Hi! Love all the great advice from these forums. I started making my own sourdough a couple of months ago and haven't bought any bread from a shop since! It's so satisfying making your own :)
I experimented a lot with different timings/mixtures and am now baking bread that tastest very good and has a great crust. Best toast ever!
One thing I can't seem to match get right though is scoring the dough before baking - the dough is still quite sticky and the very sharp lame just tears the dough. This and sticking to the banneton mishapes the dough quite badly before it's baked. The loaf turns out OK in the end, perfectly edible and the shape mostly evens out, just a bit lumpy in places, but the cuts don't open up enough to properly stretch in the oven.
This is basically after/before baking so you can see how the dough looks. It just never seems as solid/together as in online videos and cutting just doesn't work as well. This is probably the worst the dough has ever looked before baking so I thought I would use this as an extreme example! When turning the dough out of the banneton it doesn't just fall out, it's quite stuck to the bottom and the other side hangs over my fingers so takes some prizing away. There is plenty of rice flour in the banneton so that's not the problem.
My current recipe for 2 loaves:
1000g strong white flour (just doing this until I master the bake, then adding some wholemeal or similar)
630g water
150 starter
20g salt
This is all at about 22C / 72F so not as warm as I would like, timings are a big longer than most to compensate
5 hours starter growth
1 hour autolyse
2 hours stretch and fold (4 folds)
5hrs 30 first prove (gassy/light and almost double in size, slightly domed at the top)
Shaped and folded into bannetons
15hrs second prove overnight in fridge (in sealed bags)
Baked with Dutch oven (20mins 250C, 20mins 220C without lid)
I'm wondering whether the timings of the bulk fermentation are right, but I find it really tricky to know. It takes about that time to approx double in size, but is sticky to the touch (poking with finger doesn't indent, just brings the dough upwards with my finger). Could that be a sign of under or over proved? Also it doesn't grow a huge amount in the second proof, not sure if it should or not!
This is a hydration I am comfortable with, it's not really sticky on the fingers at all after a few folds. Does the hydration include the starter btw?
Any suggestions for tweaking would be welcome! Thanks :)
Same (left to right) both baked:
I'm curious to see how more expert bakers respond, but I have a few thoughts:
1) the fact that the finger dent test isn't working for you doesn't reflect how well proofed the dough is. If the dough is sticking to your finger it likely means that the dough is too wet/hasn't been developed enough.
2) Reading your post made me think that you were using too much water, but at 630g water it seems like your dough is actually low hydration. I wonder if this indicates that there isn't enough gluten development. Do you knead the dough in the begging or use the windowpane test?
3) If not already doing so, the banneton should be heavily floured to avoid sticking. Perhaps line the banneton with a towel and flour that.
What do you think?
Thanks, perhaps I need to work more on the dough before fermentation. I am just doing stretch and fold, but I'll also try the window pane test before it goes to proofing to double-check. I initially was following a recipe that involved kneading the dough but i really didn't enjoy this method so switched to stretch-and-fold instead.
I have also tried using the banneton covers but the dough sticks to those too.
Waldo, at 66%hydration, sticky should not be a problem. Something is very wrong. Even if the gluten wasn't developed initially, it seems that subsequent folding and time would produce a strong dough.
If your problem is not a warm fridge, it will be interesting to learn the cause.
Danny
the flour amount is 1000g. Water listed 630g or 63%. If starter is 100%, then add half or 75g to 630 to get 705g flour 1075g so 66% hydration. So dough consistency should be very nice with a strong or bread flour. My own European bread flour would be best with just a tiny bit less water, perhaps 600g making for 63% hyd. What I do see is the bulk proof going on too long. Almost double with folding can be deceiving so try shortening it and stay well under "double" before a long cool fermenting. The fermenting time starts with the the addition of leaven so add up everything inc. autolyse in this dough.
I do like the puffiness of the dough and I'm sure the crumb shots will look fine. I might have skipped the scoring if the banneton surface seemed fragile. The DO held it all together during the bake. On a flat baking surface there would have been a lot of spreading.
