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Open crumb but mostly around the edges

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Open crumb but mostly around the edges

Hey!

 

I was wondering if anyone could help! For the most part I'm happy with my bread as It's a more open crumb than I've managed to achieve before but the larger areas seem to gather mostly around the edge, although  not entirely  is  this correct or something I should aim to avoid?

I used a mixture of bread flour and wholemeal flour with a hydration of 75 % (I think? Still learning...). I done an autolyse (I think ?): of around an hour,  mixed and then a bulkof around 4 hours, with 4 sets of stretch and folds, preshaped with a 20 minute bench rest then shaped and into the fridge for around 12 hours.  Baked straight from fridge on a tray with a bowl over the top.

Any and all comments/advice most welcome and greatly appreciated! 

David R's picture
David R

All the "good" bubbles being concentrated at the upper edge, and the rest being too dense, can mean that this loaf was somewhat under-proofed. That's not the only possibility, but it's a reasonable guess.

HOWEVER, ... Are you really convinced that there's a problem? I'm not in your kitchen, but it looks like good bread to me.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you! It did spring better than I thought so underproving was a suspect for me. It didn't go crazy and burst all over though so hopefully I was close!

That being said, as you say I'm not sure about it being too much of a problem. It tastes good and got a decent spring which I struggled with my last few...and I've always wanted to achieve bigger bubbles which it did. I mostly wanted to know if I had done something very obviously wrong and if it was the right kind of big bubbles I suppose haha. 

I am still trying to get to grips with when to end bulk fermentation when I then go on to shape and prove in the fridge. I read a lot but sometimes tie myself in knots with the different thoughts. I guess it is what works for you, your flour and environment really! No complaints about playing around that's for sure! My favourite part of baking is even my mistakes are satisfying for the most part!

I made the king Arthur extra tangy religiously up until recently and decided to try a different recipe and process to see if it changed the crumb...which it definitely has! I guess I'll see how the next one goes with a little longer proving to see! Thanks so much for the reply! 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

looks a bit on the underproofed side but that does not mean anything is wrong with the loaf and I am sure it tastes great...

Here is a good recent link from a baker on IG and Kristen did an experiment with different bulk fermentation times... you might find that useful ....Do you know at what temperature you are bulking? It can be very useful to compare loaf to loaf, if you try to keep variables consistent and to eliminate where potential problems could be...I baked the same loaf with the same flour again and again until I got a feel for the different stages...I hope this makes sense.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxkOC-mn74T/

Happy baking, Kat

Benito's picture
Benito

That is a good post on instagram and very helpful to us newbies.  Thanks for posting the link Kat.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

if it helped and there is so much useful information out there......

The learning never ends...Happy baking... Kat

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you this looks really helpful!

Temperature isn't something I have kept track of consistently but I probably should! I reckon this one was around 25 celcius at a guess. I wonder, would it be best to add more time onto the bulk or to shape, banneton and prove  (proof?) a while before refrigerating?  Is there a difference between the two? Sorry if this is a silly question!

Thanks a lot for your reply!

 

 

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

variables and it just makes it easier to compare each bake...

Key things I would check in case of underfermenation are:

1. Is my starter happy and strong? 

2. Watch the dough during bulk fermentation not just the clock. I mark my container where my dough settles as a guidance and then normally at 25C things get interesting around 3 hours or so...There is a lapse the first three hours or so I find where nothing much seems to happen and then the dough starts to move and keep an eye out for that...

Now...people recommend the dough to rise between 30-50% and look for that domed look around the edges and bubbles inside the dough. 

I also found recenlty a very good tip from an amazing  baker in South Korea https://www.instagram.com/mothersoven/?hl=en and the tip is to cut a piece of dough when you think your bulk is finished and put it in a glass with room temp water. If it floats the dough is ready for pre-shape..

I tried it out a couple of times and seems to be a good helper alongside the other signs to look out for...

So, if you think that your starter is ok I would let bulk go maybe a bit longer and look for a 50% rise and try that float the dough test?

If you go for a 30-50% rise during bulk then I would pre-shape and let the dough rest for 30 min to relax.

Final shape and NOW - how cold or warm is your fridge? I had a warmer fridge at 7C  and overproofed many doughs in it without realizing!!! If you have a very cold fridge at 3C then you probably can let the loaf in the banneton sit for 30 min and then put it in the fridge. 

If you have a warmer fridge then probably best to put it straight into the fridge...if that makes sense...You will have to play around a bit with that and see what timings get best results for you in your kitchen.

If the dough gets very proofy in bulk and you have a  higher rise of dough in the bulk, the shaping gets harder and you need less time for bench rest after pre-shape and better to put into the fridge quickly... ...all linked together... 

I hope this makes sense....

Kat

p.s. also bear in mind that the more percentage of WW flour you use, the faster moving a dough you will have...and this will also have a bearing on your bulk fermentation and final proof...

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you so much kat! You have really taken the time to explain things to me and I am very grateful for it. 

My starter...well, I think it is ok! It lives on my counter and follows a clear pattern, rising up takes probably around 5 hours and it gets nice and bubbly. The only thing that throws me with it is it doesn't look like some I see in other people's pictures...some look very wildly bubbly around the glass where as mine doesn't look quite like that. I had read this could be to do with me having a liquid starter. I have used the float test to check my starter which it passes but outwith this I cannot be certain of its health. Is there anything I should be looking out for? Also I had never heard of using float test on dough but it makes total sense...I will definitely try this alongside other methods. 

