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Still getting uneven big holes with dense crumb in between

oakster's picture
oakster

Still getting uneven big holes with dense crumb in between

Sourdough #4 is probably the best so far, but I'm still getting large, uneven holes with fairly dense crumb in between.

Here's the finished loaf - as you can see, the crust is great and the scores opened quite well, but the crumb is still uneven and dense and the overall shape is fairly squat. Flavor is good.

I used Maurizio's Simple Weekday Sourdough recipe. I am using Giusto's Artisan Bread Flour (11.5% protein) and KA White Whole Wheat.

Due to struggles building strength on my previous loaves, I made the following adjustments:

Reduced hydration all the way down to 70%

Added significantly more strengthening, due to the lower-protein flour and past results:

  • 10 minutes of this "scooping" mixing method at the start of bulk
  • 10 minute rest
  • 5 more minutes of "scooping"
  • And finally 4 sets of stretch-and-folds separated by 30 minutes
  • The final undisturbed phase of bulk, after the last fold, lasted about 2 or 2.5 hrs.

With a dough temp around 76-77, bulk fermentation lasted about 4.5-5 hours. I ended bulk once the dough had increased in volume roughly 50%.

Despite all the added strengthening, I never get the domed/rounded dough shape during bulk that I see in Maurizio's photos. Rather, the surface of my dough at the end of bulk is pretty much flat, with a few very small surface bubbles. It did increase in volume 50%, so clearly fermentation is happening.

I preshaped, bench rested for 30 min, shaped, proofed in the fridge for 10 hours at 38F, and baked straight from the fridge.

After preshaping:

I am still not sure if the problem is related to bulk fermentation (too long/too short?), cold proof (too long/too short?), dough strength, or something else.

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

Hard to know for certain, but something tells me the problem lies with your proof. When you scored the loaves, did they collapse a little? Are you familiar with how to check for level of proof with a floured finger?

oakster's picture
oakster

The loaf held it's shape well when I scored it. I did the finger poke test, but I find that very difficult to judge with cold dough straight out of the fridge. Nevertheless, the finger-poked dough slowly sprung back but left a small impression.

zachyahoo's picture
zachyahoo

The crumb you are seeing is what you see when your dough is under-fermented. 

Your bulk seems like it *should* be long enough, but clearly the dough isn't fermenting enough.

Is your starter active? How long does it take to double?

oakster's picture
oakster

I got a mature starter from a friend a few weeks ago. I feed it in a ratio of 20g starter/50g AP flour/50g water. When kept around 75 degrees, it matures in about 12 hours (increasing close to 3x in volume).

This is what the levain (not starter) looked like right before going into the dough:

I'm a bit confused about how I would know if my starter is not active enough. If the dough is increasing in volume by 50% during bulk, that suggests that fermentation is active, right? Is there some other part of fermentation that could be insufficient, despite the overall dough volume increasing enough?

oakster's picture
oakster

this was a duplicate post - please remove this one

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

A nice way to check your starter is to simply take a little spoonful and gently place it in a cup of water. If it floats, it's probably fine. If it sinks, then no.

If i had to venture a guess, I would say you are under-proofed. 38F is pretty cold, not a lot happens at that temperature. If I were going to do this again, I would probably skip the cold proof and just do 4 hours at room temperature or do 3 hours at room temperature out of the fridge in the morning.

Zuri

oakster's picture
oakster

Yes, forgot to mention - the levain passed the float test with flying colors before going into the dough. Thing was bobbing like a boat.

So would you say I should keep bulk fermentation where it is (shape after volume increases 50%), and just add some room-temp proof time?

For the warm proof - does it matter if I do it before or after the fridge? E.g. shape, keep proofing basked on the counter for a few hours, then in the fridge overnight? Or is it better done after the cold proof?

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

I am glad to hear it passes the float test, but I still think it might be past its prime. I would still suggest lowering your inoculation to 20% from 40%.

Excellent question about whether to proof and retard or retard and proof. Others may chime in with their opinion. I could not give you the definitive answer, but I would suggest proofing first and then retarding. That's because out of the fridge, the inside of the dough warms much slower than the outside, which means your proof will be inconsistent out of the fridge. 

