The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Is this fool's crumb...?

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Is this fool's crumb...?

Hello bakers

This is my first loaf with my new (about 10 days old) starter). I have a ton of questions about it. 

1. The crumb was super open, and it all tasted good, but it had a slightly wet, tacky feel. Not dense at all though. Is this fool's crumb? Underproofed? 

2. Am I correct in my understanding that this was an 80% hydration dough, if made as follows:

 

900g flour + 700 g warm water. 20 minute autolyse. 

Mixed in 200g starter and worked in 20 g salt

My starter was cultivated at 1:3:3 starter:water:flour. So my thinking is it was roughly 100g flour and 100g water, thus taking the dough percentages to flour 1 kg / 100%, water 800g / 80% , salt 0.02% and starter 20%. (is my reasoning correct?)

I did frequent stretch-and-folds through the morning (at roughly 30-40 min intervals), and then left it for longer in the afternoon.

3. I was a bit in love with the billowing, airy dough, and great windowpane developed from stretch and folding and time on countertop. But by the afternoon I was quite nervous to overproof it. I am suspecting my error was that I underproofed after shaping, but I was also scared it wouldn't hold any shape - as it seemed more like a ciabatta dough. 

Any suggestions/comments/advice please?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Wow!

You did good, and it sounds perfect from the way you describe the crumb.  

Dont forget to take a bittom shot of the loaf.  Congratulations! 

And yes, it is 80% hydration if the starter is 100% hydration.  Beautiful.  

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

I'm agree with Mini. Excellent.

The only advice I can give is that you have a typo in your post. That should be 2% salt.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and nice Ciabatta!!!! Looks like you've got a good starter there.... Kat

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Ah, thank you everyone. I was super pleased with how painless the starter cultivating process was. (And now I'm so excited to try my next batch. But why would the crumb inside be slightly wet/tacky? I would expect that to be coupled with a denseness (signalling underproofing), but it wasn't dense - just a bit damp. 

WatertownNewbie's picture
WatertownNewbie

First, I agree with the above comments.  As for wet/tacky ... you don't mention the baking temperature or length of the bake.  You probably could have gone a tad longer (with a ciabatta I have found that two or three extra minutes can make a big difference).  Also, this type of bread is great for soaking up oil, and that means if your kitchen is humid or you bake on a really humid day, then the bread can absorb a bit of moisture from the air in the room -- perhaps just enough so that in comparison with other breads this one seems wet or tacky.

How did you shape the bread? The one other thing I noticed is that the loaf might have lacked some surface tension (hard to tell from the camera angle).

This must have been a nice tasting bread.  Hope you enjoyed it.

Filomatic's picture
Filomatic

I agree with all this, plus SD is stickier in general.  Add high-ish hydration and you get a wetter crumb.

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Ah, yes - I failed to mention I'm in Mauritius. Humidity levels here are generally between 80% and 100, and it's super warm all year round. Totally agree on the extra few minutes needed in the oven.

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Great looking crumb.  People would be jealous and envious to see if your first attempt turned out so well, so congrats.  Fermentation looks very sufficient, so it's definitely not underproofed.  Doesn't look overproofed either, so as others have pointed out, maybe it's your shaping that probably needs refinement.  Without sufficient tension, you won't be able to achieve good oven spring, and your crust could turn out a saggy.

And yes, sourdough tends to have more of that gelatonous quality, and even custardy/wet if made with higher hydration such as 80%. 

To be clear, were you indeed aiming for a ciabatta loaf?

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Maybe I should clarify that I meant my first loaf with this starter, not my first bread or even sourdough bread ever :-) So was I indeed aiming for a ciabatta? TBH, I was really just experimenting to see what would happen if I mixed an 80% hydration dough using SD instead of commercial yeast.I was aiming only for a fully baked open crumb loaf  - though when I saw the wetness of the dough I realised it had to be a ciabatta, as it wouldn't really take a shape.

I just haven't used sourdough for about the last three years, and also had no idea how a starter would behave here in the tropics (Mauritius) - or that I even remembered what to do with it! Really happy with the results so far. 

My usual (non-SD) bread is 1 kg flour, 700 -800g water, 10g instant yeast and 20g salt, which I do on a stretch and fold (four hourly intervals, followed by shape, final proof, slash, bake). I was astonished at how wet this SD dough was compared to my usual non-SD bread, which easily takes shaping into a boule or batard or anything else.

But today's bake I'm using a 66% hydration dough and again am amazed at the wet feel of the dough. I'm thinking this is because of the autolyse (20-30 mins with warm water) - a technique I've only just learned (thanks to Trevor J Wilson's awesome ebook, can't recommend it highly enough.) Would an autolyse significantly increase the wet feel of the dough? I always thought of a 66% hydration loaf as stiff!! 

Thanks so much for all the feedback, guys. I can feel this sourdough thing bites like a bug...