My fridge is a new Fridge which says it's around 4 degrees however I have ordered a thermometer to double check all temps as I'll drive myself nuts without being able to take some control haha. 

All makes sense to me and some great food for thought for my next bake. I am going to keep at this new recipe the way I did with the king Arthur one and see how I get on from there. Thank you again!

Emma.

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

You can tell by how the area of density is coiled around the middle of the loaf that the problem is shaping.  Also, I can tell by the wildness of the crumb that it wasn't stretch and folded enough during bulk. 

Instead of doing what you did to shape it, try a method that is more relaxed. Maurizio Leo has a slow motion video on his Instagram that is perfect for this scenario. 

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Yes I think you are right and I've had some shaping issues too! I have always used the same method so perhaps changing this up could be wise...I will have a look at this video thank you. The method I use at present is folding the sides and tops into centre, flipping then bench rest then same again and this time rotating using hands and bench scraper to rotate for tightness.

With regards to stretches in bulk this was something I had not thought about. When you say not enough is that in terms of the number of sets or how I actually perform the stretch and folds? I wonder if sometimes I am perhaps too gentle in fear of damaging gluten.  I done 4 sets for this dough however I wonder if I did not spread the time well also. I done them every half hour then the dough was left for the last couple of hours untouched....in my head I thought I'd get a better crumb this way but the more I reflect it could be that the gas was no dispersed well enough because of this, I wonder if that could be an issue!

Thanks so much for the food for thought. Half of the fun seems to be learning from mistakes and imperfections to strive for the perfect loaf. However seeing more experienced bakers posts I don't think it exists haha,always striving for more!

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

Stretch and folds: 4 is a good number.  I've done it the way you describe with fine results.  But if you're noticing big unsightly holes in your bread, stretch those folds out over the course of the 4 hours instead of just 2.  I've never noticed a big improvement in the openness of crumb from keeping the stretch and folds to the beginning, but I have noticed big, unsightly holes in my bread from doing so.  You want to be gentle with your stretch and folds, just enough to create layers and tension.  That being said, I don't think its your big problem here.  The problem is...

Shaping: You've reversed the proper procedure.  Use that bench knife to push the dough into a round on the preshape, then do envelope folds and roll the dough up for the shape.  Now that you told me your procedure, it makes sense.  In the past, I shaped the preround too tight with my bench knife, and got that area of density in the center just like your loaf.  So again, preshape a little tight with your hands and bench knife rotating it into a ball, then gently shape after the rest, using only your hands.  

Your fermentation looks fine.  With 75% hydration, you won't get legendary openness, but if you only improve your shaping, you will have an excellent loaf. 

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you this is really useful. I am going to try preshaping and shaping as you described for my next loaf. My preshape and final shape are essentially one in the same thing so hopefully changing this will see some differing results!

I have no idea why I got it into my head doing all of the stretch and folds early on was the best idea ? what you say makes sense!

If I can bother you with one more question that has been confusing me. When it comes to mixing the dough, some seem to mix only then proceed with stretch and folds to build gluten while others mix, knead and then proceed with stretch and folds. Is there a reason for the difference?

 

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

The first method you describe is the Tartine method, popularized by Chad Robertson and co. back in the late 90s.  The theory here is that you are going to achieve maximum openness and an unpredictable wild crumb by reducing the amount of dough handling.  The wetter (80% hydration +) doughs used in this method ferment quickly, so the frequent stretch and folds plus the quick buildup of gas are enough to build gluten strength and structure. 

In the intervening 15-20 years this strategy has become less common.  Mixing/kneading by hand using fractional hydration and some variation of the Rabaud method creates a nice elastic dough that will hold tension and have a much better oven spring than loaves made with the Tartine method, without sacrificing the openness.  Also, you can use a higher innoculation (12-15%) and have a loaf ready for the fridge in 2-3 hours rather than the 4-6 hours the Tartine method needs to properly develop gluten with only stretch and folds. 

You kneaded the dough to proper gluten development at the beginning, I believe?  That is what I recommend.  

Emma268's picture
Emma268

 This is a great straightforward explanation, as I said before sometimes I tie myself up in knots with all the different approaches! I did not knead this bread, done an autolyse then mixed it together with the levain and went on to do the 4 stretch and folds. Will have to try kneading first and see how I get on! Thanks for your all of your help and tips it's greatly appreciated 

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

Ah, I see.  That's probably why you have the big holes in the bread even after 4 stretch and folds.  No problem, let us know how the next loaf turns out. 

calneto's picture
calneto

I also agree with the over (this was a typo, it should be under) proofed conclusion. But it is not by a large margin. Here, at 26C I got my best results bulking for 6h21, then retarded in the fridge for another 13h or so. I followed Kristen's method (fullproofbaking): 4h autolyse, no kneading, but 5 folds (counting a lamination as one of those, namely fold #2).

I'd try leaving your dough an extra hour or so next time and see how it comes out.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you I agree I think it's definitely underproved and I've had some shaping issues too! In reality I have probably many issues haha but I'll start narrowing it down somewhere ?✊

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

Here you go Emma, 

I got my pictures off my girlfriend's phone, so here is my most recent loaf.  It is 80% hydration, so a little wetter than yours, but I fermented for 2.5 hours, then preshaped, rest 1/2 hour, then in the fridge for 16 hours.  

Now, there are a lot of people telling you you've underproofed, but my bread has fermented less time than yours.  I promise you, your fermentation is fine.  Just work on that shaping.  I've gotten lacier, more open crumb from a 3 or even 3.5 hour fermentation, but I prefer this artisan style now.  Good luck with your next loaf!

