yours has not been left close to that long!

During the initial phase of baking - let's say the first 10-15 minutes - two processes are contirbuting to the rising: increased yeast activity creating more gas and physical expansion of the gas pockets. (The water in the dough is also turning to steam which raises the bread, too, but that is a tangent for later.)

The gas willl always at least try to expand as it is just the way gasses work; the increased yeast activity, however, relies on the yeast being active with available food to consume.

In short, the more active yeast in the dough and the more food it has to consume, the more the bread will rise during that oven spring. Of course, even at the accelerated rate of yeast activity in the oven, it can only do so much before the temperature kills it, which is why you need to ferment the dough before putting it in the oven - both to generate a bulk of pre-oven gas but also to have the yeast multiply through the dough, ready to throw that last big hurrah as the temperature climbs!

Underproofed dough will have less gas to expand and less yeast to take advantage of the rising temps.

Overproofed dough doesn't have enough food to sustain the yeast activity and, in addition, the fermentation has broken down the structure too much.

The former is like trying to start a party before enough guests have arrived and started enjoying themselves; the latter is like making a big announcement too late in a party - the place is a mess, the food has been reduced to a few warm cheese cubes and stale biscuits and people are either too intoxicated or have already started to leave (or both).

One caveat - as you no doubt know! - is that regardless of the other processes that are generating and expanding the gas, the dough itself needs to be able to expand to accomodate, which is where the steam comes in, as it keeps the surface of the dough supple enough to allow this.

After a certain time, the rising heat will set the crust and prevent any further expansion from any source. Unless you are baking very low - for whatever reason - this is likely to be somewhere around the same time as the yeast is dying off anyway so around 10-15 minutes.

That is likely the reasoning for Challenger's guide of 15 mins as, by that time, the crust has set sufficiently that all the moisture in the world won't help and the yeast will have died off, too.

HOWEVER - using a dutch oven or equivalent has a second benefit, in that it also reduces the rate of browning of the baking bread. Therefore, the longer you keep the bread in the oven, the less browned it will be, for a given temperature and time.

So, really, 15 mins covered is sufficient to allow whatever oven-spring will happen to happen and, from there, it's all about how you manage the time and temperature and the subsequent browning of the bread, which can only really happen (in normal circumstances) once the crust is dry.

You say you use a thermometer to judge when the bread is done - what temperature to you aim for? I know I said 90c/195F but this was kind of just a reference point to compare the yeast kill temp and how long it might take to get there.

When you start to get technical, the centre temperature should be somewhere between 90c/195F and 99c/210F.

Why the 99c/210F number? Because water boils at 100c/212F and, so long as water is still present in the centre of the bread (which is where it will remain the longest, being the furthest from the crust/hot-air boundary) any energy beyond that threshold will instead go into making the water boil. The temperature of the dough will only be able to reach 100c at the centre once ALL THE WATER HAS EVAPORATED. This is obviously not desirable, unless one is attempting to bake ships' biscuits and hard tack!

What happens during the bake is that the water bound up in the outside of the dough will start to boil first as that part of the bread is hottest. This is why the crust forms - the water evaporates away, leaving the crust dry and thus able to go beyond 100c and brown. This heat and absence of water at the crust/oven boundary creates a pressure differential that sees the water closer to the centre start moving outward toward the hotter, drier crust.

The oven heat is drawing the moisture out of the bread to the crust where it can boil away and evaporate and the more moisture there is in the dough, the longer this process will take. Again, however, while this is still happening (i.e. while there is still moisture available) the centre will never go beyond 99c/210F.

This action is why higher hydration breads will generally have a thinner crust than lower hydration breads - the moisture keeps the layer just below the crust 'proper' moist and thus it doesn't brown. The lower the hydration, the thicker the layer of bread where the moisture has completely evaporated.

One outcome of this mechanism is that, when you stop adding external heat, by taking the bread out of the oven, the bread will be wettest and coldest in the centre and drier and hotter as you go out towards the crust.

