The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Sourdough starter HELP

TheDoughBae's picture
TheDoughBae

Sourdough starter HELP

Hello dear members. I’m hoping you’re all keeping well.

I need your help, so here it goes:

I purchased two types of flour:

1- •Wholemeal / Ingredients: Wholemeal wheat flour

2- Plain Flour / Ingredients; Flour(wheat flour, calcium, iron, niacin, thiamin), Raising agents (acid calcium phosphate, sodium bicarbonate ) 

I was thinking I bought PLAIN FLOUR at is says in the package and my idea was to create a sourdough starter with 50/50 parts of each flour combined and feed it with the supposed plain flour I bough in BULK 😫 

has anyone done this before? Can this type of flours be combined to create a sourdough starter? Or should I just start with the wholemeal, and feed it only with wholemeal? I’m a bit worried because as there’s raising agents in the Plain flour doesn’t that mean that it’s not a good flour to do a sourdough starter with?

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Hi,

The bad news first: Plain flour with a raising agent is not all purpose. In Australia, it is called self-raising flour and definitely not for sourdough starters or levains.

Wholemeal flour is not whole-wheat flour, it is usually lower extraction wheat flour with some bran added back in. If you want to start a strong starter search for whole-wheat or even better whole-rye.

Good News. Your "plain flour" will make great cakes.

Cheers,

Gavin

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Gavin, I saw this comment back when you posted it, I have been away from TFL for a while so please forgive the late reply. I wanted to say...

Here in the UK, the word "wholemeal" is widely used to describe whole-wheat i.e. 100% extraction flours that are milled with nothing added nor taken away and many UK mills explicitly state this.

Find out more about the different types of flour you can buy (fabflour.co.uk)

Certainly I recognise that some so called "whole" flours can have the bran returned after separating the bran and germ from the endosperm, but I believe this is uncommon in the UK.

Clearly the terminology can be different depending in which country you are in but I thought it pertinent to point this out given the location of the OP.

From UK legislation; ‘The term “wholemeal” is not defined in law; however it is generally accepted that wholemeal flour is the entire wheat grain, which contains the bran and the germ.’

Impact Assessment - The Bread and Flour Regulations 1998 (publishing.service.gov.uk) p.8


Also: Wholemeal, Whole Grain, Whole Wheat, Whole What? | Matthews Cotswold Flour (fwpmatthews.co.uk), which suggests wholemeal is specified as finely milled 100% extraction flour.


Cheers,
Michael

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Hi, Michael. Glad you commented. Here in Australia, it's rare to see flour labelled "Whole Wheat", most stores have "Wholemeal" but it is confusing to read what it contains from brand to brand. Recently, I realised a difference between store-bought wholemeal and my stone-ground whole-wheat when I baked Debra Winks 100% whole-wheat sandwich loaf. It was a very different experience between the two flours. The store-bought wholemeal was a better dough to work with and gave a better rise. My stone ground was very sticky and wet and didn't rise much.

Cheers,

Gavin.

 EDIT: This is a description of 100% wholemeal from Laucke mill in Aust. "This 100% wholemeal is produced from a special base flour to which the appropriate amounts of specially prepared bran, germ, semolina and other mill streams have been added back and mixed to reconstitute a whole meal. This method provides a meal that performs in a superior manner to meals that have been obtained by the simple reduction of whole wheat to smaller particles. "

mwilson's picture
mwilson

Hi Gavin.

Comparing home-milled to commercial milled is just like comparing apples to oranges, they will always be different products. Commercial milling utilises professional equipment, skilled operators and analytical testing to create consistent products and it would seem the miller never gets their fair dues.

Passing some unknown quality grain through a novel home milling device simply doesn't compare and often many people don't realise the complexity involved in professional milling, be it stone or roller milled.

According to Food Standards Australia New Zealand (FSANZ) wholegrain and wholemeal are synonymous in terms of constituents, in that they contain all parts; endosperm, bran and germ.

Just like in the UK there is some suggestion that wholemeal could mean finer particle size although it is not clear how widely this is accepted.

The comment from Laucke mill highlights the very nature of commercial roller milling operations where the grains are processed in such a way that their constituents are separated via multiple rolls and sifting machines to create several mill streams. It is therefore consequential that the final product is always reformulated to some degree.

The take-home point here is that legally in the UK and in Australia "wholemeal" flour contains all parts (endosperm, bran and importantly the germ) and approximates 100% extraction.


Cheers,
Michael

PS. Bibliography:

https://www.foodstandards.gov.au/consumer/nutrition/wholegrain/Pages/default.aspx

https://www.laucke.com.au/knowledge-base/bread-the-straight-answers

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7468996/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7400821/

gavinc's picture
gavinc

Hi, Michael.

A lot of useful information. Thanks for taking the time to respond, appreciated it.

Cheers,

Gavin

 

Candango's picture
Candango

I echo Gavinc's comment.  Your "plain" flour should be called "self-rising flour".  If you bought it in bulk, there is probably no packaging that would say "self-rising flour".    Do not use it for making your starter or sourdough bread.  Buy a small package of rye flour or all-purpose white flour for your starter.  Your self-rising flour is great for biscuits or cakes.  Good luck.

mariana's picture
mariana

This is so interesting! 

