Sourdough Starter not rising - totally bewildered ! Any advice welcome !
Hello everybody !
If anyone can offer me a little help, I'd be so grateful ... I'm going a bit nuts with my starter, Bob.
The back story :
I created Bob a year ago, he worked well, came on tour with me (I'm a classical musician), and I baked some nice sourdough with him last year. I then had too many projects to deal with, left him unloved in the back of my fridge for... one year. Yes, I'm bad.
A few weeks ago, the French confinement for Covid in view (I'm an English girl living in France) I decided this was the perfect time to revive Bob. It's now been nearly 3 weeks and he's still not playing the game.
So here's what I did :
He had a bit of hooch, which I poured off. I kept the rest - it smelled very vinegary but not acrid or turned bad.
I took 20g of this, and fed at a 1:2:2 with white flour and tepid water for 3 or 4 days, leaving him in a warm corner of the room, at around 78f / 26c. I realized during these 3 or 4 days that my flour was really old and a year past it's use-by date, so it probably didn't have any nutrients in it anymore, so I wasn't so surprised that nothing was really happening. Because of the covid situation I knew I'd have to wait a few days for the new flour to arrive (I'd placed an order a few days before).
So, I sought advice from a very experienced baker, who explained that Bob probably had a very high alcohol content, that I should switch to 1:5:5 to give him more flour and water to feed off, and switch to 50/50 white and wholemeal flour, feeding him every 12 hours and leaving him in the 26c environment. So 20g Bob the starter + 100g water + 50/50 white and wholemeal flour. I did this for 6 days, and basically nothing changed apart from small bubbles appearing. No real rise, either nothing at all or just a few millimeters. By this point I was getting a little depressed but I figured things might change for the best with the arrival of the new flour !
I should mention that during this time I also started a new starter from scratch to see if Bob being old was the problem. I followed this schedule :
Day 1 50g water 50g wholemeal / Day 2 50g starter, 25g water, 25g wholemeal / Days 3-6 the same thing - by the end of this there was still very few bubbles and no rise.
The new flour arrived, so I did 2 more days like this, but just feeding Bob every 12 hours. I was still left with a very liquid starter, no structure at all really, some bubbles (more bubbles than before, most likely thanks to the new flour) and the same was true of the new starter.
My starter expert friend was very surprised at the lack of structure in the starter, he suggested going back to the 1:2:2 ration and decreasing the hydration and only feeding both starters once ever 12 hours. I tried this for 2 days, no change (40g starter, 72g water, 40g/40g white and wholemeal flour.
No change. My friend suggested decreasing the water by 5% each day to see if it could help, so yesterday evening I fed 40g of Bob with 68g water, and also tried changing the ratio of types of flours : 50g wholemeal and 30g white.
Small hitch : our boiler broke, so the warm place I kept bob in is now at around 20c / 68f. Not ideal I know... Still no change, Bob is liquid as ever with a very small rise (maybe 8mm) and no structure, despite a few bubbles. Quite a tart taste, not unpleasant, and a sort of vinegary fruity smell.
So, this is making me crazy !
Things to know : I keep my flour in the fridge so it will last for longer (I bought 5kg) , in airtight bags. I use warm water to compensate for this (at around 30 degrees C) so that when I put Bob back in the warm spot he is at around 26c already (the temp of the room). I've tried leaving out a jug of water overnight, just in case it was the chlorine holding him back : no change. I tried injecting a little bit of Rye flour once too : No change.
I should also mention that I tried starting a Rye starter from scratch and apart from the 2nd day where the was some rise and a good structure, it's now performing at the same level as Bob : nothing really at all.
I try hard to use clean equipment, thoroughly rince out the container I use before putting back the new mixture after the feed. I really am stuck, and on top of the confinement it's starting to really frustrate me that I can't work out what is wrong. The last time I tried this starter game I got mine working after just a week, and made some good bread with a good rise...
Please, if anyone has any ideas, I'd be so grateful !!!!
Lydia
I've included some photos of Bob below.
Lydia, you may be over feeding Bob.
Think of it this way. You fed him yesterday, but he is feeling sluggish and didn’t eat. Today you removed a lot of Bob along with some of the uneaten food and threw him back in with more food that he may or may not want at this time. You are inadvertently diluting your starter.
If you have some of your original starter take 5 or 10 grams and feed that with the same weights f water and flour. Keep it warm (no higher than 30C), and if you want stir it once or twice a day. Don’t feed again until you see some signs of fermentation (bubbles). The feed equal parts by weight starter + water + flour. Be patient and watch Bob. Don’t feed him until he shows good signs of activity. Stir him every now and then.
I think it best to hold off on heavy feeds (1:5:5) until Bob is feeling better.
