oven spring
Hello,
I've been making sourdough loaves for some time now - largely with much success. However, I've recently developed a problem with oven spring. It just isn't happening really. My loaves are acceptable, but that final rise in the oven has stopped. Why? Perfectly risen overnight rounded loaves of springy dough go in the oven in a dutch oven and slightly flatten at the sides and only barely part at the slash... I'm so frustrated I'm near throwing it all in, as one should an abusive relationship devoid of any reciprocity.
I've read a lot on this and actually had this problem before (unsolved, as I relocated and started a new starter), so, just to eliminate any of the usual solutions offered:
1) My starter is healthy - rising x3 on a 1:2:2 ration
2) I knead either by hand or in Kitchenaid, never no knead pulling method. Whatever the case, I've had many, many, many successful loaves using this method. First proof, 5 or so hours, second proof 12 or so in fridge in banneton.
3) So, all the usual over-proofing, not active enough starter, not hot enough oven etc. solutions don't seem relevant here. I've changed nothing, it has just stopped rising in the oven.
4) The only thing I can point to is leaving the started in fridge for over a week - about 10 days - unfed. It was after this that things changed. However, I can't really see this as the cause, as the starter is back in fighting form. This is just the moment when it happened.
I've included a photo of past glory as well as recent failure.
Any help greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance
Where do you live? If your kitchen is warmer now that July has arrived, then five hours might be too long for the bulk fermentation. Also, the temperature of the water will influence the initial dough temperature, which will impact the length of the bulk fermentation.
Do you have a photo of the crumb? That can reveal things too.
Overall your loaf does not look bad.
Happy baking.
Ted
C79FA462-4620-4160-82A7-FD99892404AF.jpeg
Thanks for your response. The temperature hasn’t really changed. It’s the U.K. and a terrible summer, so whatever change isn’t drastic. I try to control the bulk fermentation and this loaf certainly had not over-proofed - a bit under if anything, but enough. It was a perfect looking dough after the second proofing as well.
I have always used cold water, unless pressed for time and wanting a quicker proof.
Here is a photo of the crumb - it was a seed loaf, mostly white with a little whole wheat. Alright but a bit tight. Really at a loss…
Scott
Even before reading Benny's reply, I noticed the uneven baking of the crust. It does not look like the bottom of your dough is getting enough heat. Moving the dough lower in the oven should help that.
Ted
Thanks - I'll try that. It would explain why a seemingly perfect dough isn't rising correctly in the oven. Although a bit confused as to why it would have changed from how it was before.
I have a fan and a non-fan over. I'll try lower in the non-fan and see if that makes a difference!
Scott
Welcome back.
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If you use a starter that has not been fed in 7 days, it will be too acidic, and proteolytic (breaks down protein/gluten.) That could cause your situation.
You were unclear on exactly how you are using the starter in the formula , or if you make a levain out of it.
7 day old refrigerated starter needs fed twice before use to dilute the acid. Or fed at least once, and then used to elaborate a levain.
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Also, for a good oven spring, the dough should not expand more than 50% during bulk ferment. 100% increase during bulk is not conducive to oven spring in a hearth loaf. Pan loaves are a different matter.
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The surface crust of the baked loaf also looks like the dough was over-hydrated. Or extra water was added to the dutch oven somehow.
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Good luck, amigo.
Hello,
Thanks so much for the response:
I don't make a levain but rather feed and use. After returning, I fed three or four times before using - but to be honest, I have gone away before and not been so careful and not had troubles. Usually, I have kept my starter in the fridge, taken it out the night before baking, fed in the morning and added to bread mixture when at its peak some 4/5 hours later. Since the troubles began, I've been keeping it out of the fridge and feeding every morning, with no change.
I'll try the no more than 50% (I assume hearth loaves mean not in a tin but free on all sides?) Though my only question is still - why the change when it was all good before?
Yes, I add ice cubes to the dutch oven. I was led to believe this helps the bake. No? I don't think the dough was over hydrated, if anything more on the tighter side after mixing.
Thanks again!
Hi Scott, I wonder a few things. First is the hydration is a bit too high for the flours used, if it has been damp lately that may make the flour less able to absorb all the water you’ve given it. Have you checked the temperature of your fridge? If you haven’t, place a glass of water on the shelf in the location you place your banneton for cold retard. If the temperature is more than 5ºC then your dough is at risk of overfermenting while in cold retard. The bottom crust looks pale in the photo of the crumb while the top crust is very dark. I wonder if you can bake lower in your oven. You may be getting too much heat setting your upper crust too soon and all the while not getting enough bottom heat for oven spring.
Finally regarding the starter, If your fridge is really < 5ºC then I wouldn’t really worry too much about it going unfed for up to two weeks in the fridge. My starter is fed and allowed to fully peak and then refrigerated for up to 14 days. During that 14 days I can build a levain without need of refreshing my starter. I no longer worry about the starter getting too acidic and passing on too much acidity especially if you do large ratio levain builds such as 1:6:6 because the flour should fully buffer the acids from such a small amount of starter used to build the levain.
