The Fresh Loaf

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Well fermented dough jiggle

Benito's picture
Benito

Well fermented dough jiggle

This has come up quite a bit recently with a lot of the newer bakers so I’d thought I’d upload a video showing the jiggle of a well fermented dough.  This is a seven grain sourdough just before shaping, my aliquot jar indicates that it has risen about 60% (aliquot jar overestimates the rise of the main dough).  This dough has 31% inclusions so that will negatively affect the jiggle, without inclusions at this degree of rise the jiggle would be even greater.

Other signs of good fermentation are the domed edge at the sides of the bowl.  If there were no inclusions you would also see more fermentation bubbles.

justkeepswimming's picture
justkeepswimming

Thank you for this Benny. Very helpful!

Benito's picture
Benito

I’m glad you found it helpful, I wish I had seen something like this a year and three quarters ago when I was starting out.  I’m sure it is here somewhere on this site, but I never saw it.  Hope it helps your next bake hit that perfect jiggle/fermentation.

Benny

HeiHei29er's picture
HeiHei29er

Perfect video Benny!  Will use it as a reference this weekend.

Benito's picture
Benito

Just remember a dough without the inclusions will have a bit more jiggle!

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Benny, thanks!

The video doesn't play for me at this time but I've seen the jiggle before.

I'd love to talk about cold dough. It certainly will not jiggle straight out of the refrigerator and yet, people report great results baking cold dough.

How does that work? Wouldn't a warm-up and then check for jiggle or other signs of proper fermentation be better?

Unless, of course, they've done many experiments over time to get their own method just right...

The whole retarding dough thing still boggles my mind. Do you or anyone else have any thoughts? Like, maybe a TFL search? :)

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Murph, the purpose of the video was to show the dough at the end of bulk fermentation when it wasn’t cold from the fridge.  If you were to chill it, the jiggle would be greatly reduced.  I don’t have any experience with chilling my dough during bulk fermentation.  Once shaped I then do a cold retard for final proofing.  I haven’t intentionally jiggled my dough after cold retard but it would be much stiffer.  You’re right, baking the dough cold from the fridge is a great way of getting good oven spring. At this point you’re well past the point that you need to do a jiggle test, that is just for the end of bulk.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Thank you, Benny.

I got it now. The jiggle test is for bulk fermentation.

I am going to try your aliquot jar with this weekend's bake.

Do I cut my piece off to put in the jar before developing gluten or after? I would imagine after all the stretch and folds or whatever manipulation I'm doing, right?

Or... I suppose "whenever," as long as I'm consistent from bake to bake?

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Benny.

I did a quick Google search for how to use an aliqout jar for bread.

Your article came up first. :)

Aliquot Jar to determine bulk fermentation rise.

That should answer my own questions.

Thank you for your patience.

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

No problem Murph, glad you found my original detailed post.  But a quick summary, you do need to develop the gluten before removing the dough for the aliquot jar.  Really underdeveloped dough will not hold gases as well as well developed dough so it would not rise as well.  I usually aim to develop the gluten well early on now and then remove the dough after the first fold.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Thank you for the additional color, Benny.

I agree with developing gluten early on. I'm working on perfecting the Hamelman recipe (top one) for my conditions at home.

This recipe is 65% hydration. It calls for two series of slap and folds followed by some stretch and folds.

I find the slap and folds to be impossible because of low hydration and low dough weight (1,000 g). I've been hand-kneading instead.

I've been increasing the hand-kneading time to see if I get a stronger gluten network. I am at 10 minutes knead, rest 10 minutes. Repeat one more time.

Can I over-knead?

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

It is theoretically possible to over hand knead, but I suspect most normal humans will tire long before they over-knead and oxidize the dough compromising flavour.  That being said, certain flours don’t like excessive handling, Einkorn for example gets stickier and sticker with more handling so you could over-knead einkorn.

phaz's picture
phaz

The jiggle test is valid through all stages of the process. Enjoy! 

Benito's picture
Benito

Right but the jiggle at each stage particularly after a cold retard will look different from what I demonstrated. 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, phaz.

You anticipated my question! Thank you.

So, you're saying that I should get the same jiggle even at the proof stage, huh? Once it warms up, that is. At room temperature....

Also, a question for you and everyone else...

When we talk about "developing gluten" or building it or whatever, we are talking about all the slaps, stretches and folds that we do, right?

I ask this because I cut my teeth on the 123 Bread where it just sits around during bulk and makes its own gluten. I beat that recipe to DEATH and now that thing is stuck in my brain.

