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Problem with sourdough pancakes + crumpets

Ewan's picture
Ewan

Problem with sourdough pancakes + crumpets

Hi, first post ---

I'm a reasonably experienced s/d bread baker --- have been baking loaves regularly for about six years.  I maintain my starter pretty well, and have a good idea of its rhythm and quirks.  It's been a long time since I had any problems making bread with it, but in the last month or two I've been using it to make pancakes and crumpets, which has gone ... quite poorly.  

The problem is the same with both pancakes and crumpets: the interior does not properly set, and instead maintains a strange, mushy, 'claggy' quality, where the crumb does not properly form.  It is not an issue of undercooking.  It makes the food quite unappealing --- has a not-great mouthfeel.

I cannot find any reference to this specific issue anywhere.  My best theory is that I am using the leaven either too early or too late in its cycle.  But perhaps it is something else?

Has anybody encountered this problem? --- or, even better, solved it?

 

The recipes I've been using are here:

Pancakes recipe: https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/classic-sourdough-waffles-or-pancakes-recipe

Crumpet recipe: https://www.2hungrybakers.com/blog-1/2017/1/15/sourdough-crumpets

 

Many thanks for any ideas.

Cheers, 

Ewan

kendalm's picture
kendalm

I grew up eating crumpets just about every Saturday and am real particular - ie - they are really good when they are nice and thick - at least 1/2 inch high. As such have made them on occasion. It's been a while but to memory, the baking soda is key and particularly making sure the batter is still bubbling when they hit the griddle. the bubbles should rise up and pop out of the top thereby creating that awesome structure on the inside. If that's not happening the batter may be too thick, the bicarb maybe all used up. It makes me wonder if the levain really matters (having never tried a sourdough version)

Ewan's picture
Ewan

Thanks for this.  I've used bicarb in both of the recipes, which does cause the bubbling you mention.  For the crumpets, the bubbles did form on top, creating the familiar terrain of butter-ready holes.  And yet ... still the weird texture inside.  I know what you mean about the levain + what is it really adding if the bicarb is also in the mix? --- perhaps it's intended more for lending that elastic/extensible quality to the crumb, than for rise/lightness as such?

I'm sure there are non-sourdough recipes I can use.  But seems a shame to not use the starter, as I've got it in the kitchen.  Thanks for your thoughts.

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

Bicarb needs an acid as a catalyst normally coming in the form of buttermilk. When using bicarb and sourdough starter the starter is acidic, gives flavour and it's a great way to use up discard. 

Cultures for health has great recipes using sourdough starter and baking soda https://www.culturesforhealth.com/learn/recipe/sourdough-recipes/sourdough-crumpets/

Ewan's picture
Ewan

Interesting, thanks.  Any ideas on the texture problem?

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

When used? Are you building, or is the discard, built to the same requirements of the recipe? 

Ewan's picture
Ewan

Yup, following the recipes pretty closely I think.  Both the pancakes and the crumpets ask for an overnight leaven (the pancakes have an enriched leaven with buttermilk, but same principle), which I make from the starter at the unfed part of its cycle (typically about 18 hours since last feed), leave overnight, then finish the batter with salt, bicarb, and (for the pancakes) eggs and butter.  The leaven, when used in the morning, has been at about, or perhaps just after, the peak of activity and is just about in the falling phase.

The mushy texture problem is just weird, and is strikingly similar between the two recipes.  Who knows.  Not me anyway.  

Abe's picture
Abe (not verified)

One last question... Does the batter show signs of bubbling when being mixed? If not then one of two things...

1: check the baking soda is good. Could very well have run out of juice. 

2: you might need to leave the mix to stand for a bit until it bubbles. 

Ewan's picture
Ewan

1 the baking soda is ok; 2 yes, true, though I have done so I think.  It's not really a question of effervescence or of lift --- it's not that the pancakes / crumpets are too dense, just that there is a weird stickiness to it.  Thanks for your thoughts though. 

