The Fresh Loaf

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Sourdough Sandwich Bread Troubleshooting

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Sourdough Sandwich Bread Troubleshooting

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Hi TFL Community,

To the many experienced bakers in this forum. Could you please help me to troubleshoot the issues with this sandwich bread sample? 

(please see attached picture)

 

I began experiencing issues with my sandwich bread a few weeks ago when I started using a brand new commercial convection oven. I never faced anything similar when using my old standard oven. (My new convection oven has its heat elements in the back, and operates in convection mode all-the-time).

Issues

1) There is always a small portion of uncooked dough at the loaf's bottom center despite the insertion thermometer showing 207 to 208 F after 37 minutes at 350F (verified with a calibrated second oven thermometer). 

2)  Large air pockets appear 3/4 of the way up the loaf's top, but only at the middle of it. So only the center slices seem to be affected by it.  

I also tried baking at 330 F for 42 minutes or until reaching an internal temp. of 206 F, but the issues were even more pronounced.  

Factors worth mentioning:

  • I am using about 150 grams of starter for every 460 grams of bread flour. I found that this ratio improves the taste of my sandwich bread quite a lot. This practice never caused similar issues when using my old standard oven. 
  • I mix the dough in a spiral mixer at the lowest speed for 3 to 4 minutes, starting with 60% hydration slowly incorporating the rest of the water/milk until reaching 71% hydration. Then I stop to do a 30 min autolyze. Finally, I add the salt and the butter to continue mixing for another 3 to 4 minutes at low speed for a mild to medium gluten development 
  • Bulk rest: 3 hours, or about a 20 to 25% rise. Including three (3) stretch-and-fold cycles during the first 90 minutes, or until passing the window-pane test.
  • Shape and form followed by a 1-hour rise (ambient temperature varies between 75 F and 78 F)
  • 1-hour rising time until the dough reaches about 1-inch under the top edge of the pan 
  • 10 to 12 hours overnight rest in the fridge. The dough never rises to the edge of the pan before getting it out of the fridge the next morning.
  • After getting out of the fridge the next morning, I let the dough rise for another 30 minutes while preheating the oven. But then again, I don't let the dough rise over the edge of the pan before getting it inside the oven, and it doesn't seem to be over-proofed. 

One more thing, I was using a KA rotatory mixer along with my old standard non-convection oven. But I am not sure if this factor is even relevant for troubleshooting these issues. 

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

phaz's picture
phaz

Well, seems the obvious answer is not enough heat - the bottom that is, especially where it's not done.

Rotate/turn the loaf at some point in the oven, or a couple times. Enjoy! 

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks Phaz,

I used to get great results with sandwich bread in my old regular oven at 375F, but I lowered the temperature to 330 - 350 F in my new convection oven because I read that is exactly what one is supposed to do since convection bakes faster.  

I will also make some tests increasing the temperature to 375 F and update my post accordingly. 

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

When baking in convection mode, the air currents will bake/cook the exposed surface of the dough faster than the non-exposed surfaces.

Therefore, to even things out, top to bottom, cover, or "tent", the top of the loaf with aluminum foil for the first half of the bake.  This may necessitate a longer bake.

Please report back and let us know if any of our suggestions, or variations thereof, worked.

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks for your suggestion idaveindy. It is definitely something to consider. 

I bake 8 to 10 loaves at a time, so I would need to find a way to synchronize the removal of the aluminum foil for the last half of the bake without losing too much oven heat.  

Perhaps, using a covered Pullman pan can solve the issue too. But I know my clients like the more rustic rounded mushroom shape and the crust obtained with an open loaf pan. Moreover, I would also need to consider the cost of replacing my existing 45 open loaf pans for Pullman pans. I will run some tests and go from there. 

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Are your pans resting on the normal wire racks in the oven, or on something solid like a metal sheet pan or solid tray?

If the pans are sitting on something solid, that could be something that would cause the underside or lower portion to bake slower -- by making the underside more "insulated," from the moving hot air, than the sides and top.

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

I have a metal heat plate on the lower rack and a wire rack on the top of one.  The uncooked dough issue seems to affect the bread on both the wire and the metal rack, but you make a very good point, the metal heat plate could be the culprit. I will try to bake with wire racks on both levels instead to see what happens.

Thank you!

texas_loafer's picture
texas_loafer

Most convection ovens automatically adjust the temperature to compensate for the faster cooking time. Check the owners manual. Typically about 25 F

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks Texas_loafer.

My oven is a Cadco XAF-193. I will read the manual again to determine if this oven does automatic temperature adjustments as well.  