Developing gluten is almost foreign to me this go around!

Sorry for the rookie questions. Even about the jiggle part. 

Murph

phaz's picture
phaz

Jiggle is valid for all stages, cold dough, your on your own. Developing gluten, any manipulation of the dough helps gluten - how much varies depending on the method, some do little to nothing, some do more than that. I would advise an understanding of gluten, which would include it's formation - then you can decide the worthiness of a particular method (this will also answer the question of how a no knead bread works, like your 123). Enjoy! 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Yes, you're right. I would benefit from a firmer grasp on gluten development.

I'm going to search around a bit on this.

Thank you for your help, phaz! I appreciate it!

Murph

phaz's picture
phaz

More than you think! 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Yes... without good gluten development, we don't have good bread.

Thank you again! I'm starting to come around to the importance of gluten development.

I've been looking at fermentation fairly heavily but now, I'm concerned with the gluten. Your nudge sets me in the right direction.

You and Benny and so many others have been so very helpful and patient. Just so many good bakers that I hesitate to name any one or two because I leave out a crowd of others. But it is all so very much appreciated!

Just by asking questions and, as Abe and DanAyo will remind me.... just stop for a second and learn something! Even just by osmosis, it all sinks in.

This sourdough thing is amazing! What a science experiment and endlessly fascinating. 

Thank you, again!

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Hi, Benny!

I have my first aliquot jar going. I have 5% of my dough in a small, straight-sided measuring cup. It looks like I'm at about the 40 ml line.

Clearly, I need more experience working out the air pockets at the bottom of the jar! The dough just stuck to my fingers the more I tried poking it down. Then I wet my fingers. That helped a bit. Then I wet the inside of the jar. 

All hope was lost! :)

What's your technique?

And... I guess the plan here is to watch the dough, not the clock or jar. When I get my bulk to where it jiggles, note the rise in the jar and adjust for next time.

Pretty neat!

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

I put about 5-10 cc of water into the jar first.  Then with your wet finger(s) you’ll press the dough down into the jar.  The dough will displace water gradually better than it seems to displace air.  I pour off the water as it gets displaced on top of the dough.  Eventually you’ll get the water all removed from the far below the dough.  If you leave a bit on top it can make reading the rise easier.

Then you start watching both the dough and the aliquot jar and together they will teach you what well fermented dough looks like.  When you bake this bread, hopefully you’ll have noted the aliquot jar rise.  If you feel that the bread could have used more bulk and your aliquot jar was x% rise, then next time you can adjust and go for x + 5-10% greater rise.  Each time you do this observing what the dough was like when you hit your ideal crumb and aliquot rise you’ll learn what the dough should look and feel like when nicely bulk fermented.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Benny,

Thank you. It is really nice of you to help me out. Very patient of you and generous with your time.

It's so interesting that you leave a touch of water on top for easier reading. You would have thought that the water is absorbed by the dough but as I continue to read (this time!) your earlier article, this is a non-issue.

That's a great idea! Hmph.

This aliquot jar is fascinating! I seem to be more interested in the fermentation aspect than the baking part but good bread is a nice bonus.

As an aside... Did you notice how I come in with questions that have already been answered or start doing stuff without reading or listening to advice? I've only recently begun to notice this in myself. It's just the funniest thing...

You should see the havoc I wreak in the classroom as I learn about electronics! "Hey, what's that smoke over there?" Yeeks!

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Benny,

Good GRIEF am I a linear thinker or WHAT?

I answered my own question on your technique by just reading a little further.... <sigh>

Updating how I’m currently using the aliquot jar.

Sorry about that and thank you for your patience.

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

No problem Murph, glad to help when I actually can.

Looking forward to your next bake.

Benny

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

I thought I'd share my aliquot jar after about a 2-hour retard. I started at the 40 mil line. This is 65% hydration.

Some have noticed a fall in theirs but I think I actually got an extra 10 mil on mine.

I will let my dough warm up for an hour and a half or so and preshape, shape and bake.

I'd like to see if I get a bit of jiggle out of this after it warms a bit. I'll probably bake pancakes but it's all part of the learning process.

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Murph, do you know the actual temperature of your fridge?  Have to tested it with a glass of water left on the shelf that you retard your dough on?  

Fingers crossed for a loaf with a lofty rise.

Benny

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Yeah... I get about 5°C (41°F) on the top shelf and pull about 3°C (38°F) on the bottom. The dough was on the bottom.