Jay's picture
Jay

I"ve made sourdough pancakes a few times and they've always turned out great, but I've only used discard as a flavor enhancer, not as a rising agent, which  might make a difference.  This is the recipe I've had good results with: https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/01/bread-baking-sourdough-waffles-recipe.html#comments-22422

Ewan's picture
Ewan

Thanks for this -- will give it a try.  Also, the recipe you give needs less advance planning ... ta. 

Jay's picture
Jay

You're welcome. I hope it works well for you, we've enjoyed it a lot the times I've used it. 

Redjacketswamp's picture
Redjacketswamp

Ewan

I suspect your starter is not vigorous enough.  

Bread has lots of wiggle room but great crumpets require the starter to be in great condone.

We make crumpets that are only cooked on one side which must be then re-toasted ibefore eating.  BEST CRUMPETS EVER.   But this also means we are very aware of when the starter was not up to par in our early days.

We found that using a Griswold square egg skillet does wonders for the cooking. (I think it is the sides)

Also for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP4peyGcLPY

 

 

Ewan's picture
Ewan

Hmm, don't know about that.  I'm struggling a bit with the responses to be honest.  Question was specifically about a particular texture issue, which I was hoping somebody would recognise and perhaps help to solve.  Why would this texture issue relate to the starter's level of activity?  The rise is good.  That's not the problem.  

Redjacketswamp's picture
Redjacketswamp

Ewan

 

Apologies, I thought I had stated we used to have that texture issues when our starter was less vigorous.  

 

 

 

sourtrout's picture
sourtrout

Do you add fresh flour to the recipe when you finally get around to making it--as in, not the flour that is in the fed starter?

 

I think you should add fresh flour if you're not, as the flour in the sourdough will not have the structure-giving properties since it has been worked over by the yeast. 

My thinking is that if you use the fresh flour along with the starter, the fresh flour should 'set' and firm up like when one makes pancakes from scratch with no sourdough.

Redjacketswamp's picture
Redjacketswamp

sourtrout

 

Interesting how its different for everyone.  

A couple of quick points on our crumpets: 

  • The local crumpet we grew up with are very soft.   Its only structure is the thin cell walls of the all-over vertical bubble tunnels.  For us anything that has too much crumb is in the realm of english muffins...the quintessential crumpet experience here is warm soft buttery goodness...
  • Our starter is on a 4hr feeding regime as we run it for panettone. 
  • Crumpets are only ever eaten after re-toasting...i.e. they must be double cooked.

Hence, for our crumpets we are after an all over bubble column that has very thin walls between the bubble tubes.  It is the thinness of these walls that allows for them to cook and remove any glueyness.   This means we need the starter to be very vigorous.   Hence when our starter was less vigorous there was insufficient bubbles....those were just large gluey pancakes.  Edible but not crumpets.  

When we added new flower we would get too much crumb.  This actually inhibited the bubbles rising all the way to the surface and popping.  I.e. it was trying to make a bread like structure not the vertical bubbles of crumpets.  These were just wrong...its like people who make scones with yeast.

We have found that for us the following gives the best results.

  • We use  Caputo pizza flour...this has just the right flavour and goes oh sooooo nice when toasted
  • We use Griswold square egg skillets for cooking crumpets.  Their side walls inject heat and seem to force more bubbles and make them more vertical and tightly packed (p.s. one of the greatest cooking pans ever)

In relation to your comment about the yeast affecting the flour,  I suspect our 4h feeding mitigates how far the flour in the starter is affected.  Would be interested in your thoughts.

 

Ewan's picture
Ewan

First comment was for sourtrout but appeared as reply to redjacket ... getting used to the threading.  Redjacket -- that's interesting on the double cooking (which I haven't tried), and also the reasoning for working from a very vigorous starter (and btw "gluey" as a description sounds similar to the problem I've been having).  Good ideas.  I'm going to try some variations --- if any are successful, I'll report back.  

Ewan's picture
Ewan

Interesting thought.  Recipes for sourdough crumpets seem to be on a continuum on this issue: from overnight ferment of the batter with no new flour in the morning, to adding more flour just before cooking.  Most are of the former type and this is how I've been doing it.  Some (eg the book by Ed and Jean Wood) recommend a middle route -- adding more flour in the morning, but then allowing a further hour before cooking.  

