The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Fire brick vs commercial baking stone

alan856's picture
alan856

Fire brick vs commercial baking stone

Just getting started with bread (lots of reading & You Tube) - and have a low-end, garden variety apartment gas oven.  SO - it appears adding a stone will help.   I have looked at a variety of baking stones on amazon, and a nice one at 14" x 16" x .8" comes in at $40.

For $36 - I can get a pack of 6 fire bricks (https://amzn.to/3cev6xk) that are 9" x 4 1/2" x 1.25".  This will give an 18" x 13.5" working area.  Does seem like a better route - any comments?

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Gas ovens are hard to steam for a loaf baked "naked" on stone. It would still require an inverted pot/pan/bowl or roaster to cover the loaf and trap steam.

Also, a "stone" that is 1.25" thick will take about  2.5 times as long to come up to temp as one .5" thick.

And is your oven rack and the rack-supports sturdy enough to support that weight ?

A cast  iron dutch oven, or even a glass covered-casserole dish would trap steam better.  and no stone needed. Here is what I use, the 3.2 qt Lodge combo cooker: https://www.amazon.com/Lodge-Cooker-Pre-seasoned-Skillet-Convertible/dp/B0009JKG9M?tag=froglallabout-20

They are currently out of stock.  Walmart might have it.   I like this model because it has a long handle.

The Lodge  5 qt combo cooker model does not have a long handle.  It is the same diameter as the 3.2 qt model, only deeper.  Model # L8DD3.  https://www.amazon.com/Lodge-L8DD3-Cast-Iron-Dutch/dp/B000LEXR0K?tag=froglallabout-20   $45.  Out of stock too, but "supposedly" will be available April 27, 2020.

Standard/regular Dutch Ovens can be used too, but the "combo cooker" models are nice in that you load your dough on the lid, score it, then cover with the pot.  and you don't burn yourself reaching your hand into the deep pot to score the loaf.

Covered casserole dishes can be had cheap at thrift stores.

 

alan856's picture
alan856

I do understand the use of a dutch oven & lid to make a steaming possible.  There is the down-side that you are limited to ROUND loaves - no long large long ones...

From what you are saying, the stone (whatever) is really only useful if you are going to steam directly in the oven as something to help hold heat and have the bread sit on. And (cheap) gas ovens wouldn't hold the steam that well anyway....

That combo-cooker does look good - guess I could live with "just" round bread!  LOL!

With beginners luck - I tried a "no knead" sourdough and had a clay loaf pan/pot. I only had a Pyrex rectangular dish to cover it with but since the loaf was small - it didn't hit the top and I did seem to get a rather crusty crust!

 

 

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

If you look for the person's hand in the obligatory crumb photos, you can tell that the oval shape (batard) loaves are not that big.

Of course you can bake then in a round dutch oven if you both shape and _size_ them correctly.

The _inner_ diameter of the 3.2 and 5 qt Lodge combo cookers is 9", on the lid part.  That just means the length of your oval loaf is limited to 9".

Lodge makes dutch ovens (the ones without campfire style legs) up to 9 qts.  

Update: according to one amazon customer who answered a question, the 9 qt Lodge D.O.  has an inside base/bottom diameter of 10.75".  It was on the 2nd or 3rd or 4th page of questions and answers. Costs $90, though. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00063RWZM?tag=froglallabout-20

With a pizza/baking stone, you could still use an inverted roaster, like Graniteware, as a "hat" to hold in steam coming from the dough itself, to get 11" long oval loaves. Or, bake directly in an upright covered Graniteware roaster, no stone needed.

I've  bought new  pizza stones for like $10-$12 at Aldi and Big Lots.  $12-$14 at Tuesday Morning. (Aldi  has them only seasonaly, fall I think.)

alan856's picture
alan856

Thanks for the comments -  I've just put that Lodge "combo-cooker" on my list at Amazon.  I got lulled into thinking I could steam (see this vid: https://youtu.be/PabONWAcGSs) but he was using an electric oven!  I've begun to learn that the home gas oven needs a little help to do decent bread. And just that dutch oven is a much cheaper and simpler solution than other routes to steaming.

Pizza is largely about the crust so I can see where the stones would be more valuable there.

  Now if I can just find out where to buy some flour...     :-(

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

I might be able to help you get flour.  What do you need, in terms of AP/Bread/%-protein,  and what is your zip code?

alan856's picture
alan856

I'm in New Jersey - 08021 outside Phila.

Since I'm pretty new at this either some actual bread flour or even good AP as I've see vids that show there really isn't much difference.

I have a couple starters going and would like to practice sourdough - so i guess the AP would be fine for that sort of thing.  What weights are available? Prob a few 5lb bags (or similar) would be good.

Checked UPS - seems like the shipping could be a killer,  :-(

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Go to this page:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/find-a-distributor?prdcode=53722000&zipcode=08021#findDistributor

Start calling those distributors/restaurant-suppliers near you, and ask if they have 53722, harvest King, unbleached, unbromated, and if they will sell you a 50 pound bag "over the counter."  You order via phone, get an availabiltiy date/time, drive over, pay, pick it up.  Should be under $30.  It's spec'ed at 12% protein.

They might also have King Arthur.  KA's AP flour (11.7%) in a 50 pound bag is called Sir Gallahad.  And their Bread Flour(12.5%) in a 50 pound bag is called Special Patent.