I think it takes about 10 hours for the dough to reach equilibrium.

The dough was crawling out of the bowl. Highest I've ever seen. Probably overproofed. Still cool after two hour warm up. Just preshaped. It's not a gloppy mess. Seems to be holding up. I'm baking pretty soon, though! :)

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

The dough in the aliquot jar is a much lower mass than the main dough so it will come down to temperature quite quickly.  It still surprises me that you saw any rise in your aliquot jar, it makes me think that your fridge temperature is higher than what you state above....

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Now you have me worried... :)

I fermented 1000 g and divided in half. The first dough saw a very nice oven spring. The second half is going in in an hour after the first one. It'll be interesting to see the difference.

I took fairly good (for me) notes this time. Which is nice.

By the way... I have this allegedly super-accurate scientific thermometer that floats in water. Has a calibration that traces back to some government something. That means squat from what I read.

The problem with trying to read it is that it fogs up after taking it out of the refrigerator or even opening the door. Kind of useless if you can't read it.

I went back to the standard KitchenAide specifically for low temperatures. 

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

You would think that with the jar showing that much rise, I've taken the dough to the limit.

I've baked two 500 g loaves tonight - an hour apart. I see signs of under-proofing: A bulge under the crust that indicates the classic large bubbles of under-proofed dough. <sigh>

I'm dying to see if I'm right! Argh! ? I hate this waiting part.

Murph

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

That should read "after about a 20-hour retard."

phaz's picture
phaz

Think of retarding as the gluten formation stage. With minimal activity all that's left is the formation of gluten. At optimal temps, a dough can be degraded by biological activity before gluten is fully formed. Retarding is a method to reduce that likelihood. Enjoy! 

Benito's picture
Benito

Actually I like to think of retarding the dough more as a flavour development step than gluten development. Hopefully during bulk you have developed your gluten. 

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Phaz,

Doesn't cold temps bring lacto bacteria to the table and isn't the bacteria responsible for eating gluten?

Now, the first thing you and I would say is yeah, but 12-24 hours wouldn't make a difference but the host of The Sourdough Journey on YouTube ran an experiment going out five days on The Long, Cold Proof.

His tang actually mellowed out a bit. His loaf flattened just a touch but not unacceptably so.

Now I'm not so sure that lacto bacteria breaks down gluten - at least in the refrigerator. Maybe at room temperature because of the speed at which it happens?

Exponential growth is fascinating. Yeast reproduces by doubling. At the very end... the peak of fermentation - we are maybe six doublings away from soup. Proofing on the counter is dangerous! Which is why the refrigerator is useful.

Anyway... I do like your thought about how the dough forms gluten all by itself. I did the 123 Bread for quite some time and saw that with my own eyes. It was very cool!

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Murph, the LAB do not break down the gluten, it is the proteolytic enzymes that do it.  However, as the pH approaches and drops below 4 the proteolytic enzymes become more active.  So of course the LAB contribute to the pH falling and thus speeding up proteolysis but they themselves are not the cause of gluten breakdown.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Benny, thank you.

And the LAB creates that enzyme, correct?

And, as pH goes down the LAB reproduce faster than the yeast.

Same with cold, right? LAB reproduce faster than yeast? More cold, more LAB.

And it's the enzyme that gives the sour flavor, not the LAB themselves, no?

I think I have that part right.

Now, I agree with phaz that I should learn a little more about gluten. I understand that it is a network of strands of protein that is found in flour. The yeast will pull this protein out of the flour all by themselves. But they just make a gluten cloud.

When we stretch and slap and fold, we coerce more protein and, significantly, align the gluten network into a grid pattern in hopes of trapping more gas into the grid.

The more slapping, the more protein is pulled out. The more stretching, the longer the strand. The more folding, the more grid lines. Grid upon grid upon grid... we hope to trap those gas bubbles. 

The strand is a mystery... some doughs you can stretch a fair bit. Others you can't. Something like extensibility means how long you can stretch the dough strand. Elasticity pertains to whether the dough strand pulls the dough back together. What affects these characteristics?

Not to put my questions onto you, Benny. You have been over-the-top generous with your time and patience with me. Thank you.

If I haven't exhausted everybody... How far off am I on any of this?

Thank you!

Murph

Benito's picture
Benito

Murph, my understanding is that the cereal proteases are the prominent proteases in our dough rather than proteases excreted by the LAB.  

Also as the pH drops the LAB are actually inhibited more than the yeast.