1. what hydration % is the starter?
2. is the starter based on white flour or whole grain flour? That might indicate relative strength.
3. Assuming 100% hydration starter, you have 75/1075 = 7% pre-fermented flour. That might be too high for 7.5 hours bulk ferment and 15 hours final proof. (Start timing bulk ferment, aka first proof, when starter/levain is mixed in.) I assume your autolyze was before mixing in starter. If you autolyzed with starter, your bulk ferment was 8.5 hours,
4. Right before putting in banneton, "folding" should come before "shaping". Are you really shaping before folding?
5. A sharp razor tearing the dough could be an indicator that the loaf did not develop a dry "skin" during proof. You may not have dusted the boule with flour before putting in banneton. When the boule sticks to banneton or the liner, then possible causes are:
a) too high hydration. (630+75)/(1000+75) = 65.6%, which looks ok at first glance.
b) you didn't dust the boule with enough flour during shaping.
c) you didn't use enough rice/flour mix to line the banneton or banneton liner.
d) Generally not enough moisture was wicked away durng proofing.
e) The boule was over-fermented, due to too long bulk ferment or final proof.
6. What city/country are you in? What's your altitude above sea level?
7. What is the ingredient list of the flour you used?
8. Did you add any other ingredients not mentioned, such as diastatic malt, or dough enhancers?
--
Just judging/guessing by the pics, (would need to see crumb too): it was likely over-fermented/over-proofed, and did not have a sufficient dry skin develop for any of the above reasons.
Suggestion: if you want to keep the same bulk ferment/proof schedule, use only 100 g starter next time, use a banneton liner to wick away more surface moisture, use more rice flour/wheat flour to cost the banneton liner.
Wow thanks for the detailed reply!
The starter is 1:1:1 (starter:water:flour) and is just based on the same strong white flour I'm using the make the dough. I do the float test and it passes at 5 hours.
Yes I autolysed for an hour before the salt/starter was added.
Yes I folded before shaping, I just wrote it the wrong way round :)
I definitely dusted a fair bit with the rice flour before dropping the dough in the banneton, I think it's just too sticky still, the other/seam side just drips over and in between my fingers when I'm trying to tap it out onto my hand. Maybe I'll add some more flour to the boule when shaping.
I'm in the UK and I always forget after we recently moved but we're actually 722ft above sea level so quite high. Is this quite a factor? We're in the north of England in quite a cold house but we have rennovated one floor and where I proof it has underfloor heating and is a constant 22C.
Nothing additional added to the mix but I'm reading the ingredients list of Allisons Strong White bread flour and it contains:
Wheat flour (Calcium carbonate, Iron, Niacin, Thiamin)
Flour treatment agents: Alpha-Amylase, Hemicellulase.
This method is based on Joshua Weissman's no-knead one, but with measurements I found elsewhere for 2 x 500g loaves and I'm playing it by ear with timings due to the room temperature (and I don't have a heated proofing box): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eod5cUxAHRM&feature=youtu.be
Cross-section attached. Now I'm looking at this, I have made it plenty of times with more air holes but this seems a bit tighter (it has also been easier to get out of the banneton on other occasions, I would love to know why!)
It does sound like there wasn't enough dry skin, so it was just tricky to handle when it got to that stage. I'll try using less starter and the liner.
Thanks for all the help!
..."the other/seam side just drips over and in between my fingers when I'm trying to tap it out onto my hand. "
That sounds like it's getting deflated in the process. Deflation affects/ruins skin tightness and scoring. If the boule deflates, the skin gets too loose to get a good score.
At 1 kg each, I think the boules are too large to hold in one hand, so I'd recommend working a better transfer method.
My dutch oven has a long handle (Lodge 3.2 qt combo cooker), and I invert the pre-heated dutch oven over the banneton, and flip them over together, so I never touch/handle the dough.