Bob is definitely showing signs (fermentation bubbles) of life. The patient should survive.
Let us know how things go.
Dan
Thanks for your encouraging reply Dan !
Sadly I don't have any of the original starter left :(
I won't feed him tonight (which would have been 24h since the last feed) and will keep him out on the counter, not in the fridge. From what you're saying am I to understand that he might just be taking longer to use the feed I give him ? I thought feeding them was meant to promote activity and growth... hmm....
Just to check, so that we're in agreement on what you mean by "fermentation bubbles" - the bubbles he's currently showing are not real fermentation bubbles, just bacteria bubbles, right ? When he starts showing some signs of actual fermentation bubbles (ie structure and rise, right ?) should I take a small amount of him and then do 1:1:1 or do 1:1:1 with the weight he's currently at ?
For my other starters which are not responding either, I assume I should leave them alone for a bit too ?
Sorry for more questions ...
Thanks for your help !
I have always considered bubbles that are not a result of stirring as signs of fermentation.
Dilution explained.
Let’s say Bob weighs 10 pounds. You feed bob 10 pounds water and 10 pounds flour. Now Bob doesn’t gain weight because he ate very little if any food. But now you remove 20 pounds from Bob’s swimming pool and once again feed him 10 pound water and 10 pounds flour. You have reduced Bob to 3.33 pounds and he is now swimming with 13.3 water and 13.3 flour. Do you see how he is being diluted?
but when Bob gets better and starts eating all of his food and water, Bob will weight 30 pounds. Then you can remove some of fattened Bob and feed that version more water and flour.
I hope the corny analogy makes sense.
Dan
Thanks Dan ! Yes, I'm definitely following your corny analogy ;)
So, I didn't feed Bob last night, I just stirred him, so he has now been 36h without food, and I put him next to a little electric heater (we're still waiting for the technician to fix our broken heating system so it's pretty cold at home right now!). Even with the heater he's only at a temperature of around 20c, and still very liquid despite the bubbles. This morning he looks like this :
Many many more bubbles, and a little rise of about 7-8mm (as before).
Should I keep not feeding him until I get a proper rise ? If I understand correctly, you think that he might just need more time to digest, right ?
When I eventually do feed him, what quantity of him do you recommend I keep, and what ratio of flour and water ? Do you agree that going under 100% hydration could be useful ?
Thanks for your help !!!
Lydia, Bob looks like he is starting to percolate!
If you want to “play it safe”, you could take some of Bob from your present starter and mix (1:0.8:1). That way you could keep the original starter going. If the original seems strong or you think he needs food, re-feed him. Let’s say you took 8 grams from Bob for a new starter. Then add 8 grams water and 10 grams of flour. If he is still wet, add another gram of flour to the mix. Slight variances are not a big deal.
I think the reason your starter is not rising is because it is to broken down - too acidic. This is causing him to be too liquid and because of this the starter can’t contain the fermentation gas in order to rise. Your idea to mix Bob a little drier is a good one.
Next set of images, give us closeups of a top shot and also one looking through the side of the glass.
Dan
So, Bob has some new activity - many many more bubbles and a little more rise but still no real structure.
If I've understood correctly you suggest I still don't feed the original until he's much stronger (?) but that I take a 8 grams of him out and start feeding that ? (with 8 grams of water and 10g flour).
Given that I'm leaving him without food for several days should I perhaps change his jar ? I'm assuming I need to still leave him in a warm place ? Is he likely to magically get more structure literally with me doing nothing ?
I understand the principle of him being too acidic and therefore to liquid... but then I feel like that should mean I should feed him. If I feed the original Bob (what's left of him after taking out the 8 grams) should I weigh him and feed accordingly on a 1:0.8:1 ratio ?
#confused !!
Sorry for all the questions. I've taken top and side shots this evening and haven't fed him yet. Waiting for instructions ! :))
With what is happening to your starter. I just have one suggestion. Do you have an oven with a light? Pop Bob in there with just the light on. You will be surprised at how warm it gets. Don’t let Bob overheat though. Crack the door open if needed.
Thanks Danielle - normally I would have tried that but my oven is brand new and a bit too modern, so sadly doesn't have a light on function unless the door is open or the oven is actually on. Dammit !
Thanks for your help !
Just a thought...
Glad to read this post! I am 8 days into creating a starter for the very first time...trying anyway. I'm in Canada and I'm using 1:1:1 according to the recipe I have followed, and keeping it in the oven with the light on. I too have bubbles, but no real expansion/growth. Dan's comment about feeding too often makes sense, as my recipe has me feeding every 12 hours. So I should wait as well? When it does become more active, am I looking for bigger bubbles and a substantial rise? When I do feed again how much should I feed??
thanks so much in advance!