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Levixmo,  I have a Cadco,  and pretty sure that it does not do an automatic temperature adjustment, that is more common in a home oven with a digital control.  The air volume however, is pretty strong, they even sell a disc that is placed over the fan cover in the rear to cut down on the flow of air for baked goods where that can be a concern.   https://www.wasserstrom.com/restaurant-supplies-equipment/cadco-xc605-air-deflector-plate-for-convection-ovens-850523

 

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks barryvabeach.

Yes, you are right the XAF-193 doesn't have automatic temp. compensation. 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Are the two levels of pans aligned directly over each other, pan directly over pan?  Staggering them may improve air flow and more even heating.

--

Is there room for vertically separating the two racks more?  That may also improve air flow.

--

Have you experimented with less loaves?  Maybe 8 pans per bake fills the oven too much.  Perhaps try 7?

 

 

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks idaveindy.

Here are my answers:

Are the two levels of pans aligned directly over each other, pan directly over pan?  Staggering them may improve air flow and more even heating.

-- Yes

Is there room for vertically separating the two racks more?  That may also improve air flow.

-- No, the upper and lower racks are spaced to the max, a little over 6" 

Have you experimented with less loaves?  Maybe 8 pans per bake fills the oven too much.  Perhaps try 7?

-- Yes, these issues are occurring with as little as two loaves at a time 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

higher inside temp.  210°F.   Or depan onto the oven rack and bake another 7 to 10 minutes.

Due to the drying effect of air blowing and possibly sealing the surface skin, it could be trapping in steam causing the damp crumb and air pockets.  What happens if you only lower the hydration just a little bit?

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks Mini Oven.

I am going to bake the same sandwich bread again tomorrow.  I plan to try the following changes:

- Replacing the heat plate with a wire rack

- First batch at 350 F, followed by a second batch at 375 F to compare differences

- Waiting until bread internal temp. reaches 210F

- Lowering dough hydration by about 3%

I will post my findings.

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I second this: "Do to the drying effect of air blowing and sealing the surface skin, it could be trapping in steam causing the damp crumb and air pockets."

That makes the most sense.

Mini, I could marry your spinster-crazy-cat-lady sister/sister-in-law just so I could eat your bread at Christmas and family reunions. :-)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

get togethers for a while.  I suppose the best we can do in times like these is to bake and deliver care boxes to family.  Don't forget the popped popcorn to fill out the box.  

I don't know if it is genius but it is always good to have a couple of things to try, not all at the same time mind you, one change at a time, to see what is happening or what can help.  

Mini

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Phaz, Idaveindy, Texas-loafer, and Mini-Oven, thank you for your guidance and suggestions. 

These are my findings after baking two separate batches of 2 loaves each, where I implemented the following changes as mentioned in my previous post.

The dough for both bakes was mixed, stretched and folded, shaped, panned, and refrigerated at the same time. Hydration was reduced from 71% to 68%. Total bulk rest was 3 hours, including stretch & folds every 30 minutes, for a total of three times, after which windowpane was observed. There was a 1-hour-rise in the pan before refrigerating it overnight. I pulled each batch out of the fridge separately and let the dough warm up and rise until the edge of the pan (between 30 to 35 minutes) before introducing it to a preheated oven. 

BATCH #1 (Left side of the picture)

  • The upper and lower racks of the oven were used with one loaf on each one.
  • Wire Racks were used instead of heat plates. 
  • Baking temperature and time: 350 F for 41 minutes, with temperature checks at 34 and 38 minutes. (increased from original 330 F /42 minutes)
  • Internal temperature at the end of the bake 209.8 F

Results: 

- The crumb opening was more even, so those extra-large oval holes about an inch from the top were not present anymore. So, this problem went away. (perhaps as a result of the lower hydration... who knows)

- The dough at the bottom of the loaf continued to be uncooked despite the thermometer marking an internal temperature of 209.8 F.  This problem continues to be unsolved. 

- Texture: Moist, soft, and mildly chewy

- Taste: As good as before

 

BATCH #2  (Right side of the picture)

  • The upper and lower racks of the oven were used with one loaf on each one.
  • Wire Racks were used instead of heat plates. 
  • Baking temperature and time: 375 F for 40 minutes, with temperature checks at 34 and 38 minutes. (increased from original 330 F /42 minutes)
  • Internal temperature at the end of the bake 209.8 F

Results: 

- The crumb opening was more even, so those extra-large oval holes about an inch from the top were not present anymore. So, this problem went away. (perhaps as a result of the lower hydration... who knows)

-The crust was about a couple of shades darker, and it was also harder

- The dough at the bottom of the loaf continued to be uncooked despite the thermometer marking an internal temperature of 210 F. BUT, the amount of raw dough is a bit less than in batch #1  This problem continues to be unsolved. 