The enzymes do not give the bread/starter the sour flavour, it is mainly the lactic and acetic acid that contribute most of the sour flavour or acidity.

The gluten forms when water is added to the flour.  We help organize the gluten into a network that can then trap the gases produced by the yeast and the LAB (AAB also in fact based on newer research).  We help develop and organize this gluten network through our kneading/folds.  Time alone without any mechanical manipulations will also allow gluten to form, but it won’t be as organized without the baker’s mechanical manipulation.

Each flour has various quality of gluten.  Spelt for example has a very extensible gluten.  How we handle the dough can also affect the elasticity vs extensibility.  What we add to the dough will also affect this, salt for example tightens up the dough.  Acid also tightens up the dough however, over time with low enough acid the proteolytic enzymes will breakdown our gluten network and weaken the structure.

This is my understanding of some of the questions you have asked, if I am incorrect please forgive me and hopefully a more knowledgeable baker will provide the answers you seek.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Ahhh... I get it! The enzymes come from the flour and not as a waste product of the bacteria!

And... cold DOES slow LAB but... how does cold increase sour? Like... where does the acid come from?

I understand that 23 °C (73 °F) to about 27 °C (80 °F) is the sweet spot for yeast. Hotter makes a mellower tang, colder makes a tarter tang. Or the other way around. But when does the acid come from if not the bacteria?

And it's all LAB, right?

That's science. That's going to be a bugger. I'll just accept that at face value.

My folding needs work, though.

I've been doing the semolina CB (which speaks to different flours) and when I fold, I'll grab one end of the dough and fold it all the way over to the other end. I can't fold the other side.

I can't grab the other side and make it stretch all the way over to the opposite side. The dough is too tight.

Should only be folding to the center? Grab one end and fold to the center? Grab the opposite end and fold THAT to the center?

Given my experience, that would make more sense but am I weak in the center now?

Good grief, man... some people should just be kept away from flour and water! ?

Hmph.

BXMurphy's picture
BXMurphy

Wait. It's the ENZYMES themselves that taste sour, right! 

Murph

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Enzymes don't taste like anything - the role of enzymes is their enzymatic activity. They break down the flour: starch (which turns into sugar, which is then consumed by the yeast and bacteria) and protein (which breaks down gluten, therefore if you hydrate flour eventually it will break down and will be a complete mess).

citygirlbaker's picture
citygirlbaker

My friend recently asked me about the jiggle.  Will share your video.  Thanks Benny!!

Benito's picture
Benito

You’re very welcome CGB!

tttt1010's picture
tttt1010

Hi Benny! Can you explain a bit more on how you know the aliquot jar overestimate the rise?

Benito's picture
Benito

Well after the initial fold the dough in the aliquot jar no longer gets any further handling.  Anytime you handle a dough, it will degas somewhat.  So assuming you built decent gluten at the beginning so that the dough in the aliquot jar can trap most of the gas that it produces as it ferments, it will rise faster than the main dough that is getting folds and thus degassing a bit each time it is handled during bulk fermentation.

Benny

tttt1010's picture
tttt1010

Thanks! Do you think that proper fermentation is determined by the rise of the aliquot? As in will degassing create the same crumb structure as the aliquot but with smaller overall holes?

Benito's picture
Benito

The dough handling may cause some of the gas bubbles to disappeared and others to coalesce together into larger ones so in fact the bubble structure will likely be different from the aliquot jar. 

pmccool's picture
pmccool

I degas the aliquot dough before final fermentation, so that it starts at the same point as the shaped dough.  Makes life a lot easier in assessing fermentation progress. 

Paul

Benito's picture
Benito

So Paul, do you take the dough out of the aliquot jar after you have done final shaping and shape to degas or just squash it down with your fingers?  I actually just leave it in and just continue to see how much more it rises if I do some bench rest prior to cold fermentation.

pmccool's picture
pmccool

I use an aliquot jar for the final proof and not for the bulk ferment.  So, after degassing the dough, I pull off a piece for the jar and shape the rest.  That gives both the jar and the loaves about the same starting point.  Close enough, anyway.

For your situation, I'd say you could go in either of a couple directions with about the same effect.  You could leave the dough in the jar and degas it by x amount that more or less parallels what the main dough mass experiences.  Or you could fish it out of the jar, combine it with the main dough for degassing/shaping, then put a fresh piece back in the jar.

Whichever way you choose, having both the jar and the loaves start final fermentation at same (very nearly) degree of inflation/deflation means that the jar will give you a reasonably useful indication of what's going on in the loaves.

Paul