The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Development in Trevor's high-hydrations.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Development in Trevor's high-hydrations.

Try as I might, by the time I get any dough into 82-85% hydration, I just can't get the dough developed to the extent Trevor shows in his videos (I'll use his Tartine country as an example).  I do take the time and get good elasticity - I can pull it quite high and it shows its elasticity - but I am a world apart from Trevor's dough by the end of the mix.  (I use Rubaud, as I've learned it from Trevor).

I know Benito said he can't achieve needed strength in these doughs with the Rubaud technique and relies on Bertinet instead for this purpose.  Perhaps I should do that.  On the other hand, I do what I think is a fairly aggressive Rubaud mix, trying to emulate a true diving arm with attention to development, with a pretty exacting attention on the dough.

Anyone have insights - the chasm between a rather slack, if worked and decently elastic dough, and the development shown by Trevor in the vids for his highly hydrated doughs?

phaz's picture
phaz

If the dough isn't developing beyond s certain % of water, there's too much water. The simple fix, use less water. Enjoy! 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks phaz.  My question goes however to how Trevor gets what looks like a low-hydrated dough strength (for want of a better term, and all other things being equal) with highly hydrated doughs - i.e., not lowering the hydration, but keeping it high yet getting an entirely different result.  In other words, how is he getting this tight little dough with just the Rubaud method and S&F's, ending up with a very nicely strong dough (that slashes beautifully, for one thing) from an 85% hydration?

I suspect like everything else, time, practice - no shortcut to the experiential benefit of just doing it.  But in case others have wondered (and solved?!) the same thing, just curious.

phaz's picture
phaz

I can't speak for others, i just state the principle. If a dough does not develope beyond a certain % of water, there's too much water. Water, while essential for gluten formation, also inhibits it's formation when too much.  Enjoy! 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I'm sorry, phaz, I'm not understanding you.  Can you tell me what you mean with "If a dough does not develop beyond a certain % of water, there's too much water..."?  I would say that that's up to the baker, more than anything else.  What I can do at 65%, another can do 88%, without issue.  So, not quite understanding your meaning.  Thanks, however.

 

 

Paul

phaz's picture
phaz

It's actually up to the ingredients being used, and if the info given is accurate your ingredients aren't able to handle that much water. Do bear in mind though, there is very little info given. Enjoy! 

mariana's picture
mariana

Paul, his dough doesn't look like very high hydration dough even when he mixes it first. His flour and, possibly, water is different from yours. Dryer, stronger flour and hard Vermont water would give such dough. Soft water and moist flour will give dough that behaves very differently at 82-85% hydration.

He also described the technique that he developed for very slack highly hydrated doughs that he described in his blog:

... I developed a special folding technique that did wonders for this bread. It’s easier to demonstrate than explain, but imagine your wet sloppy dough in a rectangular dough tub. Now lift and stretch one end and begin rolling the dough into a tight log — like you’re making cinnamon rolls or sticky buns. Once you have a tight roll, turn that roll 90 degrees and roll it up the same way. What you end up with is a very tight coil. Now do that every 30 minutes. By the third fold you’ve turned your wet sloppy dough into a tight springy mass that’s much easier to handle. There’s so much tension in the dough it’s actually bouncy. It shapes well and just explodes in the oven.

Illustration: 130% hydration dough

 

Source: comments section at http://www.breadwerx.com/on-bread-life-changing-moments-and-coming-full-circle/

 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I see.  Thanks, Mariana, that's really fascinating.  I'd never have thought of specific flours (where, when, how) and water makeup as having that significant effect but now that you write it, of course it's that important.  You've really piqued my curiosity.  I know our city water for brewing purposes, and it's not good.  We rent and have terrible tap for brewing, on top of the city water issue, so I end up using distilled and doctoring it's chemistry for a wanted profile (specific to malts and hops used, and intent with the finished ale).  Anyway, I'm grateful to you for pointing this out.