A guy did that in Indianapolis and got KA for under $23-24.

2nd choice, 3rd choice:

"Imperial", unbleached, unbromated, enriched, malted, 11.3% protein, 50 lbs, code 54431. .52% ash.

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-winter-wheat/imperial-bakers

"Full Strength", unbleached, unbromated, enriched, malted, 12.6% protein, 50 lbs, code 53395. .56% ash.

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/full-strength-unbromated-enriched-malted-50lb

Plug your zip into the "find a distributor" on the right hand side.  Usually the same ones come up, but not always.

alan856's picture
alan856

The price is def good - but not sure I can handle 50 lbs!  Even at my wasteful practice runs that would be a LOTTA flour!  BUT - Thanks for the idea, and will keep the info on hand.  There are distributors within 20 miles... but will have to find some "bread buddies" to help!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Look at it this way... you would spend more than $30 on 20 pounds of flour shipped to you.

I'm suggesting you spend the same $30, do a little driving, and voilà, you get 30 pounds of flour FREE!

Oy vey! such a deal!   

Do what you want with the extra.  Give it away, donate to a homeless shelter, sell to friends/neighbors. 

(Yes, I'm Jewish/Scottish, from a long line of bargain-hunters.)

alan856's picture
alan856

Yo! I def hear you on the savings.  But my "pipeline" is very small. I live alone (quite happy) have about 3 local friends who are not bakers (but would love any bread I could bring them!

And I'm on a rather limited (fixed as in SS!) income.   So it seems I'm not in the best position to take advantage of the bulk purchases.  I will keep an ear to the ground - you just never know when this info may become useful.

newchapter's picture
newchapter

I totally bit the bullet & started buying bulk, after I found these: 

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/3763748711973533903?q=vittle+vault&client=safari&hl=en-us&biw=375&bih=549&tbs=vw:l,ss:44&prmd=sinv&sxsrf=ALeKk03DVNv4W5WWREjKTth-QJr-prpEiQ:1586983417336&prds=epd:16677868527529897166,paur:ClkAsKraX5ZnzgTkEJft0cw6wHHFHdU4peI0VZIGIvYRIBRDF35o3-5fHnOZfJ09JBjZoYtahEMtzCXPqnZ-X1lA68YnJ1jZAmY80FOZ5-3h8O8smgiXgUCaYhIZAFPVH72uI2U85_2AE2dNx8DOg-wsTxNmIg,cdl:1,prmr:1,cs:1 

and I am SO glad I did!  At first, I bought them for their

intended purpose, ie cat & dog food.

Then I thought about how much I was spending, per pound

on staple dry ingredients.  I now have one each for; AP flour,

bread flour, rice, white sugar, brown sugar, and legumes.

My husband thought I was crazy, until he realized how great

they would be for keeping his different smoker woods fresh.

alan856's picture
alan856

I keep thinking about the idea of getting some flour in bulk, as you suggest. The price is great and flour may become somewhat hard to get.   I think 25 lb would be...  manageable.  That would be like 5 bags of 5. I have one Oxo air-tight container which i'd use for the "active" 5 lb.  

Best way to store the remainder? I assume I'd get a 25 lb bag and have to repackage it myself.  Remember - small apartment, single old guy, modest baking efforts (but I do need a lot for practice!).   What say ye?

suave's picture
suave

Many gas oven can only be steamed using a cover, and for that a stone will work better - an assembled surface will never be flat enough, and you will be losing all your steam both through the seams between the bricks and the seam between the stone and the cover.

Also, you don't really need more than half inch of thickness.

newchapter's picture
newchapter

I’ve been thinking about this, and I wonder if the steam-escaping-from-between-the-bricks issue could be resolved (for those that already have bricks) by laying down a sheet of parchment paper, then your boule, then your cast iron cover?

suave's picture
suave

I broke off the corner of my stone - just enough for my cover be over it.  I tried parchment over, foil under, but it has not been the same.

newchapter's picture
newchapter

Aww, that’s too bad.  I’m sorry to hear that your remedies (which sound well reasoned) aren’t working out.

Rube Goldberg's picture
Rube Goldberg

Fire Bricks can be bought even cheaper than that at your local building supply store. I use fire bricks in my electric oven successfully. I don't know how they would work in a gas oven.

Happy Bread!!

idaveindy's picture
idaveindy

Here's a recent gas oven story that was "solved" using a $5 (used) ceramic dutch oven.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/62693/sourdough-bursting-issues

 

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

As to the stone v. firebrick,  it depends on why you want it.  While some suggest a large stone will help even out the temp in an oven,  according to this testing, it does not work out in practice  https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/bakingStone.html    If it did,  firebricks would work as well as a stone.

If instead you are using a stone to introduce heat to the bottom of a loaf, then the firebricks probably will not work as well as a baking stone.  Firebricks have very low conductivity, meaning they release their heat to the dough very slowly. In contrast, most baking stones are made of cordierite, and release their heat more quickly.   Steel is even more conductive, though many suggest that a pizza steel releases its heat too quickly, and can lead to a burnt bottom.

As to steam, gas ovens are extremely good at venting, which means even if you introduce steam into the oven, it leaves it very quickly,  so usually the best option is some cover or container.