Benny
Hello,
I'll give checking the fridge temperature a try - though am still at a loss as to why it would change when it was fine before. Don't think the temperature has changed.
I have a fan oven so not very sure lower would make much difference - and it is quite low in the over, but will put it lower still.
I'm slightly confused about the difference between using a starter and building a levain, to be honest, and have never had issues before: I just feed the starter, wait until peak and use some in the dough mixture. Is this wrong?
Many thanks again!
Oh I see you are using the starter directly to leaven your bread. I think of the starter as the seed for making a levain and the levain as what I add to the bread. I feed my starter only whole rye and thus wouldn’t want to be adding that much rye to all of my breads especially all white milk breads. So many of us home bakers who might bake a couple of time per week keep our starter in the fridge for up to two weeks. As I said before, feeing it, letting it peak fully then placing it in the fridge. When I want to bake bread, I will use a small portion of the cold starter and build a levain, 1:6:6 or so using the flour I want so that I’m not adding that much rye to my breads. That also greatly reduces the acid load I am transferring to my bread.
You’re not wrong in what you’re doing if you’re adding your starter to your dough after it has been freshly fed and risen to peak. But if you’re then refrigerating it for up to 10 days and then using it directly without feeding it to raise bread in the quantity that one might use then you’re correct in thinking that you’re probably adding a lot of acid to your dough.
Hi Benny,
I'm making sure that it is fully active before adding it to my bread mixture. When I have been away for 10 days, I usually feed at least twice before using. So this should probably be ok?
Scott
Yes that is totally fine. Just make sure you’re giving your starter a high ratio feed that way you are buffering the acid load it has accumulated while in the fridge.
Benny
Great I will take all these tips into account and hopefully get a better rise. I hope you don't mind if I get back in touch with any questions should I have troubles.
Many thanks again
Scott
No problem Scott, I’ll get notification about posts here so that I’ll see new posts you might make.
Benny
@Benny, thank-you for the correction / clarification. Fridge temp and feeding ratios do come into play.
@Scott, Benny's answer is more complete/comprehensive than mine.
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Are you pre-heating the dutch oven?
Hello,
Yes - the dutch oven is preheated in the oven at 250c and then turned down to 225 when the bread goes in.
I was living in Durban until recently and not using a fan oven and had greater success. Since being in the UK the rise hasn't been as good, but has been OK until the recent issue. I'll try using the non-fan function at a lower place in the oven and see if that makes a difference.
I will also try the fridge temperature, but given that I get frustrated that some vegetables sometimes freeze in the crisper directly below, I'm assuming it is cold enough :-)
Scott
Might have to set it colder. Or use ice water. Even tap water is warmer in summer. :)
edit: The lower part of the fridge is coldest. Perhaps moving the veggies up to a warmer level and saving the bottom shelf/bin for retarding might be a solution. Nobody likes freezing their veggies and salads. I never understood why the veggie bin got designed into the bottom of the fridge. I bring my salad goodies from the garden, wash and store in containers much higher.
I'll give it a try!
“ The lower part of the fridge is coldest.”
Mini, what I about to say goes against common sense. We all know that cold air falls and warm rises. But in my fridge to top is colder than the bottom. My only guess is that the compressor is located near the floor. Possibly that heat migrates into the lower area of the fridge.
I would like to see others place a glass of water on the bottom shelf and another glass on the top shelf. Check temps the next day and report your findings. The results should be interesting. I wonder if my fridge variances are typical or not.
Danny
Update -
Just took infrared readings on the back wall of the fridge
Lower right side - 40.1F
Lower left side - 38.3F
Top right side - 37.4F
2 glasses filled with 3.5oz each of water was placed in the fridge. One on the top shelf and the other on the bottom. I will report back with the readings. For those that are unaware, 2F degrees makes a big difference when retarding dough in the fridge.
5 hours after pacing the water in the fridge.
Top Shelf - 42F
Bottom Shelf - 44F
NOTE- my fridge is set colder. Will check temperatures later, they reading should be lower.
around the fridge last night and used my laser thermometer this morning. I discovered my fridge should go a notch colder itself. My refridgerator is split with three large drawers in the lower half, each one over the other. The coldest part of my fridge is that top drawer 5°C. The lowest drawer is warmest at 7°C. The bottom of the middle section (above that coldest drawer and technically the bottom of the fridge) is next coldest. The door compartments and the top section (below the freezer) are the warmest with a big differences on the back wall. Back wall is very cold 5.6°C. Crowding the back wall leads also to big differences in the various sections. Starter is on top shelf back against the wall. Back wall is 5.6°C, Door and front mid sections vary from 9-10°C. Now to turn it colder.
I checked the temps again this morning. The glasses had been in the fridge for 20 hr. It appears that opening the fridge during the day has a greater affect on the temps than I imagined. Overnight readings are the most accurate.
Top - 37F
Bottom 39F
Never thought to check the middle before reading your last post. Will give that a try.
OH! I should mention, my fridge doesn’t have a freezer. Whether the freezer is on the top or the bottom will probably make a difference in the temperature distribution in the fridge.
to stick a thermometer in with the dough when it is chilled since where it sits can be so varied.