For some reason I am unable to see the photo of the really highly hydrated bread, but thank you for the quote as well.  I don't  know if  I've seen the technique in his videos.  I only know 3 main methods: what I'm (I'm sure, incompletely or flat out wrongly) calling "Rubaud mixing," that diving arm method he uses for high-hydration doughs; for stiff doughs, that kind of one-handed rolling up, like a batard shaping; and finally, for  stiff doughs, using the (more developed) dough, rolling it up alongside the side of the bowl, tucking in with the working hand, via friction on the bowl side.

Do you know - are any of these the method spoken of in your post above?  The only thing I can picture from the quote is a method of multiple foldings - folds upon folds upon folds, "nested folds," I guess I could call it, then rotating the dough tub, repeat.

Very rich post, as always.  Thanks, mariana.

 

Paul

mariana's picture
mariana

Paul, maybe you can open a picture by clicking on its web address?

http://cdn4.breadwerx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/MG-Original.jpg

The method that Trevor describes is identical to forming a jelly roll, repeated twice.

A flat mass of slack dough sitting in a square tub is rolled up into a log. Since our dough is slack that roll will flatten somewhat under its own weight, again resembling a long squarish strip of dough.

Then that log of dough inside the plastic tub is rotated 90 degrees and again rolled up like a jelly roll. 

You can practice that move with a square piece of paper or a towel. Roll it up loosely, flatten the resulting paper pr towel log by hand, rotate it 90 degrees and roll up the resulting long and flat strip of rolled up paper/towel again.

After 30 min rest repeat rolling up your slack dough twice as described above. Do that every 30 min during bulk ferment until you are satisfied with your dough strength.

The three methods that you describe are for kneading dough by hand inside mixing bowl, i.e. for mixing ingredients to homogeneity and then for applying energy to dough by slapping it by hand and rubbing it against the bowl in a variety of ways in order to develop its gluten.

The "jelly roll" method of folding dough during bulk fermentation is not kneading, but "punching the dough down" French style, flattening it, degassing it somewhat, while preserving its holes.  It is for giving dough strength, because you said that your dough is too slack at 82-85% hydration and asked what to do to make it tall, bouncy, with great oven spring and majestic opening along the scores over is surface in the oven.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Fantastic, thanks for the explication, mariana.  Stage 2 Rubaud levain again this evening and really look forward to trying the method out tomorrow.  It's the only bread I intend to be working on.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I believe this is the folding Trevor does - right, mariana?

mariana's picture
mariana

Seems to be it, or a variation of it, Paul. Great video of a great baker. Adam bakes amazing breads, lots to learn form him if you pursue insanely high hydrations or irregular, airy, holey crumb. Thank you Paul!

Trevor in his January 2016 comment talks about it as if it was something that was not known to professional bakers, something he invented long before 2015 when he was working in O Bakery and coil folding is something that is widely talked about more recently. Yet he does describe in his 2016 text "a very tight coil", so it must be it or similar to what Adam does in his video clip.  

I don't do coil folds myself, I literally roll it up as Trevor describes: lift and stretch one end and begin rolling the dough into a tight log , in opposite direction, as a jelly roll on the table or in a bin. I don't tuck it under, so to speak, as in coil folding. It also forms a very tight coil, but it is done differently there is no facing of the 'back' of the coil as in Adam's technique, there is no lift and throw move as in coil folds or stretch'n'folds. The back of the coil (of the 'jelly roll') is under, facing the bottom of the bin or table surface.

I also started doing it intuitively, long time ago, to give dough strength while avoiding huge holes in the crumb (it's tight log, tight coil), but I don't name it and don't claim that I invented it. 

Coil folds give huge irregular holes, they trap massive amounts of air in between layers of coils. Jelly-rolling into a tight coil gives more even crumb as shown in Trevor's illustration of the bread that he baked in O Bread bakery. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

 Thank you for the post and the insights, mariana.  The ability to fine tune the crumb through these techniques seems like a powerful tool and it's something to practice.   Appreciate the teaching.