I'll try a recipe with fresh flour.  Definitely worth a try.  Though if it works I'm still perplexed ... most recipes seem to work from a starter some 8ish hours after feeding, with a bit of salt / sugar / bicarb / possibly eggs just before cooking (eg https://www.hobbshousebakery.co.uk/blogs/recipes/140061511-sourdough-crumpet or https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-crumpets-recipe in addition to the one I posted earlier).  But if I can just get to a good recipe, it's all good.  

HoltySK's picture
HoltySK

Hi Ewan, 

I know this is from a while ago, but did you manage to solve this? I have the exact same issue. It's especially frustrating as when I've made normal, yeasted crumpets in the past they've come out perfectly!

Seb

Ewan's picture
Ewan

No, I gave up! Strange, isn’t it. If you crack it, let me know... good luck!

Khaosky's picture
Khaosky

I just read this whole thread getting as frustrated as you must have been when there was not really a response to the glueyness, then to get to the bottom and find nobody ever solved it!!!!

I have no job and no possibility my industry will start shooting this year (Film). I have no income and nowhere to go. 

I WILL SOLVE THIS.

Sabina's picture
Sabina

So I know this was asked two years ago, but I'm suffering from the same problem myself: a gluey, uncooked-seeming texture in the middle of pancakes, and I'm having trouble finding anyone else with this problem online. It's very noticeable with the King Arthur sourdough recipe, but I've had this problem with other pancakes, too. I know pan temperature can be a culprit with the pancake overcooking on the outside and not cooking on the inside, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. It doesn't matter how long they are cooked or at what temperature, the centre never firms up properly. The rise is never a problem.

My current theory is that this happens when the pancake batter is too acidic. The King Arthur recipe has many things in it which are contributing to an acidic batter: 1. Buttermilk 2. Sourdough starter 3. The starter is unfed and is therefore even more acidic 4. The batter is left out to ferment overnight, where the bacteria in the starter eat up the flour and spit out even more acid. 4. Only 1 tsp of baking soda to neutralize all that acid. 

Acid prevents some types of cooking. For sure it stops things from browning, and it can prevent vegetables from getting soft. I really suspect it is preventing the batter from firming up here, too. I know there are lots of quickbread recipes with sourdough that call for leaving the batter out overnight before adding the baking powder/soda and baking, but I have my doubts as to that being a good idea. I don't really understand what's going on, but  maybe there's too much gluten development, and not enough starch left after the fermenting. Here's a look at what extra acid can do to baked goods:  https://thecakeblog.com/2017/06/acidity-in-cake.html . The author of that never has the more extreme gluiness problem that I get with sourdough pancakes, but I think that's because she's only using vinegar, whereas the fermentation period with the sourdough causes even more changes to the flour.

For non-sourdough pancakes, I've always had more trouble when there's acidic ingredients, like banana, applesauce, and yogurt in the batter. Good recipes with these ingredients always call for extra baking soda, which would help neutralize these ingredients' acidity.

Once when making the King Arthur sourdough pancakes I fried up a few before adding any baking soda, to see if they would rise anyway. They rose beautifully. I had never seen a pancake get so high and fluffy. But it wouldn't firm up at all after rising. It didn't even get to the gluey stage - it was even more uncooked-seeming than that, and it was inedibly sour. After adding the baking soda, the pancakes cooked to their normal gluey selves.

There is a problem with my theory. The King Arthur sourdough pancakes recipe has hundreds of good reviews. No one complains about their pancakes' being gluey. However, the acidity level of the batter will depend on individual starters, at what stage in feeding the starter is used, and on the precise length of time that the batter is left out and at what temperature it's left. 

The last time I made sourdough pancakes, I didn't have the gluey problem at all, but I used this recipe: https://www.smartnutrition.ca/recipes/sourdough-pancakes/ . Its ratios are very similar to the King Arthur one, but it does a lot to reduce the acid: 1. No overnight ferment 2. Plain milk instead of buttermilk 3. Fed starter instead of discard. It also calls for baking powder instead of baking soda, and more of it. Honestly I'm not sure what to make of this part of the recipe, but I'm sure it's important. On the one hand, the baking powder contains acid, so although there's a lot of it, it's presumably doing little to offset the acidity of the sourdough. But on the other hand, the powder also contains some starch, which might help the structure of the batter.