I use a linen lined banneton that is 8" inner diameter across the top. I probably use at least two tablespoons of rice/wheat flour combo to dust the linen liner. Plus, before putting shaped boule in the banneton it is generously dusted with white flour, or fine whole wheat pastry flour. I usually use 88% to 90% hydration for my whole wheat loaves.
If your D.O. does not have a long handle, maybe you could flip the boule from banneton to counter top, or onto parchment paper. And use two hands to transfer to D.O., or pick it up with the p-paper, and lower the dough with the p-paper included into the D.O., then trim off excess p-paper, and just let the paper cook with the dough in the dutch oven.
DanAyo is better at analyzing crumb than I am. And I agree with him that it is over proofed.
(By the way, 722 feet ASL is not enough to make altitude adjustments. So you're good there.)
(American flours generally use malted barley flour to provide enzymes. alpha-amylase is a replacement for malted barley flour. Hemicellulase breaks down hemicellulose into simple sugars. It's just another source for sugar, and i don't know if it's good or bad for sourdough.
I had to adjust the amount of my starter to the length of bulk ferment and proof. 7% prefermented flour worked out for me with a 4.5 hr bulk ferment and 1.5 hour proof. Going overnight with either bulk or proof, I had to lower it to 3.5%. Less starter allows more ferment/proof time. More starter allows less ferment/proof time.
Just one more note: As you experiment to get your formula "dialed in", If the dough looks too slack to score, you don't absolutely have to score it. Forkish doesn't usually score (at least in the video I saw.) If the bread needs to rupture, it will on its own.
Waldo,I read your post a couple of times and could not provide a suggestion. But the third time was a charm.
” 15hrs second prove overnight in fridge (in sealed bags)”
From the looks of the dough in the banneton, It looks grossly over-proofed. I can’t be sure from the baked loaves because in the image they look pretty good. I agree with the other poster, a crumb shot will tell us more. (Update - after seeing the crumb shot, it is over-proofed. I actually like your crumb, if only the loaf would have gotten oven spring.) I bet your refrigerator is not cold enough. Try this. Place a glass of water in the fridge at the same location that you proof your dough. Leave it there for 5 hours, then check the temp. Please let us know your findings.
The difference between only a few degrees can make a huge difference. Temperature at or over 40F is capable of over-fermentation when retarded 15 hr.
Assuming your levain is 100% hydration, a dough of 66% should be extremely manageable and not sticky.
HTH,
Danny
Thanks, the fridge is actually quite new and high-tech, it's set to 3C (37.4F) but I'll check with the glass of water test overnight too.
The pic of the dough pre-baked is sat in the bottom of the dutch oven, but after I tried scoring it. Before this, it's kinda domed shaped but a bit flat. The scoring just ruins it!
I guess I'm timing 15hrs but I bake 2 loaves, so by the time I get to the second one it's more like 16 hrs. Then again they both usually turn out pretty much the same. Crumb pic above :)
I would try doing the bulk ferment only to a 30 percent with a maximum of 50 percent increase in size. Also flour the top during bench rest before shaping.
to 600g for a lower hydration. I think the hydration is too high. Might even hold back more. Measure the 600g and save back a little in the beaker in case you need it while mixing up the dough.
Thanks all! As well as flouring the dough more before shaping, I will amend the method one step at a time with the above suggestions and see what happens.
Reducing the 1st proof time
Lowering the hydration or starter amount
Reducing the 2nd proof time
My initial thoughts are that the dough is over-proofed it looks too puffy and this would cause the dough to feel sticky, also I expect it collapsed somewhat overnight in the banneton. I'm not sure that the dough was shaped properly was it stretched during the pre-shape to get that nice taught surface. If these were the issues scoring the dough would indeed be challenging. Just a thought on scoring I have found wetting the blade with water helps. One last point, what was the time duration from when you mixed in the starter to when you either pre-shaped or shaped the dough. I ask this as fermentation begins as soon as you add the starter to the dough.