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Sourdough Not Leavening Enriched Doughs

cskorton's picture
cskorton

Sourdough Not Leavening Enriched Doughs

Hi All,

I'm currently maintaining both a liquid 100% hydration sourdough starter and an Italian style stiff starter at 50% hydration (Lievito Madre).  I've successfully used both to leaven whole grain bread, pizza dough, and other savory applications, but for some reason both starters can't seem to leaven enriched doughs. 

I've tried brioche and panettone multiple times, left to rise in a 82 degrees F oven, and the starters do not rise at all.  I know enriched doughs are more challenging to leaven because of the sugar and butter, but I wasn't expecting my starters not to work at all especially since they worked nicely for savory applications.  Before using, i make sure to refresh them 3 times to make sure they are extra active.  Both starters are about a month old.

Any ideas on why this is occurring and how to resolve the issue?

Thanks,  

 

Meat5000's picture
Meat5000 (not verified)

After kneading sourdoughs I usually do first rise in the fridge overnight. My sourdough yeasts take at least twice as long to work as industrial types. They work nicely at lower temperatures.

As a note though...SourDoughnuts are not nice. I would not be tempted to use sour starter to make enriched doughs unless counteracting the flavour with honey or half quantity dry yeast.

Meat5000's picture
Meat5000 (not verified)

If your starter does not expand after feeding it is dead. Adding some sugar with your flour and water may revive it and you should feed it daily for a while, removing some of the old starter each time.

Jochem's picture
Jochem

Hi there, 

I'm struggling with the same. I've tried baking a couple of recipes from the book New World Sourdough and I'm experiencing the exact same thing as you are: I've baked dozens of non-enriched sourdough breads, which all turn out great. But when I make an enriched dough with the same sourdough starter, it doesn't rise at all. 

So I was hoping: have you found any fixes or answers to this problem? I've had to throw away too many unrisen doughs already... 

Thanks in advance! 

ahbramey's picture
ahbramey

I actually just made a post about how I tried the choco pan de coco from Artisan Bryan's book and it COMPLETELY did not turn out...and then remembered someone else posted about a similar issue here. I thought the issue with the choco pan de coco was that it was nowhere near hydrated enough and that's the root of my problems, but now I'm wondering if it has more to do with using sourdough for enriched breads. 

Which of his recipes did you try that didn't work?

So sad, I think this is the first bread I've made that is completely inedible. :( smells great though.

ahbramey's picture
ahbramey

I made a separate post about my troubles with an Artisan Bryan recipe and user BeanToes told me some of the recipes in the book are misprinted. See the list of corrections here: https://www.artisanbryan.com/post/new-world-sourdough-clarifications-and-faq

Maybe this will help both of us have better success next time! 

Jochem's picture
Jochem

Apologies for the late reply - I had a baby born, who took up all my time :) But the recipes that failed from the book were the bananas foster sourdough, the cinny raisin bagels and the semitas de yema. The mallorcas suffered largely from the same problem but had a slightly good froof, which made them turn out half decent. 

I already found the list of corrections on the website. I even found another error in one of the recipes that was not mentioned in the list of corrections... And I took the corrections into account when baking, but that didn't help. The book really disappoints me so far; a lot of potential, sloppy execution. 

Since I don't really have time to bake the long-duration recipes from the book (because of the baby), I'm afraid much practice won't be possible. Hopefully I can find some time to bake again soon! 

ahbramey's picture
ahbramey

What a happy reason to be late to reply :) 

Sorry to hear the corrections don't seem to help. I hope to do some more experimenting with the book - someone on the other thread said they had success with the book after finding the corrections. I'll report back with my results!

ahbramey's picture
ahbramey

I attempted the bananas foster sourdough recipe over the past couple days. I followed the recipe except I used homemade vegan butter (coconut & sunflower oil base) instead of dairy butter, canned coconut milk thinned out with water instead of whole milk, and a flax egg (1 tbsp flaxmeal + 3 tbsp water) instead of a chicken egg. For the room temp proofs, I did it in my oven with the light turned on (room temp at my house right now is about 65 degrees F). I got a pretty good rise on it throughout the process so I was feeling pretty good about it when it was time to bake. I only have glass loaf tins (I know, metal is better) so that's what I used. Baking is where we ran into some problems. The topping prevented the middle of the bread from cooking/rising, so eventually I had to move some of it to the sides and then the middle finally popped up and started baking. I also had some trouble with the topping leaking out and dripping into the bottom of my oven. It took about double the time it said in the recipe to bake and still was a bit raw deep into the middle of the bread when I finally had to take it out because the topping was burning (but then again, the recipe does acknowledge that the bread needs to fully cool before you cut into it to give the parts surrounding the filling time to finish cooking). I ended up leaving it in my turned off, but still warm oven, for a few more minutes before taking it out to cool for many hours in the loaf pan on a wire rack. 

As you can see, it's a bit dense overall and underbaked around the filling. The top is also...not very appetizing-looking, lol. That said, it does taste good. I would make it again with some modifications (maybe splitting into 2 smaller loaves?, perhaps doing the full time for the final proof (I did 4 hours instead of 6 since it seemed ready at that point), ideally baking in a metal tin perhaps with a baking stone or something underneath to help it cook in the middle, and a change in the topping so it doesn't inhibit the oven spring). 