Left alone from that point, the heat energy will start to equalise. Anywhere a hot section meets a cooler section, the heat will be transferred into the cooler section until the two are the same temperature. This is happeing at the crust/cold air boundary, of course, but also between the crust and the area just below the crust (the mantle?) and between that area and the one just beneath it and so on down to the . . . core?

Steam will continue to be produced as moisture is drawn outwards and evaporates at the crust. In this way, not only does the bread cool, the moisture also redistributes. This is pretty much exactly what happens when you cook a piece of meat and are instructed to rest it - the cooler centre will continue to draw heat from the hotter, drier layers, which will in turn draw moisture away from the wetter inner layers.

The more residual moisture is in the bread, the longer this process will take and, if there is a LOT of residual moisture, the centre may stay noticeably 'gummier' than you might want. I should imagine that this is because the loaf will have cooled enough that the process stops before the moisture is sufficiently evenly distributed.

This process of continued moisture movement is also why a previously crispy crust can soften as the loaf cools. (And also why covering the loaf in a towel will soften the crust, as it keeps the moisture there and inhibits that final evaporation - some people do this deliberately, especially for bread intended for children.)

Which is all to say that the wetter the bread is, the hotter you can let the internal temperature get to so perhaps, if you have your bread coming out at 195F and the centre is still gummy, try leaving it until the centre is 205F. At 90% hydration, you really shouldn't risk having an over-cooked bread at that point!

BUT, we are now back to the covered/uncovered and oven temp question. The END answer to all of that is that you want to manage your temperatures and times (and covering/uncovering regime) so that your centre reaches the desired temperature at the exact same time the outside is the colour you want  :  )

If the bread is already the colour you want but the centre is still not hot enough, your bread will 'burn' on the outside.

This is all, of course, a matter of taste and some people love a deeply-browned crust, just as some people love a chewy, thick crust or a blond crust.

This is something you really just have to play with until you get somewhere near where you want.

The bread is done when the very centre is at least 195F (though again, I'd shoot for higher) no matter what colour the crust is.

One thing I find is that it's easier to quickly brown the crust by turning on the top element ('broiler'/grill) than it is to arrest a crust that is going to far so I tend to err on the side of longer steaming/under cover baking and, if I need to, blast it for a bit at the end - the same as you do when making a gratin!

Cheers,

Dan.

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks for that Dan. All pasted into my document :-)

It really explains a lot and makes that happens in (and out of) the oven understandable.

In fact, whenever I've plunged the Thermapen into a loaf, it's always registered around 204°F.

There's so much more going on inside (and towards the edge and centre in particular) of my loaf than I realized. Understanding it will help me get the proofing right and set just the correct temperatures to bake, covered and uncovered. Thanks again!

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Though I don't tend to follow any recipes and instead make up my own based on what seems good to me, the general process I advocate is:

1. Follow the recipe and just see what happens. (Which you have done.)

2. If it didn't work, drop everything right back to safer levels with the aim of erring on the side of strong, smooth, well-shaped and not-over-proofed dough. That means:

  • Use less water and lower any inclusions (like wholemeal flour!).
  • Knead/slap/fold more aggressively and for longer at the beginning.
  • Ferment for a little less time.
  • Shape more strongly, favouring a nice, tight, smooth ball over preservation of gas.

The point here is to end up with a strong, smooth, tight, ready-to bake shape as a benchmark. It won't rise as much in the oven as a dough that is handled more lightly or fermented more perfectly or shaped less vigorously BUT it will give you an idea of what you are aiming for at each stage.

From there, you can try making each step 'better' - see if you can achieve the same strength and smoothness with less vigorous folding, or with a little more water.

If you end up with a better loaf then keep going!

d.

