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Trevor 80% peasant loaf - slack throughout

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Trevor 80% peasant loaf - slack throughout

Hello,

Not sure if I'll get any thoughts before I have to end bulk and begin pre-shape, but I've been having uneven results in terms of dough strength using the mixing methods shown in Trevor's video.  Not a dough that develops to strength, but remains slack and hard to handle throughout the period of the bulk ferment: 6 hours at 76F.

I can take the dough pH to get an idea of where we are in terms of acid development, but I don't know the target.  End of bulk pH?

The other thing I'll mention is that unless I've just spaced, I inoculated levain at Trevor's level of 12% of flour (baker's percentage of the main make - not total with levain).  About half my usual practice.

So, despite seeing evidence of fermentation - jiggly, visible bubbles - I am getting no strength love on folding and I find I'm trying to game out the acid strength/gluten denature balance point by folding many more than a simple envelope (i.e., maybe 12 folds, gently made, as opposed to a simple 4 folds).  I am accepting I may be knocking back gas too much despite trying for gentle, if considerable, folding.

At 6 hours, just not satisfied.  Currently rolling into 6.5 hours and another fold.  I am loathe to take it much further but if there's a target pH I could parse, it may be telling.

Thoughts?  At 12% levain inoculation is 6 hours reasonably too short (despite Trevor's being done at 6 hours)?  My starter with 1:2:2 makeup gets to about 2.5X at 76F and 6 hours, so I don't think the starter is weak.

Puzzled.  I am really wanting to perfect a pain au levain, and the inconsistent bulk and strength results have me stumped.  Any thoughts appreciated,

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

To add, I broke the 30 minute bench rest at 15 minutes for a rather tighter pre-shape again, and will let it rest to 30 minutes, shape, and proof x 2 hours (likely).  There is better elasticity, so I'm hopeful.

Benito's picture
Benito

I have to admit that I cannot handle doing enough Rubaud to fully develop a dough to be baked as a hearth loaf, I just cannot do it.  Instead I use slap and folds, which I know Trevor Wilson doesn’t like as I think he finds it too violent and not gentle to the dough, but Rubauds just don’t do it for me unless it is baguettes where I don’t develop the gluten much.  I have taken to doing enough slap and folds until my dough can achieve a good windowpane.

Regarding pH, I do know a few bakers that use pH targets for when to use a levain/starter and end of bulk and baking.

Levain or starter is ready at pH 3.8

End bulk at pH 4.4

Bake at pH 4.1

I think that is the information that you’re looking for.

Benny

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Great info, thanks Benito.  The Rubaud technique inspires me, if only to justify finding a used Artifax somewhere, lol.

I do like the Bertinet method and will give it some practice with this one.  

Thanks too on the pH targets.  Very helpful.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Not the greatest spring, but I think a decent result given some of the strengthening issue.  For reference's sake, 63% Central Milling's Baker's Craft Plus, 25% Hi-Pro medium WW, 12% Dark Rye.  80% hydration, overnight autolyse with salt and chilled water, left to rise to room temp of 70F.  Rubaud and set temp at 76F, x 6.5 hours bulk, 2 hours proof.

Benito's picture
Benito

The fermentation looks good based on the crumb.  I wonder if the hydration is a bit too high for your location and flours.  This may have caused the dough to seem so loose and not able to strengthen.

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks for the note, Benny. I think you're right, hadn't even considered that.  Interestingly, this morning's bake - 10% WW, the rest Central Milling's BF, with a 2-hour autolyse, levain, 1/2 hr rest, salt; very strong dough very quickly.  So much so I had almost no slack to work with and very little development (I chose Bertinet this time) needed to be done.

1/2 hr gaps are showing strength - dough is quite elastic.  Same hydration, 80%.  Outside of the lesser whole grain, it would be interesting to understand this better in terms of humidity and hydration, as you point up.

One thing that occurs to me - is it possible this pain au levain has simply undertaken too lengthy an autolyse?  Though I use room temp fermentation temp, chilled water and include salt for this overnight autolyse, it remains that the autolyse is quite lengthy, upwards of 12 hours.  Based on how well today's shorter autolyse has done its job, I'd bet I'm way over in terms of the autolyse length here.

Benito's picture
Benito

It is certainly possible your saltolyse is too long.  During autolyse we want to fully hydrate the flour, for all white that can be 30 mins, for 100% whole grain that can be a couple of hours.  We also want the amylase to start working on the starch to break some of it down to sugars (maltose in particular) that the microbes can use as food to replicate creating our flavour compounds and gas to raise our dough.  But if amylase activity is excessive then your can have a gummy crumb.  I’ll often do an overnight saltolyse and also make sure I start with fridge temperature water and let it go overnight and so far it has worked for me, however, I’ve never gone 12 hours, that might also have contributed to your issue.

Benny

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Thanks Benny.  I was actually doing it exactly as Trevor shows, with a few hours in the fridge then left out.  I'm basically just playing, now - using chilled water and all the salt I'm hopeful it will provide a good balance of desired proteolytic and amylatic changes (the geek in me would love to learn more of the breakdown of a- and b-amylases in such a lengthy, cooler autolyse) while retarding or inhibiting damaging proteolytic/slack development.  Might not be optimal, or even beneficial at all - I see Danny and others tried Trevor's Champlain with its overnight autolyse, with less than stellar results.  If after this one tomorrow does this, I'll start pulling back.