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

I'm living in HK, where it's also hot and humid, so yes, I understand the challenges!  Yes, Trevor J Wilson's book is fantastic, and I've learned so much from it.  I may have to revisit it, but I don't recall him emphasizing the use of warm water?  In either case, I definitely wouldn't use warm water for the the type of climate we live in, especially when using 80% hydration.  That would just be driving enzymatic activity out the roof.  I use cold water straight out of the fridge, and I do an extented autolyze for at least 2 hours, sometimes 4.  If it's going to be 4 hours, I even put it in my wine fridge at 18C.

I think a 20-30 min autolyze is too short, and won't give the flour enough time to a) absorb the moisture, and b) develop the necessary amount of gluten to yield a strong dough, although Trevor would tell you that gluten doesn't necessarily have to be fully developed at the autolyze or mixing stage.   

If anything, I would meaningfully extend your autolyze, and use room temp or cooler water.  I'm pretty sure that will make your dough feel less wet.  Let me know!

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Thanks HKB! I will definitely experiment with the autolyse and keep you posted! (TJW's book, if I read it correctly said a 20 min autolyse with warm water could have pretty much as good results as a longer autolyse with cold... so I was happy to give that a try.) Watch this space for more on today's 66% hydration bake :-)

 

HKbreadwinner's picture
HKbreadwinner

Happy baking!

BobBoule's picture
BobBoule

Having a slightly wet, tacky feel could simply be that the bake needs to ru a little longer (the center should be somewhere between 200º F and 211º F) or that the loaf need to stand and rest after baking. I have run into this often and I now will not slice into a loaf for anywhere from 2 hours to an overnight rest, the difference is amazing the wet, gummy interior becomes perfectly dry and pillowy).

Keep up the good work, I would love to taste your bread.

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

I left the next batch in much longer, and the inside crumb wasn't gummy at all, and it was much easier to slice (though obviously also a lower hydration bread.)

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

OK, I'm pretty happy with how the 66% hydration batch turned out too, although I think I got quite close to overproofing these. Is it possible for white sourdough to overproof after about 5 hours bulk fermentation, then only about 2-3 hours after the first shaping? I prerounded, and when I came back to check on them after an hour or so, they looked so proofy that I rushed a bit to shape and bake. (HKBreadwinner and anyone else in hot, humid climes... is this a climate thing? Much shorter proofing than advised in the recipe guidelines?)

 

Bottom shot of the first one out the oven:

 

Thanks for all the help and encouragement, people :-) Having so much fun getting back to sourdough!

Cheers

Lisa

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Hi Lisa. I looked at your formula. NOTE - these comments deal with your bread pictured in your first post. If you take into account the starter, your hydration was 82%. That is very wet for white flour. You would expect an extremely slack dough.

You mention the crumb was a little wet. I wonder if it was baked long enough to evaporate enough of the water in the dough. Just a thought... If this is the case, I think it is the only thing you missed on the top bake.

I am not a crumb specialist, but I don’t consider this “fool’s crumb”. Trevor might disagree. The crumb looks a little tight in a very small area on the bottom right (where the loaf bends upwards), but that may due to shaping or handling. IMO, the crumb is very nice and I’d be proud to bake it.

Without seeing more images of your bread, I would guess that it was well proofed.

Dan

 

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Thank you for that observation, Dan. Much appreciate the attention to detail - I'll have to go back and puzzle over the maths. I was in two minds about the ciabatta batch... I was certainly happy with it as a first attempt, but the dough was a tad too slack (IMO) and I think I didn't leave it in the oven quite long enough. It's long gone now though :-) trying out some sourdough hamburger buns for a barbecue later... I have no idea how my dough is going to behave with a bunch of eggs and butter and milk in it. Flying by the seat of my pants here ;-)

kendalm's picture
kendalm

it's beautiful ! What surface are you baking on ? Looks like it could be a bit hotter - that might produce more open crumb at the base. The loaf looks a little pale but otherwise real pretty !

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

“Loaf looks a little pale”. That statement made me think of a question. Why does Ciabatta bread almost always bake a pale color? Is it the hydration?

Dan

alfanso's picture
alfanso

"Why does Ciabatta bread almost always bake a pale color?"

Stay tuna-ed Dan.  My next blog post will parry that thought.  But here are two for starters.

 

Here are some images of dark crust ciabatta from some well respected bakers:

Maurizio - The Perfect Loaf

 

Ciril Hitz

 

Susan - Wild Yeast

 

Steve B - Breadcetera

 

Scott MeGee - The Artisan Crust

Our own David Snyder

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

That's an unusually dark ciabatta, alfanso :-)

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Just straight onto the oven tray, preheated in the oven... I set it to its max setting, which I think is around 250˚C if I'm lucky. (Rental house, generic oven, so old the settings have worn off the dials!)

littlelisa's picture
littlelisa

Just straight onto the oven tray, preheated in the oven... I set it to its max setting, which I think is around 250˚C if I'm lucky. (Rental house, generic oven, so old the settings have worn off the dials!)