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

So you think the bread is overproofed, but you want her to ferment it for an extra hour next time?

What makes you think this bread has the wrong degree of proof?

Its perfectly fermented, you can tell by the bubbly crumb.  Its a shaping issue. 

calneto's picture
calneto

I'm impressed with how you managed to get such a crumb with so short a bulk, BakersRoom.

But his loaf is also denser at many spots. Why do you think this is so? Do you think he applied to much tension to the point that the gas bubbles were too compressed?

Kristen (from fullproofbaking) recently posted a series of 3 loaves, that she proofed at 4h, 7h and 10h. The 4h loaf clearly has denser spots, even though she uses high hydration (at least 80%, maybe 85%), so that only adds to my awe at your loaf.

I have now read your explanations and they cover my questions. Still, I am surprised that you achieve these results with what you consider a high innoculation of 15%! I use 20% and my best result so far, using Kristen's method was this here (77% hydration):



BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

The OP, Emma, for sure tightened the dough far too much by doing her final shaping with a bench knife.  That is no question why the bread is coiled densely around the center, but on the edges seems just as open as your pictured loaf.  

I've never experienced Kristen from foolproof baking, but I've been hearing a lot about her lately.  Like I say, I use a 12.5% innoculation, so 100g levain for an 800g loaf.  But that levain is made from 50% rye and 50% whole wheat flour, and is given a high innoculation itself:  So, I take 40g of my ripe and healthy starter, add 40g water, 20g rye 20g WW, and ferment for 3-4 hours at 78 degrees (I have a proofer, so I can get my temperature constant and exact, which is important).  Then I mix in the levain and ferment the dough for the loaf at 78 degrees for 2.5 hours, with stretch and folds every half hour.  The stretch and folds and the relatively high temp, along with the whole grain levain allow quick fermentation. 

Maybe Kristen uses 100% white levain, which has less leavening power, and maybe she proofs at a more average room temp like 68 degrees.  In that case, I can see how she'd need a 6-8 hour fermentation, even at a 15-20% innoculation.  

 

calneto's picture
calneto

You compute your innoculation based on the total dough weight, rather than total added flour weight. If I bake a 80% total hydration loaf with 800g of total dough mass, this means that I have 400g flour and use 20% of that as levain, or 80g. So, you are actually using more levain than I am (25% more, to be precise).

Kristen uses 10% rye and 90% bread flour. I sometimes use 50% whole wheat, sometimes add a little rye, it varies.

From what I remember, Kristen also bulks at similar temperatures that you do. For me, my room temperature is hardly ever below these 78F, so I usually have to monitor for overheating instead.

So, you do not knead as well. The times I have attempted a loaf without kneading and such a short autolyze did not go well. Same goes for the rubaud method. But I am still new at the craft, so maybe I will revisit these methods at some point.

Right now I am more interested in finding out if things will work out if I autolyze overnight in the fridge also at higher hydrations (so far, only did this with 75%). This would help me time wise.

As for shaping, what you say seems to confirm some suspicions I have had for a while. I was rounding the dough very vigorously in the pre-shape and could only get very small alveoli. The past couple of loaves I eased up on that and the pockets grew in size. I even went for the shaping in which you only fold left and right and then roll (cinching, I believe it is called).

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

I've always calculated starter % based on total dough weight, as per the school of Trevor Wilson. It really doesn't matter in the end though.  

Rye is a superpowerful leavener.  There is no substitute.  I'm amazed at what it can do to a starter. 

I knead, I'm not sure where you got the idea I didn't.  I use Rabaud method.  

Overnight refrigerated autolyse works just fine with 80% hydration bread, in my experience, but this hydration endures an autolyse at room temp that produces well developed gluten in the 3-8 hour range, which is flexible enough for me, and I don't have to worry about the dough being too cold.  I guess with your warm house, it isn't a problem, so go nuts. 

Cinching is the bomb.  Its how you get open crumb.  Maybe in 85% hydration bread, you need stitching, but with my 80%, cinching is perfect. 

calneto's picture
calneto

my 85th loaf (I keep a record on them) is now sitting at the fridge, waiting to be baked in the morning.

Today I autolyzed for a shorter period, 2h43 and it all went just fine. I'm starting to believe that I can go even shorter. I do not knead, but in the method I am currently following, you should add the levain, mix it in, wait 30', add the salt, mix it in, wait additional 30' and then proceed with the folds. It also includes a lamination as a second fold and a vigorous, 'out of the box' first fold (the remaining folds are coil folds). I have tried the Rubaud mixing a couple of times, but did not like it. I did not notice any gluten development. But Kristen's method works just fine. The two mixing routines before the first out of the box fold already help build up some gluten and by the beginning of the coil folds, the dough already feels rather developed. I like the method. I'll try to stick to it, with some minor variations, if my loaves continue to come out nice (this is only the second one following her method).

I have kept hydration at 78%, since I used 20% spelt, which supposedely does not contribute much to the gluten mesh. Maybe next time I'll try 80%.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Could you share a link that shows Kristen's method or point me in the direction of where I could find it? I used the rubaud method for this and im  wondering if I didn't develop gluten enough which contributed to my spreading. I hope your bake works out as you planned!

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Got some dough ready to go in the oven it's just preheating. I am hoping for a better crumb...but we will see. I done my bulk for just around the 4 hour mark again at 25-26degress celcius but decided once in the basket to leave for a half hour before putting in the fridge. My theory is that while underproofing may have played a part there was no bursting etc so it probably wasn't my main issue. I didn't want to mess about with the fermentation time too much as well as changing shaping at the same time as I may not get answers that way.