I would say that if it was me, I would use only wholemeal flour to create a starter for two reasons. First, It is loaded with sourdough bacteria and yeasts needed for quick development of sourdough starter. Second, it has no added chemicals that will stop it from becoming acidic as quick as possible, so that it ferments instead of just sitting there and rotting forever. 

Your plain flour has double acting baking powder in it and should be used only in doughs that are mixed and immediately baked, steamed or fried. Its baking powder would release 2/3 of its gas upon mixing flour with water and the remainder in the oven. Later on you can mix it with sourdough starter leftovers to prepare pancakes, scones and other quick breads. 

There was a discussion about someone who fed their already established sourdough starter with self-rising flour similar to yours. They say it didn't rise. It bubbled a little due to the gas from the baking powder but its flour chemistry somehow suppressed the activity of sourdough microflora. 

https://forum.breadtopia.com/t/self-rising-flour-and-starter/18596/6

TheDoughBae's picture
TheDoughBae

So, would I then keep feeding it with the wholemeal flour? 

mariana's picture
mariana

Well, your recipe for the starter should tell you what to feed your starter on each step.

Most recipes have wholegrain flour at least in the first step to begin fermentation, because whole grain flours are rich in sourdough microbes and nutrients, sugar, etc., and then you can continue feeding it either with strong bread flour or with the same strong whole wheat.

https://www.andrewsflour.com/bakery-range/bakers-flours/

or their Wholemeal No.8 (high protein), their Coarse Brown, or their Malt and Grain flour.

It depends on the starter that you want for yourself and on what you will be baking with it later on, mostly white flour or mostly whole grain goodies. 

gerhard's picture
gerhard

neutralize the acid resulting in a changed environment for both the bacteria and yeast, so it would upset the natural balance of sourdough.

mariana's picture
mariana

Gerhard, baking powder is a mix of acid and soda.

In baking powder soda neutralizes acid of its second component, acidic salt, and releases gas. Therefore when we blend flour with baking powder and add water the resulting mix is not alkaline nor acidic, but neutral. That is the beauty of finely tuned baking powders, they don't alter dough, it doesn't taste like soda nor is too acidic which affects both taste and gluten. 

In double acting baking powders only 2/3 of reaction takes place at room temperature and the remaining reaction happens during baking, at high temp, so that the goodies rise in the oven due to the additional gas being released as soda reacts with acidic salt.  

However, when you add sourdough to the mix, some other things happen. Baking powder is not just neutral with respect to flour, it keeps it neutral, buffers its pH. So, sourdough fermentation cannot proceed normally. At least that is what those folks have discovered when someone tried to feed their sourdough starter self-rising flour.

And of course, nothing prevents that remaining unreacted 1/3 of soda to react with acid of sourdough starter as you feed it, instantaneously, at room temperature. 

I haven't tested it myself with my own starters. Maybe the topic starter could, once he has his starter going he could take a tablespoon of it and feed it a couple of tablespoons of self-rising flour and water and see what happens. 

Happylifeinoz's picture
Happylifeinoz

Hi 👋 dear bakers,

I am creating a sourdough for the first time. My kitchen is cold, being 16 degrees Celsius.
 I have just bought a proofer so I was wondering if I should use it and keep it running non-stop for the 7 days it takes to make. What temperature should I keep the proofer at please? Any suggestions on a method? I’m going whole-wheat flour to start followed by white bread flour for feeds.

Benito's picture
Benito

A nice warm temperature around 80-82ºF should work well for developing your starter, that is the temperature that I favour for fermenting my starter, levain and dough generally speaking.

Benny 

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi Happy, 

although it is possible to create an excellent and quite unique whole wheat starter called desem at 16C, it is good that you have a proofer which you can keep at any temperature you want. One of the best ways to create starters is to start at about 40C and then continue at lower temperatures, about 27-30C. This way you will have a ready to use starter in a couple of days. 

Here's a good recipe for it. I used it for both rye and whole wheat starters and it works perfectly well each time. After two days of feedings, once the starter is ready, you can switch to any other flour, white bread flour is good as well. 

https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/31790/sourdough-starter-lifeless#comment-242106

STEP one

20g whole grain flour

240g water 25C

mix, keep in a tighly closed jar or in a ziplock bag without air, at 35-40C, ideally at 37C. It will stink, close tightly. 

STEP two

Add  100 whole grain flour to the first mix, mix and keep for 18-24hrs at 30-35C, ideally at 32C, again, in a tightly closed jar or in a ziplock bag with air squeezed out. 

STEP three

take 30g of starter, discard the rest. Add to your starter

100g whole wheat flour

45g water. 

knead. Leave it at room temp (20-30C) for 24 hrs. Your starter is ready. You can use it in baking or keep it going by feeding is once a day in the following manner:

FEEDING 

5g starter

50g flour

33g water

Keep it for 24hrs at 16-30C in a closed container. Then feed again, etc. 

best wishes, 

m. 

Happylifeinoz's picture
Happylifeinoz

Hi Marianna

Thank you for taking the time to reply and share your knowledge. Making sourdough sounds complicated, but I will give it a go! it will be wonderful to make bread without commercial yeast. 

mariana's picture
mariana

I understand how you feel. It's your first! 

Everything will be alright. You will be successful. Rest assured. 

Godspeed!