Benito's picture
Benito

Mark lots of great suggestions that you’ve received already.  Seeing the loaf and crumb from an example bake that spread might also be helpful in diagnosing if the issue is overhydration vs overfermentation.  In terms of turning the dough out of the banneton, I’ve always placed the parchment over the banneton and then placing a hand over the parchment covered banneton flipped the banneton over 180º onto my hand and gently lowering it onto the countertop.  After scoring I’ll transfer the dough to the banneton using the parchment as a sling.

Benny

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Benny, Hi!

Thanks. Yes. What a great community :-)

Image of the finished loaf attached. It does feel a bit 'doughy' and chewy.

And of the recipe - from 'Whole Wheat Country Loaf' [p31] from Hannah Deal Cruz's Sourdough Every Day.

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi Mark! So good to see you back and hear that you are baking. Good for you!

As for your loaves spreading out... Well, once it has spread out, I simply tuck it under and send it into the oven, or at the very least I don't score it before baking, then it would rise up instead of spreading out even more during baking.

To prevent that spreading out issue simply add a pinch of vitamin C to your flour or your water before you combine flour and water and start mixing. Vitamin C will make dough sturdy and resilient to handling. It won't be deflating or spreading out any more.

1. Hydration does not matter that much. 

2. I don't use flour at all. I use pure starch. Rub it into the cloth liner and brush some of it over the surface of the loaf before placing it into the  banneton. Once the loaf is out of the basket, brush off the excess of starch, if any,  with a brush, score it, and send it into the oven.

3. Speed doesn't matter. It would either deflate and or spread out no matter what or it won't. It's like a birthday balloon, you can turn it over slowly or quickly, it won't deflate either way.

4. Vitamin C and maybe harder water if yours is soft or demineralized will solve that issue.

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Mariana

Hi Mark! So good to see you back and hear that you are baking. Good for you!

Thanks. What a friendly and helpful forum this is !

As for your loaves spreading out... Well, once it has spread out, I simply tuck it under and send it into the oven, or at the very least I don't score it before baking, then it would rise up instead of spreading out even more during baking.

Could I even go as far as to 're-ball' it? Shape it back up into a near sphere?

To prevent that spreading out issue simply add a pinch of vitamin C to your flour or your water before you combine flour and water and start mixing. Vitamin C will make dough sturdy and resilient to handling. It won't be deflating or spreading out any more.

Any particular type of Vit. C? Or specifically ascorbic acid like this?

1. Hydration does not matter that much. 

No? (Too much) water isn't responsible for a 'floppy' dough?

2. I don't use flour at all. I use pure starch. Rub it into the cloth liner and brush some of it over the surface of the loaf before placing it into the  banneton. Once the loaf is out of the basket, brush off the excess of starch, if any,  with a brush, score it, and send it into the oven.

Pure starch? Like for washing?

3. Speed doesn't matter. It would either deflate and or spread out no matter what or it won't. It's like a birthday balloon, you can turn it over slowly or quickly, it won't deflate either way.

I hadn't dared to try that. Thanks. I'll be calmer next time :-)

4. Vitamin C and maybe harder water if yours is soft or demineralized will solve that issue.

Ours is pretty hard.

Thanks for these suggestions, mariana! So much appreciated.

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Hi Mark,

I won't steal Mariana's advice here but simply confirm that yes, 'ascorbic acid' in powdered form is what you want.

Its use in commercial bread - especially sandwich loaves - is quite common and it is part of the toolkit of commercial bakers that allows them to produce a 'good' loaf quickly.

For artisan bakers, its use is more controversial.

To the best of my ability to discern, it is harmless. The rate of inclusion is so low and the change that occurs during baking also means that nothing of note remains in the finished product. That being the case, the inclusion is controversial not for the additive itself but for what it implies as it can be seen as a way to compensate for a poor product or its inclusion can be an indication that the baker favours speed over flavour.

For the the home baker, it can be an aid but not necessarily for speeding things up (that requires a whole swath of adjustments).

As I understand the science (imperfectly) the simple explanation is that gluten forms long strands that are curled up and twisted about. Mechanical mixing (kneading, folding, etc . . .) stretch these out and otherwise bring them into contact with one another, allowing the strands to cross-link into a larger 'web' of gluten. This is through something called 'di-sulfide bonding'. (Whatever.)

