The Fresh Loaf

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What is this thing I have created?

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

What is this thing I have created?

First post here, have finally given up lurking and perusing the copious amounts of knowledge on these forums because there is only so much science you can internalize and still not have any idea of what is going on with your bread before you throw your hands up in the air in exasperation and scream 'someone help me!' Nonetheless, I would like to thank all the helpful people on this forum for so generously sharing their knowledge here; it is a veritable encyclopaedia! Skip to the last few paragraphs or so if you don't need context, this is going to be a long post..

Have been going at this sourdough thing for about two months now. After making every possible mistake known to man and two bricks optimistically made when my starter started bubbling, I finally figured out how one was meant to cultivate a sourdough starter in winter (spring forgot to come in London) with chlorinated tap water (thanks again London), figured out the basics of pre-fermentation, bulk-fermenting (in winter with a near-unheated apartment), shaping, and proofing (with no banneton) and baking (with no dutch oven) and got something half decent.

My method is adapted from Chad Robertson's Tartine combined with Hugh Fearnely-Whittingstall's article in the Guardian about making sourdough, in that I use those as starting points then figure out what works for me based on the 10000 errors I have made, and the fact that I have next to no temperature-measuring equipment. I get my 100% hydration regular white bread-flour starter (out of the fridge) nice and active, and at some point when it's still growing or just about peaked, I throw a tablespoon of it together with 75g bread flour (I use the "strong white flour" from Tesco) and 75g water, and leave that overnight, or for a couple of hours. In the morning I find it nice and bubbly, at which point I add all the remaining flour (I'm using 554g) and all the water (I started with 330ml but have been working my way up) save for 50ml, which gets mixed with salt. This sits for about an hour or so, before I mix in the salt and work the dough until everything comes together in one cohesive mess - at that point I 'stretch and fold', working my way clockwise, and leave it to sit for half an hour, coming back to stretch and fold it for the next two and a half hours. That then gets pre-shaped (by this point the dough is very manageable), left to sit for 15 minutes, shaped again and thrown back into my mixing bowl, lined with a linen-like cloth dusted quite liberally with cornflour. After about three hours, I preheated the oven, threw my cast iron frying pan (student with no skillet or dutch oven) on the stove to heat it up, threw the bread on the pan, put water in the greasepan under my baking shelf, and hoped for the best.

I wasn't satisfied with the crumb yet (it was dry-ish and I had dropped the hydration to about 60% because following the Tartine Loaf recipe had resulted in the first brick), nor with the fact that I had underdone the bottom by baking in a cast iron pan which I had heated on the stove to save on electricity instead of heating it in the oven, so I baked again, and produced this.

I could clearly see that I had some shaping issues with this loaf, and figured maybe better shaping would distribute the holes in the bread more evenly.. At this point I also figured out, courtesy of crumb bum, that it was possible to bake in a non-preheated oven. I modified his technique based on how I understand my oven to work - I put the bread on a cookie sheet on the bottom shelf of the oven, non-preheated, and turn on the bottom element with a small metal muffin cup of boiling water sitting on the floor of the oven. The bottom element heats the cup, which generates steam, and also heats the bread from the bottom much like what an oven stone would do. This gets my dough rising (after about ten tense minutes wondering if I had failed *yet again*) and actually produced a very satisfactory oven spring!

But still, no dice with evening out the crumb. Here I wondered if the fact that I had slashed one side of the loaf (in a C-shape along the top) created the massive tunnels you see in the loaf..

So I went for a square-score instead, all the while slowly upping the hydration of my dough (I was at about 66% with this one), and changed my shaping technique. All the while the issue of massive holes in my bread alongside a tight crumb was plaguing me, and I was determined to get this right at some point.