I would say this was a successful attempt at an enriched sourdough bread, though it wasn't executed perfectly.

Jochem's picture
Jochem

Very interesting to read your extensive experience with the recipe! And I got to say: with all the vegan adaptations you made, it is even more impressive how your bananas foster sourdough has turned out. While I also see the points of improvement you mentioned, I think you did quite a good job! 

I've also been busy baking in the meantime, and I seem to have a lot of the same experiences. But I've also applied some tips a got from a different thread on this forum about a different issue, and these seem to have helped. Perhaps they may also work for you. 

First some pics of my bananas foster sourdough: 

As you can see, I got a pretty good rise this time. Previous attempts had failed to get any rise at all. As you can also see: the top of the loaf is flattened because of the weight of the topping, same as you described. I baked it for 50 minutes (somewhat longer than the recipe prescribes) with aluminum foil above (I can hook the foil on a rack in my microwave oven, so that it floats above the loaf), to prevent the topping from burning - also the same as you described. So while I'm still struggling with the weight and bake of the topping, I'm very satisfied with this bake. 

What I think helped to get a better rise (these tips I mentioned): not adding all the ingredients to the dough mix at once. Especially fats can apparently prevent your sourdough starter from binding with the flours and water. In other words: the sourdough does not have access to its food. So what I currently do when baking from New World Sourdough is doing the mixing in 3 steps: 1) mix the starter with the flour and water, then 10 minutes rest. 2) mix in the sugars and eggs, then 10 minutes rest again. 3) mix in the fats (butter, oil, etc.) and salt. Then I do the prescribed kneading method, if needed. This really seems to work. The dough always feels more supple and smooth, compared to when I mix all ingredients at once, and the rise is better. 

Another thing that really helps is doing the final proof in a warm environment, around 30 degrees Celcius (86 F). I put the dough in my microwave oven with a cup of hot water. This gives quite some growth to the dough right before baking. This worked best with smaller breads, like the 'semitas de yema' (see pics below) and 'mallorcas'. While there's still room for improvement in getting a good rise, I think these adjustments work quite well. 

It's a shame that the book New World Sourdough requires several adaptations in order to get a good result. I've never had this with other recipe books. But I have to admit: when the recipes succeed, the breads are delicious! That's what really keeps me motivated, and I'm glad to see you write that your bananas foster sourdough also tasted good! 

ahbramey's picture
ahbramey

Wow, your bananas foster sourdough really puts mine to shame! It looks absolutely gorgeous. I will borrow from your methods next time I try it out (I currently have nearly a dozen bananas in my freezer, so I will need some ways to use them!). It especially makes sense to hear the stages in which you add the ingredients to the dough - will be trying that with the recipes in his book as well. 

cskorton's picture
cskorton

I’m afraid I have no answers yet. I started using sourdough again recently and have been experiencing the same problems. 

There is an excellent sourdough bakery by me and just today they were kind enough to lend me a piece of their starter that is 100% hydration. I’m going to slowly turn it into 50% hydration and see if that works any better. In talking with the baker, she mentioned that she has to use a little commercial yeast in her croissant and puff pastry dough to get a little extra rising power that her starter couldn’t provide on its own, so seems we’re not alone here.

Starting tomorrow I’ll also try to make panettone with the bakery’s 100% hydration starter just to see if it works. I’ll let you know how it goes in a few days when the process is complete.

Jochem's picture
Jochem

Thanks for your reply! And to you as well: apologies for the late reply from my end - I had to deal with a newborn baby :) Sad to hear that you haven't really found any solutions yet. I guess we just need to keep on baking and keep on gaining experience. 

Fun to hear about the kindness of your local bakery. I love how passionate and kind the whole baking community is, both amateurs and professionals. How has the panettone turned out? Any luck with the starter from the bakery? 

ws.hicks's picture
ws.hicks

I just ran into the same problem which, to be honest, I kinda knew it in the back of my mind but tried to refuse to believe my starter couldn’t handle it.

The possible answer as to why, according to this thread, could be sugar concentration. I couldn’t figure how to fix it yet without using commercial yeast  though.

cskorton's picture
cskorton

I ended making two panettones, both of which failed. I used my “adopted” starter from the baker, and covered half to 47% hydration and the other to 100% hydration. The stiff starter failed to rise at all, but the liquid starter rose beautifully!

However, the liquid starter panettone collapsed by the end of baking, tragically. So the good news is, now I know it’s not my starter. The bad news is it’s either one of two things I suspect. (1) I need stronger flour. Italian recipes call for W350-W400 flour which I believe is 14%+ protein content. I only used KAF bread flour which is something like 12.7% or (2) I let the second rise go too long. It suggested 8 hours, but I went for broke and stretched it 12 hours. 

I’m sorry as I know this doesn’t answer your question, but in the end, it’s because your starter just isn’t strong enough, I think. I don’t know how to strengthen it. Maybe use really nice whole grain local flour and keep it around a temperature of 80 Fahrenheit? I’m not sure, hoping somebody else can help. 

Jochem's picture
Jochem

Good to hear that your starter is not the problem ✌️ Sad to hear that the panettones failed of course. But I have to say, panettones are notoriously difficult. I've seen on Instagram many skilled bakers failing in making panettones, so I'm not sure if panettone is the best test. Hopefully you've had more luck with other, simpler enriched breads?