- Texture: A harder-thicker crust, less moist than in batch #1, and a bit chewier than batch #1. But the crumb was still soft.

- Taste: Not as good as before, maybe because it feels slightly drier

The crumb issue has been taken care of, so things improved a bit with these changes. As for the uncooked dough issue. I am now wondering what role can the cold temperature of the pan and the dough may play if there are only 30 minutes in between getting the dough out of the fridge and putting it in the oven. Because the pan is still quite cold when I put it in the oven.  

These are other strategies I had thought of to solve the uncooked dough issue:  

  1. Skip the dough's 1-hour rise in the pan after shaping it, and get it straight into the fridge instead. In this way; I could let the dough rise for about 90 minutes after taking it out of the fridge. This extra time will allow the temperature of both the pan and the dough to increase before the bake and perhaps will let the dough cook properly. 
  2. A longer bake using an initial higher temperature of 375 F for 20 minutes, followed by another 20 minutes or so at 350 F (or until reaching 210 F internal) to avoid the over-browning and hardening of the crust 

There is also the potential issue suggested by Mini Oven where the convection air may be drying up the crust too quickly, trapping steam inside of the loaf. However, I have no idea how to fix that one.

Please let me know your thoughts and suggestions. 

Ilya Flyamer's picture
Ilya Flyamer

Almost no experience with pan/sandwhich loaves, so correct me if I am wrong, but I would have thought your temperatures are too low? According to Google, your 375F is 190C... I have never baked any bread so low! And seems like hotter bakes turn out better? Maybe try 410F? You can lower it after 10-15 min, maybe, so you don't burn the top crust.

Addition: looking at Maurizio's recipes at The Perfect Loaf, he bakes sandwich loaves at 405 or 425 F, for the first 20 or 35 min.

To check if convection is a problem, you can probably just cover the top of the pan with foil for the first part of the bake.

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks Ilya.

Right, baking it at a higher temperature is a possible solution. But, just as you suggested, I am going to have to lower the temperature halfway through the bake because I already experienced how 370 F for 40 minutes can brown and harden the crust. 

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo
idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

You must tent the loaf with aluminum foil in a convection oven. We have seen this problem over and over on TFL.  The top surface cooks and hardens before the bottom in a convection oven due to the blowing air.

Look how your top crust is darker than the bottom crust. That means the top cooked too fast, too soon.  You must make the top cook slower.  The only way that I know of to do that in a convection oven is to protect the top skin from air currents.

Nothing fancy. You do not need pulman pans. You do not need to "seal" or completely enclose the top. And the loaf tops can still be rounded,  even mushroomed.  Just use an inverted "V" shape of aluminum foil like a roof or a tent.

It only needs to be barely affixed to the pan, so it does not blow off. It is only to protect the exposed dough from direct air currents.

"There is also the potential issue suggested by Mini Oven where the convection air may be drying up the crust too quickly, trapping steam inside of the loaf. However, I have no idea how to fix that one."

Tent the loaf, amigo. That is how you fix it.

The inner water cannot "bake off" because the top skin has hardened and trapped it.

(Mini basically said the same thing I did before, but she worded/explained it better.)

You will also have to bake a little longer, and remove the tents after about 1/2 or 2/3rds through the bake so the top will eventually brown.

As Mini said, you can also take the bread out of the pan at a certain point.

--

Tenting may not be the one-and-only thing needed. There may be other adjustments to make. But tenting is the _primary_ (main) thing needed.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

how are the loaves warming up before baking?  On what surface are they resting?  Cold or warm?

Same questions in the fridge? Is the temperature even? Equal below and above the loaves while they cool or warm up?  

Call the customer help line for the oven manufacturer, they might have solutions.  They are sure to have run into this before.  

phaz's picture
phaz

I suppose you've removed everything from under the loaf and moved it lower?

Next loaf, put the tip of your thermometer all the way to the bottom of the pan and check temp there. Enjoy! 

Levixmo's picture
Levixmo

Thanks again for help and guidance Mini Oven, Idaveindy, phaz, Ilya Flyamer, barryvabeach, and texas_loafer !

I tested many of the suggestions received and after many trials and errors, I believe the issue has been solved through a combination of adjustments. 

  1. A less aggressive final shape
  2. Not letting it rise a complete 1" above the edge after getting out of the fridge, just to the edge of the tin (it solved the large openings 3/4 of the way up, and still provided a good rise during baking) 
  3. A higher initial temperature of 410F for 12 minutes, followed by 24 minutes at 325/350F - (Convection)

:-)