I decided that heck it, maybe my previous nightmares with higher hydration (70%) were caused by improper technique when I had just started out instead of the fact that my flour was suspect and could not handle higher hydration, and now I am all ready to handle that higher hydration with my grown-up ways. I also figured that this issue looked like under-proofing to me, so I shot for a longer fermentation time and changed my method drastically. I got my starter active yesterday, and last night, I threw a tablespoon of it together with all the flour and left it to bulk in my 12-15C (though I am estimating here) kitchen overnight for about six to seven hours, figuring that the low temperature would retard the fermentation suitably. The next morning it hadn't even doubled, so I figured I was hardly in danger of over-fermentation. I started stretching and folding with much vigour, but the dough was tacky and stupidly unmanageable, reminiscent of my nascent days with trying to bake sourdough (while following the Tartine recipe with no proper technique). With 65% hydration or so the dough stopped being tacky by the second stretch and fold, but with this batch it never really came together. I gave up after 2 more hours of 'stretch and fold' with no noticeable change to the dough, and since I was passing the windowpane test pretty easily and it had easily been 9 hours by this point, I figured the gluten had developed enough and I could go on to shape it. I dumped it out, and with the help of some flour and a dough scraper cut from a milk carton, I managed to pre-shape it into a boule. I left it to sit for 15 minutes, by which time it had slackened and stuck to the sides of my mixing bowl overturned on it, and with the help of a bit more flour, folded it back into a boule, then tensioned the skin by shaping it much like this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEG1BjWroT0).

I left it to proof for 2 hours in a microwave oven with a cup of boiling water put in at the same time to prevent drying out and raise the temperature above the miserable 12C we were having today, came back and did the finger poke test - it sprung back slightly but the indentation remained, and so I figured hey that should be about right, I'll bake the thing. I dumped it out onto my cookie sheet, and unlike my other loaves, this one collapsed flat on me. I slashed it, saw no bubbles under the skin (there wasn't really even a discernible skin to begin with, had I not dried it out with cornflour), and figured I was going to be eating brick for the next three days (since I'm not one to waste my food), and that I had severely underproofed this,.

Then I threw it in the oven and.. weird lumps and bubbles started appearing all over my bread, like as if there was something alien itching to burst out of there and eat the man with the misfortune to make this. Aside from that there was hardly any 'rise' to speak of, and this was very much the space saucers I had been used to eating in my first few mistaken attempts. I gave up all hope on it, but decided to autopsy it anyway out of morbid curiosity, and found this:

The open crumb I had always been looking for! Albeit in a most ghastly fashion.. Note also that this flying saucer was ridiculously flat, I just slice my bricks at a bias in order to increase surface area so I don't eat biscotti-shaped pieces of bread.

Can anyone tell me what went wrong here, and how I can keep this nice open texture but still have the shape of my lower-hydration loaves? It really doesn't seem to be a gluten-development issue to me, since I gave up stretching and folding and started slapping and folding to kingdom come on this loaf, with no discernible developments..

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

After only 2 months of going it alone, I think you are well on your way to success.Sourdough Dough is not the easiest bread to bake, BUT it is the best tasting.

I’m wondering if the flour you are using may be part of your problem. Also, you picked a very difficult bread for your first bake. Are you open to try a less technical bake?

I’ll ask Kat to take a look. She may be able to suggest a flour for you. I am from the the USA and know nothing of your flours.

Dan

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

If it helps the bread flour apparently is 14% protein! I have baked also with Allinson's 11% flour to no great detriment.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

I think that’s some of your problem. 14% is super high.  I’d try using the best 11 - 12% flour I could find. I tried 14%. The crust was leathery and the crumb was shiny and rubbery. 

Dan

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

I thought that higher protein flours are able to absorb moisture better, however? I assumed, if anything, that using 14% would make it easier to push my hydration to 70%..

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Are an issue with the starter or bulk ferment. Either the starter wasn't mature enough or the bulk ferment wasn't done properly.  