I preshaped looser as suggested and on the final shape after envelope fold used my hands more than my bench knife. I am not used to this method yet, I'd been relying on my bench knife so I was maybe a bit clumsy at points but I did try to be gentle. I guess we will see how they turn out haha. 

Can I ask, when shaping after preshape how many times should I rotate the ball for tension. Should 2 or 3 times suffice or is this just dependent on skill? I suppose I am not sure how much tension is too much tension or how much handling is too much handling. I think I know the answer is practice practice but I'll mine for tips all the same haha.

Thanks for all of the Input. I don't normally find time for a midweek bake but after all the tips I just couldn't wait til the weekend!

Benito's picture
Benito

Can't wait to see how this loaf turns out Emma.  Please post photos.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Things did not go quite to plan haha, a habit of mine.

I had issues with the dough spreading once out of the basket for the first loaf, which meant as it was baking it attached to the bowl I place over it when baking. When it was time to take the bowl off to finish baking the,bread had stuck to the bowl! Less than ideal haha. It had to finish baking with a big chunk missing.... whoops! 

Second loaf stuck to the banneton on the way out and had to be forced out which damaged the shape a fair bit...it was then too spread to have the bowl placed over   so it was baked entirely uncovered, so results are not great this time over.

I think perhaps keeping the dough out a half hour before going in the fridge could have pushed me to overproving? As well as still issues with shaping. That was my initial thoughts but I'm unsure and welcome opinion. I thought overproving because the dough spread so much out  of basket which wasn't  an issue  last  bake. I guess being badly shaped would cause this too though.

With the first loaf there are still some larger bubbles near the edge but less of an issue, although the crumb is not terribly open. Definitely still some shaping issues at play here I think also.

Bread also didn't have a great rise or spread well at the score despite a fairly deep cut which makes me think that extra half hour may have lead me to overproving....Fridge was set to 3 degrees but read 4 on thermometer. 

With the larger holes in the second loaf  i could also be the victim of misshaping again..  and the damage coming out of the banneton? Not sure that would cause that mind you, but that's based on a feeling and not much else haha. I done the same with both loaves but they are entirely different...each had their own issues at the end so I suppose that would make sense.

I will have to wait until my weekend bake to see if j can improve on this, fingers crossed for better results. In the meantime, the bread does taste very nice so I can't be too upset haha. I think I'll need to squeeze in a mid week bake now alongside weekend bakes to get more practice! I can't complain, my family love bread it won't go to waste.

Here are some pictures, I haven't sliced the second loaf yet so only a few badly sliced ones from the first . Apologies if the pictures aren't right, it seems I have lost all tech capabilities at the ripe age of 30. Oh dear. 

Any comments and observations are really appreciated!

First loaf which stuck to bowl

First loaf which stuck to bowl during baking

Second loaf which stuck to banneton on way out

Second loaf which stuck to banneton on way out

Slices of first loaf, very badly sliced may I add haha

 

calneto's picture
calneto

 I always line my basket with a cloth. After my dough stuck to the banneton two or three times I gave up on having the nice imprint on the bread. Lately I simply perform a coil fold upon removing the dough from the box and then proceed straight to shaping by cinching. Check out how Kristen does it.

Benito's picture
Benito

I’ve had problems with sticking to cloth or banneton when using only flour as I used to do.  Now that I have rice flour, I can easily get my doughs out of the banneton even without the cloth.  Have you tried dusting the banneton with rice flour yet Emma?

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Yes I have started using rice flour, it's great!I hadn't had a problem with one coming out of the banneton for a while because I used cloth but decided to give it a go without again, so it was frustrating haha. possibly overproving at play and probably have not went heavy enough with the rice flour too. Gonna use a cloth next time just to avoid the heart ache then I'll try again cloth free haha. I only have one banneton at the moment and prove the other in a paper bowl from hospital (I stress this is unused haha) with a cloth inside and that came off no problems so I reckon a bit more flour or a cloth could have saved that one from its fate. Next time!

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Hi benito

do you think rice flour browns too much? I find my loaves get too dark dusted with rice flour.  However I used a gluten free mix which is mostly rice but has buckwheat and a few other grains 

Benito's picture
Benito

White rice flour doesn’t brown that much, many bakers who wish to do decorative scoring will dust the dough prior to baking and the white rice flour stays quite white.

Benny

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Thanks for your reply.  It must be one of the other grains in that mix that's browning too much then.  I blamed the rice flour because it's mostly that in the mix.  I'll try 100% rice flour next time.  

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you I will check this out!

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

Well, at least we dealt with the dense middle issue.  The crumb on your first loaf (stuck to the bowl) is even for the most part, so that tells me your shaping was better in that sense. 

I'm going to talk only about your first bread, because the one that got stuck to the banneton was likely damaged by that, and that accounts for the dense bottom crumb and overly open crumb above that. 

So that first bread is only slightly overproofed from my what I can see.  You want to have some explosiveness that causes the bread to have a half circle shape rather than a rectangular shape, so just back the ferment off a little.  Maybe that half hour, or just a little more.  

But I think that if you'd shaped the bread to hold a bit more tension, you could have had a better loaf even with that level of ferment.  

Here is a link to the video I recommended: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/guides/shaping-a-batard/

Notice how he doesn't use the bench knife at all. 