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

By the way, at your ratio, that is 40% starter. For a 2x/day refresh, that seems high to me, your mother may be overmaturing and past its peak by the time you use it. I would suggest you lower that to 20% and feed it 10g starter, 50g flour, 50g water.

oakster's picture
oakster

That's how I was feeding it to begin with, but I was finding that it was not peaked after 12 hours. It would still be bulged and on it's way up - not reaching peak height until 15 hrs or so. With my current feeding regimen, at the 12 hour point, it is at it's maximum height and flattened, no longer bulging, but not yet starting to fall.

Might be due to the fact that I'm feeding it bulk-bin AP flour (bread flour is hard to come by round these parts now, trying to conserve it to go in actual bread!).

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

Just FYI, you don't want to use it when it is at it's maximum height, because when it is there then it is also on its way back down. I would use my starter when it is rising at it's maximum rate, not when it reaches its maximum height. Not sure if that makes sense. Anyhow, I recommend toning it down. 
Also, not sure you are aware, but you can make your own bread flour anytime you want. I have a post on that here:

https://wheatbeat.com/how-to-make-high-gluten-flour/

oakster's picture
oakster

Interesting - I had been going off of this guide that suggests feeding a starter when it is flattened or just starting to fall, and using a levain when it has just reached peak height. Sounds like there are different philosophies - I'll try using the levain earlier next time.

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

Get 3 bakers in room, they will have 4 opinions :)

suave's picture
suave

Have you ever succeded with a regular 65-68% hydration white bread?  Something that does not use fad techniques and retarding?  Just mix, bulk ferment with s&f, shape, proof bake?

wheatbeat's picture
wheatbeat

With all due respect: high hydration, cold retarding and the like are not "fad techniques". They are legitimate tools that give a result quite different than the bread you describe. 

suave's picture
suave

Except, of course, when they don't and then the internet is awash with questions from people who never baked and then jump directly into 80-90% hydration doughs.

oakster's picture
oakster

I'm just trying to bake the bread I want to eat. I'm not afraid of failure and I'm enjoying the troubleshooting and learning process. And most folks on this forum have been very helpful and supportive.

Also, this bread was 70% hydration.

:)

Benito's picture
Benito

I agree with the others that this was a bit under proofed.  The lower hydration does slow down fermentation somewhat and then a dough temperature of 76-77ºF I think needed more than the 4.5-5 hours of bulk fermentation.  I find that it is challenging to judge a 50% rise unless you have one of those clear Cambro bins.  I would probably push bulk longer.  I still like to cold retard as it helps with flavour and can help with your timing.

Benny

oakster's picture
oakster

:)

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Oakster,  I just noticed what looks like a counter-top oven in one of your pics.  And your crust looks rather dark in spots, compared to a possibly underdone interior.

Is that what you're baking in?    Can you describe your oven (gas/electric/convection/top-or-bottom-elements) baking setup (dutch oven, stone, steam, etc.), times and temps?

I wonder if excess heat is killing off your yeast too early.

oakster's picture
oakster

That's my countertop toaster oven in the photo. Not used for bread. I'm baking in a GE electric oven, in an unenameled cast-iron dutch oven, at 450 for 20 minutes lid on, and then 20-30 min lid off. Oven is calibrated correctly.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

a little bit more.  I think the crumb pattern speaks for too wet.  Lots of bubbles tall and narrow rising Straight up.. Like they rose too fast through the dough with less than normal resistance making me wonder about dough development and/or hydration.  I don't think overproofed, too much crust color. Underproofed?  I don't see very round bubbles or lack of bubbles zooming in on the crumb.  I do see the odd big bubbles that could mean trapped air when shaping or a few bubbles that should have been popped earlier before final rise. ( Big bubbles of gas in turn leads to too early baking when judging by dough volume only.)  I still find the hardest part of baking is deciding when to put it into the oven. This is the time to really take notes on the dough, aroma, wobble, feel with palms on the dough, volume, temp. etc..

There is quite a spread in the scores, good and the loaf looks very inviting.   :)  Maybe even more so now that my rhubarb/strawberry jam is cooling.  If baked longer to dry out the crumb, a foil tent or a drop in oven temp might help.  Several things could be going on.  I'd try a simple reduction in water to 65% and see if that helps.

oakster's picture
oakster

Thanks for the advice. Given that I had already adjusted the hydration down to 70% (from the 76% that the recipe calls for), and you suggest that the dough is perhaps underdeveloped, I'm curious why you suggest simply dropping hydration further, rather than trying to build more dough strength and/or extend bulk fermentation. Not doubting your advice, just want to make sure I understand it.