I have to admit I'm having some trouble imaging a "jelly roll", however.  I tried my best guess on the method this morning and got it completely wrong, I'm afraid.  I couldn't "roll" anything, so slack it just sort of plopped and blobbed - I know it's hard with words only - but is the method something like the log pre-shape or batard shaping method where you essentially draw the mass of the loaf forward, stretching the "tail" and using the thumbs to tuck in the dough - basically "rolling up" the dough into it's log shape?  Similar to here?  If so, I failed - for me, way too slack and couldn't get any traction on an attempt to roll up a la genoise jelly roll.  I ended up with the coil variations I'm seeing.

If you get a chance, I know the method you're describing is a powerful one.  Appreciate any further thoughts.

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Yes, Paul. As in the last video. Except without flour on the surface, of course. 

If your dough resembles porridge or too soupy, unstructured, then add a little more salt and refrigerate until stiff, a thin layer of dough chills quickly, and only then roll it up. And next time, deploy double hydration or continuous hydration methods of incorporating liquid.

Double hydration is when you first add just enough liquid to form gluten and develop it to the windowpanning stage, the remaining liquid is added at the end of kneading.

Continuous hydration or bassinage is when you add a little bit of water or other liquids each time you fold your dough, so it takes hours and many steps to incorporate all liquids (water, liquid starter, oil, etc.) in the formula.

https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1801473596846582&_rdr

Your ingredients, water and flour, are obviously different from Trevor's, so his one step method of mixing liquid and dry ingredients are doing damage to your flour gluten and your bread.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Many thanks for this, mariana.  Looking forward to implementing your ideas. 

Thanks, too, on clearing up the term bassinage.  I always took it to mean your double hydration, above.  Never heard of continuous hydration, until your mention now.  Fascinating!

Merci,

Paul

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Warning:  wordy!  Summary questions at end, if you want to skip down...

Well, epic fail.  I really want to stay as true as possible to M. Rubaud's original formula.  I'm very intrigued by his three stage levains.  While we're at it, M. Calvel's 2-stage builds (your thread on his pain au levain has been a seminal one for me, mariana).  However these two loaves came out of the bannetons with no strength whatsoever, immediate deflation and spread out. (and I know this is not even "super-hydrated"). 

Clearly, I've not got a handle at all on higher-hydration doughs.   IIRC Calvel's formula ends up with 64% and I think I'll keep working at the Rubaud, but beginning at a modest 70% hydration.

I am more than anything else intrigued by your/Trevor's "jellyroll" method as I'm intrigued by how manipulations within a given formula end up with different results (e.g., as here, you're indication coiling tends towards more, uneven holes and the jellyroll method tends to a tighter, more even crumb).

Back to a really large drawing board. 

A few likely dumb questions - but can you tell me, Adam who?  How do you achieve your "rollup" with a really wet (is it tacky) dough?  I mean to say, I can't envision doing it because I end up merely sticking to the dough if I don't wet my hands well and stay in light, quick contact (as in s&f or the coiling).

Finally, you mentioned Adam is a wealth of information on working with highly hydrated doughs.  May I ask, would you be able to point me to his work?  (I am tech-inept.  Tragically luddite, stuck in the 19th century).

Thank you again mariana.  I appreciate the generosity of spirit.

 

Paul

 

ps:  I might as well admit it.  I have lost all memory for and love of cooking, as strange as that sounds.  Combination of aggressive neurological changes over the last several years and cognitive changes and depression accompanying it all.  Have no mojo, basically, but it is my sincere way to proceed in a traditional lineage, with strong fundamentals.  It has always been my way...I personally do not believe much good comes from dabbling in or bouncing around many different schools of thought, if one wants to truly master the field, any field. (among other lives, I lived in a Japanese zen and martial arts temple, direct disciple to a master of both.  Severe, feudal training - but I believe in such an approach).

So after all, do you (or anyone) have any suggestions on a new beginning:  As if a brand new student, "who" to truly "master" in terms of their baking point of view and body of techniques?  Cover to cover (it's how I learned Pepin as a kid...cover to cover; start over until mastered):  Hamelman?  Calvel?  Trevor?  Yourself (you are obviously exceedingly knowledgeable and master of this ancient craft; I just don't know you or whether you've written material)?