As for the preshape, I usually only turn 5 or less times, gently and just until the dough is relatively round.   

I think you're on your way to having the loaf you want.  A few more practice loafs, and your family will be eating gourmet bread. 

Emma268's picture
Emma268

I'm hopeful of this! I feel like I'm learning things from the mistakes the last couple of bakes rather than wondering what witchcraft was at play haha.  The crumb on the first loaf was definitely more even, so I'm hoping I've improved on something there although with work still to be done! And of course the creation of another problem for good measure ha.

I know shaping is what I need most practice on so I will keep practicing on it and watching this video and others until I can get my hands on some dough again! It was tricky getting used to using my hands more to shape and bench knife less so hopefully next time will feel more familiar.

Gonna go back to putting my dough straight into the fridge when shaped this time and pay closer attention nearer the end of Bulk...hopefully this will set me on the right path.  I kneaded it using the wet dough kneading method in a Trevor Wilson video, I will probably stick with that next time too as the dough did seem very nice.  Hoping to add a Dutch oven into the mix soon, so that'll probably throw up its own problems as I get used to that haha. 

I made some sourdough pizza tonight which turned out better than the bread, although my oven decided to cut off mid way through baking the second. It has just been one of those clumsy days for me haha.

Thanks again for your input!

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

I've been looking at it, and that first loaf was pretty good.  Its a few adjustments away from being perfect.  

Dutch ovens make it so much easier.  You will thank yourself that you made the switch.  

Sourdough pizza is my favorite.  The dough is hard to over or underproof.  The main trick is getting that perfectly thin crust with the hollow cornicone.  

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Do you have any recommendations for a decent Dutch oven that doesn't break the bank? I've also seen there are combo cookers which do a similar job! I'm based in Scotland and from what I can tell Dutch ovens are casserole dishes here....does that sound about right?

calneto's picture
calneto

Yes, from what I googled, that is what it is called. At least in amazon UK.

Here in Brazil, the fancy Creuset pots are out of my league (almos 600 gbp!). I bought a cast iron combo set, which here goes for 36 GBP. Mine is similar to this one here, but a bit larger (25cm diameter):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/VonShef-Pre-Seasoned-Black-Double-Handles/dp/B077B9MB25/ref=pd_sbs_328_11?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B077B9MB25&pd_rd_r=b4435729-7d6d-11e9-9ff2-d5fd6dee570d&pd_rd_w=DVhmU&pd_rd_wg=mqF86&pf_rd_p=18edf98b-139a-41ee-bb40-d725dd59d1d3&pf_rd_r=QDGM67T4T1S5THQBBFA3&psc=1&refRID=QDGM67T4T1S5THQBBFA3

 

I recommend one with this design. You can use it upside down, with the frying pan as the base. I only pre-heat the casserole and leave the pan outside. I then easily put the dough in the cold pan, close it with the hot casserole and put it into the oven.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

The crueset ones are expensive here too, you can get the odd bargain in tkmaxx but for the most part waaaay out of my price range haha. 

I had actually been looking at that exact one but wondered if it might be too small. They have the other version too which seems a bit larger but I did like the idea of it having the frying pan part as I imagine I'd find it easier to decant the dough. spotted a casserole dish  style lodge one in tkmaxx today at a very reasonable price so I'll have another look online and settle on something soon before I get analysis paralysis haha. 

David R's picture
David R

As long as you are getting a pot of the size, shape, and materials that you intend, then the names are interchangeable, yes. The main pitfalls to avoid, from a baker's point of view, are:

  • Not the material you wanted - each type has its advantages
  • Too heavy - i.e. difficult to manage
  • Too thin/too light - i.e. if you wanted it for its ability to heat up and stay hot in order to brown your crust, most lightweight materials can't do this. A thick strong aluminium pot is light-ish in weight and manages heat surprisingly well (performs FAR better than stainless steel, closer to iron) - too bad aluminium is out of fashion now, after the false scare over cooking on it.
  • Any parts not safe to put in a hot oven - some pots designed for use on the stove top (hob) look as if they'd be just the thing, until you notice that the handles or whatever are going to melt in your oven.

About Le Creuset: There are copies by other makers all over the place, obviously. The main difference between Le Creuset and a bad copy is that the bad copy has poor-quality enamel that flakes off, chips off, or is very easily damaged. The difference between Le Creuset and a good copy is... pretty much just the price sticker.

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

When I say dutch oven, I mean cast iron combo cooker.  They are the way to go.  Cheap, never break, multi-use, heat up quick.  They're the best. 

David R's picture
David R

And, to translate: A "cast-iron combo cooker" has no enamel anywhere, just bare iron; and it has a lid that rests flat and stable upside down, so that the lid doubles as a usable baking dish (in fact, a usable baking dish with an optional super-tall lid that's also known as "the bottom half of the cooker" ?).

calneto's picture
calneto

like I said, mine has a diameter of 25cm. For round loaves, this is fine, but for oval ones, it is a bit too small. For instance, I had to buy an additional banneton, since the first one I ordered online is 27cm. Some people end up buying two such casserole combos: a round one and an oval one.

David R's picture
David R

It really depends on what you want to make in it... But yes, loaves that are on the long/narrow end of the spectrum take up a surprising amount of room. Too bad that "ultra-shallow ultra-long Dutch oven" is not a popular item - you could stack them up in your oven and bake baguettes 15 at a time. ?

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Well I have made my purchase but I will see when it arrives how suitable it is after reading some of these comments haha.