Bottom pictures is probably just a shaping issue. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

What about flours choices, Abe. What are your favorite flours?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

and since I'd rather have chewy bread then a failure I normally try and go for higher protein. However I have often used a 12.6% protein flour with very good results and isn't too strong. Something like Dove's Farm strong bread flour which is a nice level of protein and good quality flour. I used to think the stronger the flour the better but the more I bake the better I do with the "weaker" flour" as long as it's not too weak of course. So even 11-12% is do-able as long as it's handled in the best way for that flour. When following a recipe it's always good to keep 5-10% water back and slowly add it in after the autolyse with the salt and starter if the dough needs it.

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Thanks for the suggestion! Is there any difference to using a longer bulk as opposed to a longer proof? Also, with regards to shaping, I tensioned this loaf a lot more than I usually do on my other loaves, but the gluten never really seemed to form a skin properly? You can see in the bottom loaf how the slashing did next to nothing to actually "open" up the crust.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I agree with Lechem and the top pictures have an issue around underfermentation. Trevor Wilson describes this in his E-book 'Open Crumb Mastery' as a 'fool's crumb' as people tend to believe they achieved open crumb but the denser crumb around big holes normally is a sign of underfermentation - either with your starter or during bulk fermentation. I have to admit I have not been so patient to read through all your details and please forgive me but did you have at the end of bulk and shaping a 'airy', 'bubbly' looking boule or bartard...that's what you need to look for...

With regards to flour I came to the conclusion to watch all especially American formulas with regards to water and to introduce water gradually as Lechem aka Abe also recommended.

I personally really like the  Marriages Strong White Bread and know that it is used by many professional Sourdough bakers in the UK ....I experimented with other's such as Dove's Farm strong which is also great but I prefer the results I get with the Marriages flour and the mill is in Essex nearby which I also think is nice....

I soooo strongly agree with Abe and keep water back....I had problems recently and actually started going back using a 65% Stiff dough recipe from Trevor Wilson

http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-get-open-crumb-from-stiff-dough-video/

make sure NOT to do his pre-mix with salt over night as this totally degrades the UK flour in my experience...) but just do a normal 1 hour autolyse with salt and flour.....

You still get a nice crumb and you can see my example in my blog, if you are curious...I am now testing and gradually up the water and just today finished a 71 % loaf based on the formula...to find the sweet spot for my handling skills and the amount of water..

Both, Trevor and Vanessa Kimbell describe this holding water back in their books going back to the French word 'bassinage'....so I normally use 80%ish of water in mix, then add more with salt (using Rubaud method of mixing and developing gluten early and this is possible even on a 65% hydration dough with UK flour) and then leave more water e.g. up to 15g in the bulk container. The ideas is NOT to flood the flour/dough and to let the dough absorb each time the water rather than all at once...and flood the dough resulting in a flat loaf.

I hope this helps and happy baking.... Kat

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Hi Kat, thank you so much for your detailed reply! I will definitely make it a point to ferment longer this time.. am glad at least that I had figured out the problem with my first few loaves (though apparently upping the hydration at the same time was a big mistake!).. I haven't usually got an airy boule, but sometimes when I shape I do get large-ish bubbles appearing under the skin of the boules?

What differentiates different flours beyond protein content, and why would flour in the UK be so different from American flour?

Thank you also for the recommendation of Trevor's recipe, I currently have that sitting in a bowl bulk fermenting and hopefully things go alright even though I may have to throw in an overnight rest in the fridge after bulk fermentation on account of only having started in the evening today.. Which aspect of handling should I watch out for if I eventually try working with 70% hydration rather than 65%?

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

to my blog including a picture of what I mean with 'airiness'...from pre-shape and final shape...note that I am not the greatest shaper and just example......all I mean with 'airiness' is that  you have those small pockets of air underneath the skin of dough indicating good fermentation....and the dough feels 'light'....

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/56080/trevor-wilsons-stiff-dough-65-formula#comment-406291

 

Have a lot at a new blog today where I upped the hydration to 71% overall in today's loaf....I am not an expert on this but what I do is just to add more water so in baker's percentage 

345g water (and 25g water out of that would be in the leaven)/ 485g flour in total (including 25g flour in leaven)  = 71% hydration 

Dan has an amazing spreadsheet that does the re-calculation for you with exact flour and starter....but I did it this way and might not be 100% perfect, so be aware....