Thanks for reading.  Loquaciousness aside, I do ask with a sincere heart.

mariana's picture
mariana

I am so sorry, Paul. Ahh... it is not easy to watch your bread fail, spread out as you take them out of their bannetons. Did you reshape them and gave it another go?

Some breads require very little proofing before baking, like 15-20 min is enough. Touch them with your fingers from time to time as they sit there, proofing before baking, to learn when they are still strong and already puffy, tense enough to withstand handling. 

- Adam who? 

- Adam Pagor, he owns a bakery in Kent, England and teaches baking courses

https://www.instagram.com/season_adam/

https://www.grainandhearth.co.uk/introtosourdough

- How do you achieve your "rollup" with a really wet (is it tacky) dough? 

- I wear gloves, I spread the tiniest amount of low fat margarine (50% fat margarine is high in lecithin which makes it the best non-stick lubricant, better than PAM spray which is oil+lecithin) on the surface and my gloved hands. I place dough on that surface and I proceed. Nothing sticks at all.

Make sure your dough is cold, reasonably cold, though, 20C/70F or below, under 10C/50F is best. Ferment at whatever DDT is prescribed in the formula to achieve flavor and acidity, but for the folding stage it is best to chill your dough.

Like so, 120% hydration dough, 10% flour protein and it is not even pure wheat!

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=815748875487958

- I can't envision doing it because I end up merely sticking to the dough if I don't wet my hands well and stay in light, quick contact 

- Well, if you have plenty of gluten formed and kneaded your dough well before the beginning of the bulk fermentation, then it is tacky but not sticky at any level of hydration because all water is absorbed by flour particles and by gluten and is locked in between gluten layers.  Some people use water, others - flour. I don't use either, just a tiny amount of low fat margarine, like 1/2 tsp, that much, on the working table surface where the dough is being rolled (on the table, or inside the tub, etc) and on my hands. 

The specific technique of tight rolling is shown here:

Here, the baker uses both oil in the tub and water spray on the table, water in the bowl for hands, to work without sticking: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B63Fe0xB01p/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CEi-2Shj-_p/

This is what Trevor does, to give his dough extra strength: jelly roll it twice!

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1lF2slhWST/

This baker Yoon Lee is superb, from the two videos and Instademos above, she is simply amazing:

https://www.instagram.com/mothersoven/?hl=en

One of the very few who manages to achieve Tartine's creamy crumb outside of Tartine bakery

https://www.instagram.com/p/CElDKxKjd8W/

Baking is a very hands on skill/profession. It is best if you have someone to show you, someone next to you. Maybe you can find courses near where you live? Even one or two day long weekend courses are extremely valuable.

KAF is offering virtual classroom learning right now. Lots to choose from and ask the teachers in real time. All you need is a laptop or a desktop computer. Install Zoom program for free from the Internet. Very easy. Most likely you would be able to see the reruns, you would have to ask them. 

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/baking-school/calendar

Cover to cover is good as well. I did that twice. One was for general breads and buns, 300 recipes, and another - for 50 bread machine breads. Whom to choose and which breads to bake is truly up to you, Paul. You must like the person - the author(s) -  and their writing style and be eager to bake and eat breads that they describe. This is impossible to recommend, we are all so different and like different people and different breads. I didn't survive even one day in Japanese Zen temple, escaped right away, taking the first available flight home, from Japan to Canada, but my husband and our son endured for two weeks there and loved it. So, you and me are different, Paul, for sure : ))) I mostly like tradition, folk recipes, not individual baker's or fancy recipes nor fads.

For home baking, my favorite US authors are probably Clayton, Glezer and Hensperger. Two Peter Reinhart's books on Pizza baking at home are the absolute best as well.  Professional baking is a bit difficult to translate, to adapt to home conditions, so I don't use professional recipes at home that much, they require a lot of tweaking, A LOT.  Fairly recently published Modernist Bread encyclopedia is very comprehensive and very cutting edge. Before that, Advanced Bread and Pastry was the best manual on baking, West Coast style. 