Edit:  Trevor himself doesn't advise doing the overnight "Pre-Mix," cold, salted or not, it seems, for highly hydrated dough:

"I should give you a bit of warning here: using the premix method isn’t the best process for wet doughs like this. In this recipe I call for a standard autolyse instead of premixing the dough. The reason I don’t recommend premixing wet doughs is because it tends to make them weak and soupy. The point of premixing is to fully develop a dough with minimal mixing, and to increase the dough’s extensibility.

But wet doughs are already very extensible. So they become weak instead.

And they’re more prone to wild fermentation and enzymatic activity which could potentially produce off flavors. Premixing is best suited for stiffer doughs, while wet doughs are better off with a 1-2 hour autolyse instead."  

I should give you a bit of warning here: using the premix method isn’t the best process for wet doughs like this. In this recipe I call for a standard autolyse instead of premixing the dough. The reason I don’t recommend premixing wet doughs is because it tends to make them weak and soupy. The point of premixing is to fully develop a dough with minimal mixing, and to increase the dough’s extensibility.

But wet doughs are already very extensible. So they become weak instead.

And they’re more prone to wild fermentation and enzymatic activity which could potentially produce off flavors. Premixing is best suited for stiffer doughs, while wet doughs are better off with a 1-2 hour autolyse instead."

 

-brings me to rethink a couple things, anyway - I'm a fan of deep flavor but levains on the sweeter (i.e., less souring) side.  I've done as low as 1% starter inoculations, with some interesting but inconclusive results.  Though I suspect the salting helps dampen any off-flavors and infestations, I have no idea.

 

As to the effect of "underpitching" the starter, this, too, is a bit interesting to me as I think on it ore. 

I can only compare with brewing, as it's what I have a better grasp of in terms of microbiology and biochemistry, but imagine the same might obtain - you would know this, I suspect.  But deliberate underpitching, which encourages heavier replication cycles and attendant by-products, can be cool, but it sure stresses the yeast and can easily go bonkers in terms of esters, sulfurous compounds, etc.  IIRC at the regional brewery where I worked (Goose Island), we used to do this with the kolsch, and might have been on some pilsner iterations (more on the Czech, sulfury model...but my memory is lousy for that far back).

I'm terminally playing with dancing variables, and have to guard against it.  I really want to perfect a kind of flagship home levain, this pain au levain.  So I think I'd be wise to stop playing with my food and get back to basics which here, means I'll go back a 2-hour autolyse and a 20-25% levain inoculation.

headupinclouds's picture
headupinclouds

Thanks for sharing that.  I've often wondered about best practice hydration of soakers in whole-grain breads, and have gravitated towards very low hydration overnight refrigerated soakers (60-65%), with bassinage for the final mix, as it has been my very informal hunch that this tends to produce stronger dough.  It is nice to see this confirmed from a credible source.

ArthurF's picture
ArthurF

I make the same loaf and noticed when I read the comments on his site that he said that he miss spoke and you should only autolyse for a max I think 4-5 hours

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Great pickup, thanks, Arthur.  Things improved today with the 2-hr autolyse.  A good place to stay awhile, this bread - a good teacher. 

You can see I obviously have some issues in shaping and reading proper proof -  I think in trying to preserve the gas buildup from the bulk I erred on the too-conservative side during shaping (I think - one reason for the tunnels?), and at 3:15 hours proof I think I convinced myself it was properly proofed, when it likely had plenty of room left. 

 

It's a delicious bread to focus on with it's intrinsic challenges.  Do you enjoy yours?

 

 

ArthurF's picture
ArthurF

It is one of our favorites but we really love his Champlain loaf. That is the one most requested. Making one right now as I write this. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Awesome.  It's funny because I am perpetually on the hunt for a "right way in," meaning, a sort of self-imposed course of study rooted in what I think are pretty fundamental techniques.  Eternal student.  Hamelman has always been my guide over the years but I am seriously geeked about hand-mixing these more highly hydrated doughs.

I'm trying to convince myself it's not sacrilegious to put Jeffrey back up on the shelf, and work the hell out of Trevor's approach, with just his "case study" breads, plenty to keep me busy for a long, long time.

I guess I am posing a leading question.  How "fundamental" do you see these breads being?  Do you see them as worthy of a standalone education, whether experienced or not, or do you see them as something you come to after you've spent some serious and dedicated time with Hamelman, Reinhart, Mussio, etc., the "fundamental" or "building block" texts of popular acclaim?

In a word - yourself, anyone from the community - do you see Hamelman or another one of the "teachers" to be a necessary set of building blocks, "walking," and these breads by Wilson, Robertson, Forkish to be most fruitfully undertaken only after burning a hole in one of the aforementioned teachers' books and teachings?

 

ArthurF's picture
ArthurF

Yes. I have decided to stick with his loaf for the next month and see if I can get better results. So easy for me to bounce around form recipe to recipe. I need to work on technique. Not familiar with the names you mention but now I have something to look up. Have you purchased Trevors ebook. Really well done with lots of info. 

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

I hear you - I'm exactly the same way, Arthur.  Focus would be an improvement.  Kudos to you.

I LOVE his e-book!  Pouring over it right now, actually - and pre-mixing the Champlain dough in a minute!