I hope this helps and may not be perfect......, Kat

p.s. Vanessa Kimbell talks about flour difference and enzymes in her book...I think it comes down to a lot more sunshine in the US..:D 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Hi Kat! Have a couple more questions. I've got dough sitting in a bowl for a final proof now, but I am quite worried I've messed it up! I started Trevor's recipe at 6pm yesterday (using 460g bread flour), mixing in the starter at 7pm like you suggested. My starter was 12 hours old when I mixed it in, and had just peaked and started to fall. I think my starter strength should be alright since it floats with no problems. It just takes longer to ferment because it's been pretty cold (~8-15°C) in London of late!

I stretched and folded every hour and a half or so, but was mindful of my underproofing the last time, and by 2am it still didn't feel airy or bubbly so I left it overnight til 8am this morning. It didn't seem to have gotten much better by then either, but I'm not too sure what I was looking for.. I'm suspecting a weak starter but if my starter floats I've always been told that's the test for whether it's usable or not!

Then I turned it out for a pre-shape, and the dough seemed a lot stickier than in Trevor's video, though it was just about shapable with the addition of a bit of flour, and was still vaguely holding its shape after half an hour's rest. I then final-shaped it, all the while with it sticking to my hands and scraper whenever it absorbed the thin layer of flour I added to help shaping. Folded it twice to be sure to form a gluten sheathe, and have thrown it into a bowl for a final proof in my 15° kitchen. I realize it's been close to 16 hours at room temperature by now, but according to a sourdough timetable I've found on this site apparently temperatures of 15° can require up to 24 hours overall for bulk fermentation and proofing, so I figure I'm still not too far off? The dough seems to be slackening a lot akin to my last higher-hydration attempt, though, and I am getting worried.. :S

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

We could arrange a baking session.

Even when it's this cold in London I couldn't leave a dough out all night with a significant amount of starter. I'd have to go really low to do that and I know Trevor's recipes won't be in that percentage range.

Either you are misjudging what the dough should feel or look like in the bulk ferment or there is an issue with the starter.

I'm beginning to think the yeast population in your starter is low.

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

 

and please give me a moment to write a longer post to respond.... Kat

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

I pasted below my process..as on my blog for you yesterday...and then add your process with my questions next and i hope this makes sense?

 

290g water 

436 g strong white 

24g ww

10g salt

50g starter - 12 hours old...

Your starter sounds good - I often use my starter straight after 12 hours when refreshing to avoid wasting flour but you could also build a separate leaven and use it after 4-6 hours... Did you use 100% hydration starter?

-----------------------------

1 Hour AL - 11:30 - 12:30 - water temp. 82F and end dough temp 74F - into proofer at 78F

Did you do an Autolyse just with water and flour only ? How long?

Added Leaven, salt  mini-Rubaud was still possible, rest and 2nd round of Rubaud...

Did you add salt and leaven at the same time? This would have been 7PM your time....right...

I use even with stiffer dough the Rubaud method as described my Trevor to develop gluten right at the beginning of the bulk fermentation although he recommends it for wetter dough...

http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-mix-wet-dough/

13:00 Start Bulk   now this would have been 7PM in your case the moment you add leaven and finish mix...

15:00 1 S & F 74F          now as you can see, I followed Trevor's instructions and only folded this dough every 2 hours as a stiff dough...wetter dough in general need more folds to give the dough structure which is less the case with a stiffer dough and I wanted to maximise 'open' crumb in stiffer dough here so less folds and I also created gluten by using Rubaud at the beginning of the bulk....

17:00 2nd S & F -75F

17:30 dough totally went mad and doubled or more....