Start small and start with something very simple and what you would like to eat as your daily bread. I liked the bread machine breads challenge because bread machine breads are not just difficult, they are reasonably quick. And they are simply heavenly tasty and fragrant when baked right. I was able to do 4 test bakes in a row in one day when I was struggling with this or that bread and its secrets. It taught me so much! 

best wishes, 

m. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I cannot thank you enough for this wealth, mariana.  Deeply grateful.  (gassho).

 

ps:  I just watched the child learning folding from her or his mother.  Really beautiful.

Trevor J Wilson's picture
Trevor J Wilson

This is a very interesting topic. Mariana has done a wonderful job bringing depth and insight into the discussion (along with some great sourcing, as she usually does). Since you mentioned that you were most interested in the coil fold technique, I thought that I might be able to bring a bit of context – and maybe some interesting perspective -- to the discussion here.

First, a bit of background info: Coil folding is a technique that professional bakers have been using for quite some time, certainly before I came around. I discovered the method myself – intuitively, much as Mariana discovered it herself – in the quest for generating extra tension and structure in highly-hydrated whole-grain porridge bread. Though I came upon the method myself, I definitely was not the first to do so. I assume that most professional bakers who use bus tubs for bulk fermentation eventually stumble upon this method after enough time – the rectangular shape of the bus tubs naturally inclines itself towards coil folds, and so the folding method is an instinctive offshoot of using the containers. The comment at my website where I mentioned that “I developed a special folding technique” to fold the dough into a tight coil was not meant as a claim to be the originator of the method. It was a remark to a fellow baker who I had worked with for many years at Klinger’s Bread Company, attempting to describe a method I had come up with for generating tension and structure. I did not assume that no one had ever done such a thing before me (in his follow-up comment, my friend even mentioned that they used the same folding technique for their ciabatta at the bakery he was then working for), but I probably could’ve phrased it better. Indeed, when I joined the world of social media, I saw that this technique (and variations thereof) was even more common in bakeries than I imagined. But no big surprise really.

My personal contributions to the recent popularity of the technique are centered on two areas…

1) I gave the technique a name. I called them “Coil” folds because that’s how I thought of them (as seen in that comment). I often name things (like Coil Folds, Rubaud Mixing, Fool’s Crumb, etc.) because it helps with effective communication. Every craft develops its own language. This is necessary in order for ideas/methods/techniques/concepts to be efficiently and accurately communicated between those practicing certain skills. It’s not an ego thing, it’s a communication thing. But though anyone can suggest a name, ultimately it is the community that chooses the name. Language is always by consensus. And if the community doesn’t like the name, then the name won’t stick.

An interesting example of this is with Chad Robertson’s shaping method for his Tartine bread. He created the shaping method and gave it a name – “Structural Shaping” – but that is not the name that the bread baking community uses. Most call it “Stitching”. I don’t know who first used that term, but it communicated the idea in a much more memetic way. And so that’s how it’s known.

(As an aside, when I first started writing my book I intended to call Chad Robertson’s shaping method “Swaddling” because that’s how I personally thought of it. “Structural Shaping” didn’t seem quite accurate to me since all shaping is structural in a way, but “Swaddling” seemed depictive enough. But once I saw that the community was already calling it “Stitching” – quite depictive in itself -- there was no need to suggest a competing name. The language was already established and understood, so communication regarding the method was effective. Plus, I’ve grown to like “Stitching” better.)

2) I described the technique and demonstrated it in a way that was useful for the home baker. It was in this post..

https://www.instagram.com/p/BiAKi1bHziw/

…and I later elaborated on it in several other posts, as I recall. I used a square casserole dish (to simulate the bus tubs of professional bakers) made of heavy pyrex so that it would stay put on the counter, thus allowing the dough to fully stretch and develop tension. After that, I first noticed the technique’s prominence in the posts of the wonderful baker, Chiew See of Autumn Kitchen. She was also the first (to my knowledge) to use coil folds in combination with lamination (though I believe she learned the technique of lamination from Guy Frenkel of Ceor Bread, who himself took the idea from traditional Jewish baking – but don’t quote me on that). Chiew’s breads were absolutely gorgeous, and her crumb stood out as some of the best I had ever seen.