When you let dough 'relax', what happens is that the created and expanding gas wants to spread out these webs of gluten and this is facilitated by naturally-occuring enzymes in the flour, which sever the di-sulfide bonds.

This weakening is essential, otherwise the air pockets couldn't form. The more the dough rests, however, the more these enzymes break down the bonds and the weaker the gluten structure becomes. Eventually, it will weaken so much that it becomes 'over-proofed'. Stronger flours will hold up to longer fermentation better because they will have more gluten and thus more bonds to sever, i.e. they have more strength in reserve so the weakening and severaing of the bonds can continue for longer before the dough becomes unusable.

What ascorbic acid does, essentially, is inhibit the action of those enzymes (by converting them into a different form) and thus slow and reduce their effectiveness in severing the bonds.

The severing and 'weakening' will still occur - and that is essential to allow proper extensibility! - it will simply be more controlled.

This is why ascorbic acid makes dough more tolerant to over-proofing as it has the effect of increasing gluten strength by ensuring there is more cross-linking of the glutenin the dough at any given time.

It won't necessarily make up for inadequate development of the dough as that is still required to physically stretch the gluten strands and bring them together in order to allow those cross-linking bonds to form in the first place. Once that has been achieved however, the ascorbic acid will help retain more of that built strength for longer.

When AA is used along with strong inital mixing, fast, short rising (through added yeast and other additives to boost activity,) and then more aggresive dough dividing, 'knocking back' and shaping, the result is lots more of these di-silfide bonds and thus much smaller air pockets, which is why ascorbic acid is so well suited to fast production of sandwich loaves in a commercial setting.

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Mark, does author DeLa Cruz specify the capacity or diameter of the dutch oven to be used for the size of loaves given in her book?

I'm wondering if her formulas are scaled for a certain size D.O.

 

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Dave,

I thought she didn't; but, looking again on page 21 - with 'Look Inside' working you can see it, it's actually the Challenger!

The book was first published only last year…2020

I now have (I'd say) at least half a dozen major variations and better techniques to try - thanks to the usual wonderful advice from this form :-)  Thanks!

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

Hi Mark,

Just a quick one, here is a photo of the difference between ordinary (plain/AP) white flour, at the bottom, and what I use for dusting my banneton at the top. This is a more-or-less 50-50 mix of the rice flour I mentioned and a 'fine semolina'.

Note that the latter is not Semola Rimanciata and the various types and grinds of semola/semolina can go by many different names and it's all very confusing. I use what is known in Australia as 'fine semolina', which is a small but gritty grind. Coarse semolina is the same thing, just (obviously) coarser.

Semola flour - also called rimacinata ('re-milled') looks and feels petty much just like wheat flour.

Fine/coase semolina is similar in texture to fine and medium cornmeal, while rimacinata is like a fine corn flour (not to be confused with what we called 'corn flour' in Australia, which is actually corn starch!!! Gah!).

I use fine because it's what I have for baking cakes and other sweets and it gives them a lovely open texture which works especially well drizzled with syrup as it soaks right in! I mix the two - with no real concern as to proportions - simply because I use both rice and semolina flour for other purposes as well and I want to ensure I always have some of each on hand and am rotating both through the inventory.

The important point - for my purposes is that, as you can see in the photo above, the granules of the rice/semolina mixture stay more-or-less separate. Compare that too the plain flour, which is finer and clumps together.

Repeating my caveat from many posts ago, however, note that I do not use banneton liners so what I do may not quite work the same for you!

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks, Dan!

I would really never have thought that these types of flour (liner or no liner) could make such a difference.

I should have known better.

Did you discover the best 'mix' for your bannetons by experiment, accident, or your extensive knowledge, Dan?

I have just been reading the chapters on grand antichi in Daniel Leader's (relatively new) book, 'Living Bread'.