Suzanne
Suzanne, send us some closeup images just before the starter is ready to be fed.
Let us know the ambient temperature of your starter’s location.
Yes, bubbles and rise are great indicators of the health and activity of your starter.
Dan
Hi Dan,
Starter smells like it should I believe? Not rancid, but definitely fermented and fruity.
Yes, the ratio is 1:1:1 by weight (113g as the King Arthur flour recipe required).
Started out with whole wheat flour for the first 48 hours, and then the recipe switches over to unlbeached ap.
Our house is 71 F, and I've been keeping it in the oven with the light on. Thermometer in the oven reads 75F.
These pics are 36 hours without feeding but have been stirred because I thought I'd give that a shot? Pretty much no expansion, but I can see that a little bit of hooch has formed on the top.
Thank you soooooo much for answering me! Feeling a little bit Covid-crazy over here while keeping isolated lol!
What do you think?
Suzanne
Suzanne, looks like hutch (alcohol) is forming on the top of your starter. If it is your starter will have turned to soup. The flour has been broken down and the starter is in desperate need of food.
Are you sure that your in-oven temp is actually 75F with the light on and the oven door closed? Most people find that they need to crack the door open to prevent over heating.
You can try this. Take 20 grams off your original and feed it 14g water + 20g flour. That will convert your test starter to 80% hydration (counting your seed starter @ 100%). The drier starter will be easier to watch the height of rise. If you like this hydration and want to continue using 80% water mix 20 starter + 16 water + 20 flour from then on.
Keep asking questions and keep us informed. Starters are only difficult until you get the hang of them. A healthy starter is very resilient and hearty.
The time it takes to reach max height and just barely begin to recede is the ideal indicator of starter maturity. The ideal time to re-feed your starter is at starter maturity.
Think of a starter as you would a new born. Initially the infant has absolutely no time schedule, but in due time a routine is established. The good news - you never have dirty diapers with starters :D
Hi Suzanne ! Glad to hear my post was helpful... we're all in this together !! Good luck :)
I'm following along... we will see what happens:) Good luck to you as well!
I decided to feed Bob this lunchtime, and I made a baby Bob too, following your advice :)
I fed baby Bob like this : 8g Bob : 8g water : 10g flour (5g wholemeal + 5 g white)
I then decided to change Bob's container as it had been a few days, and feed him according to his current weight (150g) with a 1:0,8:1, which was quite a lot of flour to use etc, but I thought I'd try it.... and it worked !!!
In the 6 hours since I fed him he has doubled in size and is still growing, and is showing the first signs of having real structure !!!! I'm so happy I could cry ! (lol). After 2 weeks of frustrations and confusion...
This is what he looks like currently :
So, what I'm wondering now is, to keep him getting stronger, do I need to not feed him again for a certain amount of time ? What do you suggest ? I'd like to make bread with him asap but want to make sure I've understood the best way to keep him strong before I do that. Any help hugely appreciated !
Oh, and baby Bob has also got some good structure, although he's so small it's less easy to see the rise as he barely touches the side of his pot !
Thanks in advance !
Lydia
Bob looks ready for bread!
The ideal time to re-feed is once the starter reaches it’s max height and just begins to recede.
This is a good practice that I use quite often. Mark your Weck Jar with a black marking pen. Don’t worry it will easily wash off with soap and water. Mark the initial level of your start and on the side put the time. Every so often when you check on Bob mark the new height and time. As it gets close to it’s close to it’s max height continue to mark the jar. Once the level falls below the high water mark he is ready for food.
A latex glove makes a nice top seal because you can see the gas build up.
Good idea re the marker pen :)
I decided to make some bread yesterday evening, so I went through the following steps : a 45 min autolyse, then shape and fold over 3 hours, then "floor time" of an hour (after the final shape) and then tucking them into their bannetons for the retarded prove in the fridge (5c).
Sadly this morning I'm seeing no rise in the dough although it had lots of lovely bubbles last night .. Could it be that the fridge was too cold ? Or that I need to leave it for longer ? It's had 10 hours so far. Should I put it back in the fridge for longer or leave it out on the counter to warm up again ?
HELP ! :((
Thanks again for the tips !
Lydia
With sourdough you won’t see much rise during a cold retard in the fridge, that is completely normal. I will often leave it in the fridge for about 15 hours or so without much of any rise. It is easier to score the dough once out of the banneton if it is cold so I don’t leave it out on the counter to warm up after cold retard. Instead I turn it out onto parchment paper, score it and put it immediately into the scorching hot Dutch oven in the oven.
Good luck with the bake.
Benny
Bake it! You’ll be surprised at the oven spring!