Of course, coil folding (and lamination) really took off thanks to Kristen Dennis of Full Proof Baking. She used a method (at the time) very similar to Chiew See – that of coil folds + lamination – and achieved equally stunning loaves. When her account blew up, the popularity of coil folds (and lamination) skyrocketed. As of now, I’d say she is the one most closely associated with the two techniques. Thanks to Kristen’s popularity, these two techniques are now ubiquitous amongst the home baking community.

It’s an interesting thing that in this day and age we can actually track the spread of ideas and methods in real-time. It seems everything nowadays is documented online and in social media. For those with an investigative bent, budding history can be tracked while still in the making. I find it endlessly fascinating.

Now, regarding the method itself, the main two things to know are purpose and technique. Technique is easiest to explain. Actually, demonstration is easiest, so here’s a few more video clips…

https://www.instagram.com/p/BihpGQjgOXA/

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bju7aazn27T/

https://www.instagram.com/p/Blqyl3cnv5R/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmwbSu6Hkwi/ (best video, IMO)

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp-uonlnD5M/

https://www.instagram.com/p/Br2wOxinJ6X/

https://www.instagram.com/p/B8jUHItn6Q1/

I know that was a bunch of fairly repetitive videos, but there was also in-depth commentary in a few of them that some might find helpful. Please forgive me for only linking to my own videos – it’s easiest for me to find my own videos since I know where they are… and I confess, who doesn’t like to toot their own horn on occasion?

Moving on, the second thing we need to consider is purpose. This is a much more complicated discussion because it is truly the heart of the matter. What exactly can coil folds do for a baker? And more importantly, how do we actually use them in practice? Is it simply a matter of folding according to a strict schedule? Or can we actually achieve different effects in our dough (and ultimately, our bread) by utilizing different folding routines? Are coil folds simply just another method of developing gluten? Or can they actually contribute to dough structure in other ways?

Since this comment is already running long, I think I’ll answer those questions (and more) in a stand-alone post. That should also make the info more available to those who aren’t necessarily following this thread. So I’ll write that up in a few days or so (though if you read the posts I linked to above, you’ll have a good idea where I’m going with this). But I don’t want to end this comment on such a disappointing note. So as consolation, I’ll include a link to this video of Adam Pagor. It’s an old video filmed out of his original place (before he started “Grain and Hearth”). As Mariana mentioned, Adam is one of the best baker’s out there. I absolutely love the guy. Here’s the video, enjoy…

https://vimeo.com/214925535

Cheers!

Trevor

 

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi Trevor! How are you?

Thanks a million for the history of names and personalities in the last few years of home baking and Internet publishing re: folding and laminating techniques. Your names for techniques and crumb styles are very catchy and descriptive, including swaddling. I like them all.

Many thanks for the collection of videos provided as well. The one from August 21, 2018 gives us hope, for sure, LOL. That dough looked like it was beyond salvation, yet it has risen. Your magical touch did it! :))))

https://www.instagram.com/p/BmwbSu6Hkwi/

👍👍👍

💖💖💖

The film about Adam's journey as a baker is so poetic and shows step by step how he makes bread, including his coiling style. He "jellyrolls" it first, then rotates and coil folds it. Shown starting at 1:30min.

Please, remember to come back here and complete your talk about folding routines, how to design them with purpose in mind, and about underlying mechanisms of gluten formation and development, dough strength, and balancing act between elasticity and extensibility. We are waiting!

Thank you.

m.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

It would be ridiculous for me to try any substantive comment, Trevor.  One of so many, I know, just to offer a heartfelt thank you for your book and for all your generosity otherwise in your many posts and videos.  Right now it's just the tongue-tip's taste, the chasm between a concept lodged in the brain and true knowing, in the hands.  Yet the struggle to embody all this is a good one.  

Foundational.  Thank you, Trevor.