When I made the recipe I still used discard starter, but I tried to make up for that added acidity by replacing 1 tsp of baking powder with 1 tsp of baking soda. It worked well. They are not my favourite pancakes because I don't actually like pancakes to be that poofed up and fluffy, but the batter did firm up after rising and did not have any gluiness.

 I also sometimes make the King Arthur sourdough crumpets: https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-crumpets-recipe . That recipe doesn't have an overnight ferment, but I find I need to let the batter sit for about an hour after adding the baking soda before cooking it. If I don't, the crumpets won't firm up inside and they have a strong baking soda taste to them. I assume that letting the baking soda sit in the batter for a while gives it time to react with the acid, neutralizing it and allowing the batter to set up. The bubbles appear and the batter rises either way, but it won't  firm up inside if I don't let it sit with the baking soda first. This actually confuses me because I thought it was the reaction of the baking soda with the acid that caused the bubbles and rising. Waiting for that reaction to be complete seems like it should prevent the rise and bubbles, but that is not the case. My pancake batter also rose without any baking soda at all. I guess it's the sourdough itself which is causing the rise, but it seems that most sourdough quick bread recipes also call for other leaveners, so I'm not sure what's going on.

Some commenters on that crumpet recipe also say the recipe works better if they let the batter sit for a while, but the recipe bills itself as being quick, and lots of commenters also say it's quick. I can only guess then that for the rest of us the "problem" is somehow with our starter, since there's basically nothing else in the recipe.

 I don't know how to "fix" a starter to make better quick breads, but my starter makes regular bread just fine, so I don't want to anyway.

 

MSUjester's picture
MSUjester

I know it’s nearly two years since the original post, but only a few months after the most recent!  I have this exact same problem. While it’s frustrating, at least I’m not the only one. Did anyone ever solve this?  I’m going to try the link for the pancakes on smartnutrition.ca that one poster said cake out better. Any solutions would be very much appreciated. 

Sabina's picture
Sabina

I tried the King Arthur sourdough pancakes again today. They were awful. They just wouldn't cook. After the first few pancakes I added some extra baking soda and some baking powder to the rest of the batter and they were much better (but still gluey). (I know I am adding leaveners, but the rising is not the problem.) I am a glutton for punishment because I keep trying to make that recipe work because it has so many good reviews. I love the idea of leaving pancake batter out to rise overnight and then cooking the pancakes in the morning, but I think it is hopeless. How did the Smart Nutrition pancakes work out for you? It's been a while since I made them but they've always been decent.

MSUjester's picture
MSUjester

I’ve saved the recipe, but haven’t actually tried them yet. I’ve been making crackers with my discard lately. They’re pretty good, although I can’t seem to get them quite thin enough. Even at a relatively thin texture they’re pretty hard. If i could get them super thin i think they’d be great. 

doughooker's picture
doughooker

I am making yeasted, not sourdough, crumpets and am having the same problem with undercooked insides. High heat, low heat, it doesn't seem to matter. I've even let them cook for as long as 15 minutes. The insides are invariably undercooked and squishy, about the consistency of  mashed potatoes. The taste of this raw dough/batter is most unappetizing; they're not the divine taste treat people rave about.

I've watched many videos on YouTube which make crumpets seem almost effortless. It's not a complicated recipe. I get the requisite holes on top and the tops are firm to the touch.

Sabina's picture
Sabina

Okay so I am still having gluiness problems, but they are not as bad as they used to be. Depending on the recipe, these are things that have helped me:

1) adding extra baking soda to the recipe;

2) reducing the amount of liquid in the recipe;

3) mixing the flour and liquid together and letting it sit for several hours before adding the yeast and other ingredients.

I've never made yeast non-sourdough crumpets, so I can't help at all with that specifically :(

Good luck :)