I couldn't find a combo style one the right size without a huge delivery price tag, so I've went for a cast iron pot with no enamel. Things going through my head at the moment mostly are that it may be too heavy to manage and I might find it tricky getting the dough in. I guess like all other things I would probably get used to it! I think the pot has to be seasoned after each use which does sound a bit of a faff but I'm ok with that part as I am always faffing around my kitchen anyway. Won't be delivered on time for my next loaf which I'll bake tomorrow so I'll be relying on my trusty tray and pyrex bowl until then haha. I might branch out and use the pizza stone if I feel wild.

This was all really helpful in understanding the differences in the cooking equipment, thanks a lot!

calneto's picture
calneto

You can get a sheet of teflon paper, and then cut it in a shape that is circular, but with two straps, so that you can lower the loaf into the hot pan. Many people do this. This way you don't have to drop the load into the pan.

You can see what I am talking about on this video here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bw93nhvnP1x/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

 

And, by the way, I have never seasoned my pot. It came pre-seasoned, I guess. Since I only use it for my loaves, I never felt the need to do it.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

This is really helpful, thanks a lot. Seems like the perfect solution! 

I think it does come pre seasoned so maybe j will get away with it too. 

Benito's picture
Benito

Emma, I put my loaves into my Dutch oven, not a combo cooker, so it has high sides I need to navigate.  I flip my banneton proofed dough onto the parchment, score it and then lower it into the Dutch oven.  Once in there, I use a wooden spoon to push the parchment away from the dough right against the sides of the Dutch oven so that the parchment paper doesn’t interfere with the expanding loaf as it bakes.  Before I figured out to do that, the parchment would cause my bread to come out really oddly shaped.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

 thank you for sharing this learning curve that is totally something that would have happened to me haha!

Benito's picture
Benito

It happened to me more times than I want to admit before I figured it out, silly me.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Baked a loaf today (actually two but more on that in a mo haha). Didn't have great oven spring, again not a great spread at the score. Still some density on the crumb but the big holes don't seem as confined to the edges... I can't tell if this is better or worse than my first post haha. Can't be certain but I think this one went over again.  I done an autolyse of about 2 hours, kneaded for 10 then rested for 10 and kneaded again for 5. The dough seemed well developed. I Left for 4 hours bulk fermentation done four stretch and folds over first 2 hours, left another hour then performed a final stretch and fold and left for one hour more. Loosely preshaped and bench rested for 15 mins then envelope folded and then shaped into a tight round gently using my hands. I felt like I had got a good shape on this one, I got it as tight as I could on final shape without it beginning to tear. I then put it straight in the fridge, ended up there for closer to 14 hours. It spread a bit when flipped out of the banneton and conformed to the shape of the bowl whilst baking (although didn't stick thankfully) didn't have great spring in the oven (baked with bowl covering). 

So I'm figuring I've went a bit over with this again. The dough was very bubbly at the end of Bulk, bubblier than what I'm used to but seemed fine when shaping it didn't seem to deflate etc...so If it is over would this mean it happened in the fridge overnight? My fridge is cold and reads 3 degrees. I am wondering if I should toy with baking the same day. I just love the convenience and extra flavour from the cold proof overnight.

Another point to mention is bulk was pretty consistently at 25 celcius ambient temp for most of the time but in the last hour or so I was cooking in my kitchen and I think the temp would have crept up while I was preoccupied. 

Furthering my having gone over suspicion is there was a second loaf...dun dun duuuun... which was a bit of a disaster haha. Same issue with sticking to the bowl as last time. This dough spread even further when removed from the banneton (it had extra time in the fridge whilst the first baked) causing the bowl sticking during baking again, but this time it ripped in half when I tried to free it...doh!(or should I say dough!?...although it was mostly baked ?). Interestingly before this dough ripped in two, although it didn't spring amazingly well... it did have a good spread at the score...no picture of that though as it was decapitated before I got the chance haha. I think it is worth mentioning although the dough spread was the main issue with the second loaf, when I divided the dough for preshaping my eyeballing was way off and this loaf was a good bit bigger...I think my bowl would not have been big enough for it and it would have stuck anyway...I took the gamble and it did not pay off haha. I will have my Dutch oven by the next loaf...yay! This recipe I am still getting used to and the loaves are slightly bigger than ones I had made previously with another recipe. I think the bowl is no longer a workable solution. The Dutch oven should help! Although I still have issues to overcome...

I think my plan for my next bake is to take my bulk ferment back a little more again, continue to work on my shaping and see how I go from there. Any advice or observations greatly recieved. I've only made this recipe three times now so I want to stick with it a bit longer until I get something I'm happy with.

The dough at the end of Bulk 

Baked loaf

 

Crumb 

 

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Baked a loaf today (actually two but more on that in a mo haha). Didn't have great oven spring, again not a great spread at the score. Still some density on the crumb but the big holes don't seem as confined to the edges... I can't tell if this is better or worse than my first post haha. Can't be certain but I think this one went over again.  I done an autolyse of about 2 hours, kneaded for 10 then rested for 10 and kneaded again for 5. The dough seemed well developed. I Left for 4 hours bulk fermentation done four stretch and folds over first 2 hours, left another hour then performed a final stretch and fold and left for one hour more. Loosely preshaped and bench rested for 15 mins then envelope folded and then shaped into a tight round gently using my hands. I felt like I had got a good shape on this one, I got it as tight as I could on final shape without it beginning to tear. I then put it straight in the fridge, ended up there for closer to 14 hours. It spread a bit when flipped out of the banneton and conformed to the shape of the bowl whilst baking (although didn't stick thankfully) didn't have great spring in the oven (baked with bowl covering). 