I judged the baking time based on crust color, although when I checked internal temp at the end of the bake it was at 210, so not sure if the crumb needed more drying out.

I also have not found much advice on how to judge when to bake a refrigerator-proofed dough. It seems like the poke test doesn't really work on cold dough...is there something in particular I should be looking for with the cold-proofed dough to decide if it's ready?

Thanks again!

Meat5000's picture
Meat5000 (not verified)

One can literally see your Stretch and folds. And you scored straight into the folds releasing the air to the top edges.

During SF grab a wider handful of dough from lower down to encourage that centre-base to circulate out. Pull so it stretches through to the middle, not just the handful.

Score deep in the centre, to encourage it to bloom upward from the bottom centre.

Your bread looks decent to me. Three tell-tale dark lines in the crumb, I would imagine, are the basis of everyone elses advice and you should follow them to solve it. I just used my engineers eye to spot where your bubbles came from.

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Look at the rest of the crumb.. you don't have proper structure throughout.. I'm with mini. I would drop the temp to 72 during bulk and I would use coil folds rather than stretch and folds. Leave everything else the same. enjoy..

oakster's picture
oakster

Thanks for the advice - I'm curious, why would dropping the temp to 72 help? Is the idea to give myself more time to fit in more folds during bulk, or is there some other effect of the lower temp that will help?

bread1965's picture
bread1965

Autolyse is about hydrating your flour.

Water/hydration helps the yeast spread though the flour/dough and facilitates the formation of gluten. It acts as a solvent for yeast and salt to spread throughout the dough. The more water present the faster that process will take if two dough's are fermented at the same temperature. And the amount of water you use will affect the texture of your bread too - but isn't the only thing doing that.

Temperature is important (of both your starter during maintenance, buildup or use in dough) in developing a dough because the fermentation process moves along faster at a warmer temperature and slower at a lower temperature - everything else being equal.

Structure plays a role in the development of your crumb and in turn of the rise you'll see in your dough. As the yeast consumes/metabolizes the sugars found in the endosperm of the flour grains it releases carbon dioxide gas. That released gas is what we're capturing in our dough that creates holes in our crumb. What we want to do is control the way that gas is captured to create both an even size and distribution of all those 'air pockets' throughout our crumb. Now if you created a no-knead dough then there is no form and structure to that shaggy mass, but you still get a great bread with a very irregular crumb and likely some large pockets/holes - and that's fine. But if you'd like to create an evenly created crumb then you'll need to think about structure and how to more evenly trap that C02 evenly throughout your dough. Stretch and folds are find but consider switching to coil folds to better create structure - that's been my experience.

So to your question, inoculating your flour with starter/levain is when the clock starts to tick. You have only so long before the levain ferments all of the flour available. Think of it as having one ounce of starter and ten ounces of added flour with water. Slowly that one ounce of yeast rich starter starts to consume and spread throughout the ten ounces of flour and converts the sugars found and releasing C02. So if the goal in this example is to have that yeast spread evenly across that 10 ounces you have to consider controlling how fast you want that to happen by controlling temperature, hydration, choice of flours, etc etc. And along the way you want to develop structure and strength (another topic) in the dough.  You then want to pick your spot as to when you think it's done - that those 10 ounces are properly inoculated. Under fermented means that it's not all been properly inoculated. Over-fermented and the dough will start to collapse as you'll lose strength and structure.  You can manage the time it takes by increasing/reducing temp - part of why people put their dough in the fridge over night - to slow that process down and develop flavour.  Finding a way to have a consistent and reliable temperature environment will meaningfully improve your bakes. I bought a proof box a few years ago and it's made a big difference to my results. The warmer the dough ferments the faster the yeast metabolism of starches goes, the lower the slower.

I've given you more of an explanation than you asked for. And there's so much more that's missing from what I've said. But hopefully that helps give you a framework to think through your future bread bakes. I think your bread in the original post was over-fermented slightly and/or needed an improvement in structure (which is why I said look at the small holes instead of the large ones - you want crumb holes more even across the dough).

Enjoy...