Makes me want to try and get some of those apparently stunning Sicilian flours and try them. But - as with your caveats on turning out stickiness - I know I shall have to be very precise in how I use them.

Thank again!

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

It was as simple as:

I remembered reading about someone using or recommending rice flour so I tried it. It worked so I kept using it. One day I ran out and used fine semolina instead because I use it on pizza peels as, like rice flour, it tends to resist burning so doesn't leave an unpleasant taste (or smell!) on the underside of the pizza in the instances where some does end up embedded.

It worked fine and, almost as important, it cleans up easily! (I often dust my bannetons over the sink to keep from getting flour on the floor but flour on in the sink, while contained gets annoying to clean out. Much less of an issue with rice flour or semolina.)

When I got some rice flour again and my dusting bowl was getting low, I just added the rice flour in, mixing it with whatever semoilina was left and I've been more-or-less alternating ever since and using that same mix for both bannetons and peel dusting (whether for pizza or loaves).

Short version is that both work for me and I tend to have both because I use them for other recipes as well so I'm not buying something especially for this purpose.

Once you find something that works for you; use it - this just happens to work well for me.

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks, Dan!

The next step I have to take is knowing how much flour(s) to dust with.

Should I leave a coating that obscures what's underneath; or be prepared to tip all of it out - e.g. into the sink? In which case I really can start with less in the first place; and just make sure I distribute it properly.

Dan_In_Sydney's picture
Dan_In_Sydney

I err on the side of too much as the results of too much dusting flour are far easier to deal with than missing spots and having the dough stick and tear.

And again, the nature of both rice flour and semolina allow me to be largely unconcerned with putting too much as the more granular nature of it means it sticks less to the dough, falls off more easily when turning out, is easier to brush off (both before and after baking) and does not burn like normal flour does.

I recall watching a video of some baker explaining that they use rice flour for their stencils because it stays fairly white, and thus gives a good contrast. It stays white because it doesn't burn so, again, the down sides of adding too much are pretty negligible.

I tend to go overboard as having something stick just ruins however good a day I might have been having!

Regarding clean up (just further to my last post,) here's a picture of my sink after brushing the rice/semolina mix off a loaf post-bake this morning. The sink is wet, by the way:

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks, Dan!

Yes, I can imagine weighing even the most generous dusting of flours and finding that they represented <1% of the flour(s) used as actual ingredients.

I'll 'err' as you do :-)

Briancoat's picture
Briancoat

Here is what I do. Just another way.


Ferment and S+F in the warm but only over the course of & 2-3h

Tons of (any) flour on banneton and shaped loaf.

Final rise in fridge overnight.

(Flour and fridge are great for avoiding adhesion)

I turn out into paper laid into a frying pan with a tapered rim just about same size as banneton - I find it holds the base of the loaf whilst I faff about with the pot lid etc.

I know the paper is cheating but using my hot iron pot I find my fingers burn less this way 😂

I’ve baked at 85% hydr. into 10% protein flour and still got good turn-out and final h/D over 0.6 (excl ear) using this method, so I think it is pretty robust.

Whenever I stray/experiment, e.g warm final rise, I’m braced for a risky turn-out!

Special flours and lower hydration will help but hopefully you will find you don’t actually need them.

I hope this helps - just another way. 

 

 

 

 

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Thanks, Brian. Yes, it does help. All understood. Do be careful not to burn yourself :-)

I can see that I should not skimp on the quantity of flour.

I could use the Challenger parchment (which - up to now - I have been putting into the Challenger bottom) as you do.

But in a kind of frying pan cum peel. Yes?

I think I have to accept that only when the dough is 'right' can I expect the rest to work :-)

Thanks again!

Briancoat's picture
Briancoat

I only use the pan to avoid it over-spreading at banneton turnout -  the pan does not go in. It is just a temporary booty enhancer.

Mark Sealey's picture
Mark Sealey

Got it. Thanks, Brian!