So I'm figuring I've went a bit over with this again. The dough was very bubbly at the end of Bulk, bubblier than what I'm used to but seemed fine when shaping it didn't seem to deflate etc...so If it is over would this mean it happened in the fridge overnight? My fridge is cold and reads 3 degrees. I am wondering if I should toy with baking the same day. I just love the convenience and extra flavour from the cold proof overnight.

Another point to mention is bulk was pretty consistently at 25 celcius ambient temp for most of the time but in the last hour or so I was cooking in my kitchen and I think the temp would have crept up while I was preoccupied. 

Furthering my having gone over suspicion is there was a second loaf...dun dun duuuun... which was a bit of a disaster haha. Same issue with sticking to the bowl as last time. This dough spread even further when removed from the banneton (it had extra time in the fridge whilst the first baked) causing the bowl sticking during baking again, but this time it ripped in half when I tried to free it...doh!(or should I say dough!?...although it was mostly baked ?). Interestingly before this dough ripped in two, although it didn't spring amazingly well... it did have a good spread at the score...no picture of that though as it was decapitated before I got the chance haha. I think it is worth mentioning although the dough spread was the main issue with the second loaf, when I divided the dough for preshaping my eyeballing was way off and this loaf was a good bit bigger...I think my bowl would not have been big enough for it and it would have stuck anyway...I took the gamble and it did not pay off haha. I will have my Dutch oven by the next loaf...yay! This recipe I am still getting used to and the loaves are slightly bigger than ones I had made previously with another recipe. I think the bowl is no longer a workable solution. The Dutch oven should help! Although I still have issues to overcome...

I think my plan for my next bake is to take my bulk ferment back a little more again, continue to work on my shaping and see how I go from there. Any advice or observations greatly recieved. I've only made this recipe three times now so I want to stick with it a bit longer until I get something I'm happy with.

The dough at the end of Bulk 

Baked loaf

 

Crumb 

 

calneto's picture
calneto

Just finished my 87th loaf today. It bulked for 5h14 at 25C. Your dought still looks underfermented in my opinion. Why don't you try bulking for 5h, 5h30? It won't ruin your bread, that's for sure. I think you might get a better crumb. 

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you. it is definitely worth a go! I wonder if I should split the dough after mixing and let them go for different times and see the difference in results...that could be fun!

With regards to spreading when it comes out of the banneton, how much would you see as normal...and when spreading seems too much what is the likely culprit? I would guess not enough strength or poor shaping? I really felt I got this one developed and shaped well...but perhaps not! 

calneto's picture
calneto

You can do this experiment, if you feel like it. I'd then suggest you bulk one for 4h, as you have been doing and the other for, say 5h30, or even 6h. 

I would extend the time between folds. At least for me this worked better. I usually wait anywhere between 40' and 1h.

Here are all the details I have from the loaf in the picture:

Started autolyse at 10:28 @ 26,5C

Added levain at 14:40 @ 25,3C

Added salt at 15:21 @ 26,6C

 

Folds, Lamination and Coil Folds:

 

F1:  15:56 @ 25,6C

L2:  17:07 @ 25,5C

C3:  17:57 @ 25,4C

C4:  19:07 @ 25,0C

C5:  19:55 @ 24,7C

 

Put into banneton at 21:13 @ 26,1C

 

Baked the morning after, at 11:00 @ 233C

25' with lid + 20' without  & 30' with oven off, just sitting there.

 

So, summing it all up:

  • 4h12 autolyse
  • 6h33 bulk with a total of 5 folds
  • 13h47 proofing in the fridge
Emma268's picture
Emma268

Excellent! Thank you for sharing this I think I will try and replicate this on one of my next loaves and I'll do less on the other. I'll post my results! 

Can I ask,  how much starter are you using? And also, do you do your folds outwith the bowl I assume? I only recently seen the lamination technique...or at least I think I did...where it is all stretched out by hand on the work top quite thin and folded over? I also only recently seen the coil fold. I have currently been doing stretch and folds in the bowl where I scoop my hand under the dough and stretch it as far as it allows and then fold. I continue to do this round the bowl, about 5 times. I think it could be worth trying the different folding technique to see how it changes my results...at least on one of them! 

Thank you for your help, it's great to chat through things. My family are not as enthused as I am about the making the bread haha.

calneto's picture
calneto

I use (filtered) tap water. Never bothered to measure the temperature, since it is the same as room temperature here in Rio.

I don't like to do laminations, mostly because I have very limited counter space, so today's loaf I did differently, replacing the lamination by a 'out of the box' fold. So, I performed two folds in which I take the dough out of the box, put it on the bench and then perform an envelope fold (I think this is what you also do, maybe in the box). After that, the dough did not leave the box, where I performed coil folds. I did not pre-shape: immediately after my last coil fold, I put it on the bench, shaped it and put it on the banneton.

This time around I video-documented the steps. Unfortunately the scoring went south and the loaf ended up not so good looking. In about 1h30 I'll cut it open. Fingers crossed (it is an 80% batard)!

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Ah  ok I see you do it inside the bowl too! Thank you for sharing. I hope you will be happy with your bread!

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Also are you paying close attention to the water temp you add? This isn't something I've paid close attention to and I wonder if I should. Sometimes I have used from the tap and others lukewarm or room temp

BakersRoom's picture
BakersRoom

I'm seeing 2 problems here:

The pic of your dough at the end of bulk tells the tale.  You said this is the same recipe, so its a 75% hydration?  It should be a little more able to stand up and be a ball at the end of a 4 hour bulk.  I'm betting that you're not getting enough gluten development.  That's why the dough keeps sticking to the banneton for you.  It hasn't developed that tight layer that acts like a non-stick skin.  

Try fractional hydration.  Autolyse with all but 20g of the water in the recipe.  Then mix 10g in with the starter, and 10g in with the salt.  This really helps gluten development a lot. 

The second problem is the overferment.  Try cutting back to 3 hours, based on your pic.  You don't need to see big bubbles in the dough.  

Good luck!

Emma268's picture
Emma268

I had wondered if I was developing the gluten properly, yes 75% hydration as before so will try adding the water incrementally as suggested!

On my next bake I am planning to split the dough and do one for shorter than I did this time and one for longer. It will hopefully help me understand a bit more...at least hopefully haha. Will update my results  and thanks for the suggestions!

 

calneto's picture
calneto

You asked about how much levain I use. I use 20% in baker's percentage terms: 400g of flour and 80g levain. 

calneto's picture
calneto

Hi,

so, I cut loaf #87 open.

Comparing with loaf #84, the one pictured above, the alveoli are much smaller. 

They both bulked at the same 25C and had similar recipes (both with 20% levain and same percentage of white flour).

The main difference is that today's loaf bulked for 5h14, while the previous one for 6h30. I also performed two sets of Rubaud kneading: one with the levain and another one 35' later, when I added the salt. But it had one fewer fold than the previous loaf: 4 against 5. I replaced the lamination with a 'out of the box' fold, but I doubt that this made much difference. After the fourth fold, I decided to shape the loaf, since it had risen too much. What happened is that there was maybe too much time between folds. Next time I'll try to stick to the timeline of loaf #84. 

But here is a picture, so that you can compare the difference between my 6h30 bulk loaf and my 5h14 one:

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Thank you for sharing this! It's all extremely helpful. So do you think that the holes are smaller because of less bulk time?

Starting some dough today and going ahead with my plan to experiment a bit. I am planning to bulk one shorter and the other longer than before,p both in the fridge overnight. Also using the fractional hydration too and going to really pay attention to gluten development. Next time I will experiment with a same day bake with one too. Also have my Dutch oven now so will be baking using this tomorrow which I am probably more excited about than I should be haha.

Emma268's picture
Emma268

I have just read another post on which some hinted that dividing dough before bulk fermentation may not be a great idea. 

My question is, am I able to experiment by dividing my dough before bulk instead of after or would I really need to make another batch of dough and do it that way? Hope I'm making sense 

calneto's picture
calneto

The only thing I can think of that would go against dividing your dough early is that, at least if you perform folds, there is still mixing going on during bulk. That means that at the end of the folds, the dough might be more homogeneously distributed. So, no spots with more whole wheat flour than others, or more hydrated than others. But as long as you mix well the water and flours beforehand, I don't see why it would matter. 

Emma268's picture
Emma268

I opted not to divide before bulk in the end I started to think I may just overcomplicate things for myself and end up making more mistakes. What I done instead was added time on to the second rise by leaving it out an extra 2 and a half hours in the banneton.

This bake I think has went better. I done fractional  hydration as mentioned and a bulk fermentation    of 3 hours (things were quite bubbly at this point) at 25-26 celcius, 4 stretch and folds  , over first 2hours pre shaped loosely and bench rested for 20 minutes. Final shape done as gently as I could with my hands only. I was probably more gentle with loaf one than two. I then shaped loaf one and put it into the fridge straight away (for around 18hrs), and left loaf 2 an extra 2  hours at 25 degrees for one hour and 21 degrees for the second (I had to use my oven which I'd been using to prove ?)  and then refrigerated (16hrs). 

No issues for either coming out of the banneton as I used far far too much flour haha.  No issues with over spreading with either loaf. I was able to get the dough baked quicker than my previous set up which I think helped this. The Dutch oven very much helped too...thanks for all of the tips getting the dough in it made doing this for the first time really simple! I forgot to push the paper away with the second one so there is a little mark here and there.  I think I should have let it bake a little longer for better crust colour so this is a lesson learned for next time. 

I only have a crumbshot of loaf one at present as the second one is for my Dad so I'll update with this once he has it!

As ever any observations and tips most welcome.!All in all I'm happier with this so far. It looks a better shape and the crumb looks more even on the one I have seen. It at least does not have a very dense patch in the middle. Very Interested how the one with the much longer warmer second rise will look inside! It will be an agonising wait haha.I looks a little flatter than the first on the  outside but nothing major.

Loaf one

Loaf one inside

Loaf 2 outside

Dave Cee's picture
Dave Cee

Emma, do you think the greater heat transfer from the bottom of the heavy cast iron DU might have contributed to the improved distribution of the large holes in the crumb structure and oven spring? Nice loaf!

Best wishes. Dave

Emma268's picture
Emma268

I think you're right that definitely could be the case but I don't know enough to say for sure! I had thought the same. My  oven is not great so I think this helped a lot with getting the right heat. It helped in lots of ways I think, the heat, the steam and it helped speed up getting dough from fridge to score to bake. The method i was using before was a bit clumsy and contributed problems. I'm definitely a fan! 

Emma268's picture
Emma268

Loaf 2 that was bulk fermented three hours and then left out shaped for 2.5 hours before refrigerating for 16 hours. My Dad kindly let me cut it in half before taking away ?