17:30 Pre-shape and 15 min rest (only) to avoid over-proofing

You can see that I had a pretty active starter and the dough doubled within 4 1/2 hours or so....however, in your case you had from 7PM till 2AM which is 6 hours....how much had it risen? Did you see any activity in the dough after 6 hours...I put below a picture of what my dough looked like after 4 1/2 hours...and started below the 0.5l line...also you can see the bubbles in the dough and on top...did you get any signs of fermentation like this?

Now, it could have been that your starter was slow because of the low temperatures that you mentioned or you have an issue with your starter...I don't quite know...I did buy in the end a Brod & Taylor proofer in order to manage temps better when proofing and keep my dough at 24C ish...so 15C is very low....

You can manage your target dough temperature using warmer water and aim for ending up with a dough at that temp...

I am now not sure anymore whether you would have overproofed the dough right now as very different from my timetable...

I normally follow the dough (not the clock) during bulk fermentation until it has reached 30-50% look for bubbles and that domed look of the sides of the dough and then pre-shape. If it has risen a lot I give it only 15 min bench rest and after final shaping I put is straight into the fridge to retard at 5C for 12 hours and bake straight from the fridge..

I hope this helped and tricky just with words....don't give up....

In a nutshell:

1. Check that your starter is well and look at it's lifecycle of rise and fall (The Fresh Loaf with Maurizio has a great example of this...)https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/#Feeding_Schedule

2. Treat dough temperature as an 'ingredient'....again Maurizio explains this well....I have a feeling that 15C is quite cold and how could you warm up the kitchen...use the oven with light on for proving?

Ok...I hope this was helpful and we all have been going though this..believe me...... Kat

 

18:00 Final Shaping and retard in fridge at bottom shelf 6C Bake: 6AM 12 hours

 

6:30 Baked – 20min top temp and then 20 min lower temp...

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

I thought there might be an issue with my starter too, but since it was floating I figured perhaps it was just the temperature? In addition to the timetable posted here suggesting 24-hour fermentation times at such temperatures.. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5381/sourdough-rise-time-table

i figured since all my previous loaves had been underproofed, I could leave this for way longer since my starter seems to be slower-acting?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

In the winter it's a good idea to go with a higher percentage of starter than in the summer. By doing this we can eliminate this factor. May I suggest this recipe which you can follow as closely as possible to give us an idea of what's going on. It also takes into account European flours.

http://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/sourdough-pain-naturel/

not.a.crumb.left's picture
not.a.crumb.left

and that's a good recipe.... Kat

p.s. It still might be a good idea to have a very close look at your starter and to get it to know really, really well. When I started the hour to hour photos of Maurizio's blog gave me a good idea to judge at what stage my starter is....just a thought and you might have done this already.....

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

@Kat and Lechem, my main issue with following all these amazing recipes is maintaining temperature in my flat - is there no way to bake with 15C temperatures? Just as an update after baking at 7pm today, this happened..

The crumb was so much better (and this is also so much tastier) than anything I have ever made before, though I made the rookie error of forgetting to flour the bottom of my loaf which promptly stuck fast to the cookie sheet and killed any rise it could have gotten. Does this look like an overproofed loaf, or was my 24 hour-proof at 15C somehow okay, and was this just perhaps a shaping issue? And as regards shaping, I swear I folded till kingdom come then did that round-and-round tensioning which Trevor demonstrates, as much as that was possible with my sticky dough.. what else can I do to stop it from flopping into a pancake after proofing?

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Just to clarify, the process that went into this was -

10g salt, 460g flour, 290g water at 6pm yesterday,

50g 100% hydration starter added at 7pm.

First fold at 830pm, second fold at 10pm, did another at 1130pm, and noticed that the dough still seemed quite lax, so I did a fourth fold at 1am to be sure. At 2am it didn't seem nearly as airy as the picture Kat posted in her post on that other page (or the one here), so I left it out on the counter to rest.

At 8am the today I did a preshape (dumped it out, rolled it up into a boule with a 'bench scraper) and a clockwise turning motion, left it to rest for half an hour.

At 830 I did a final shaping (folded about five points into the centre, decided to do it again for good measure, then did the round-and-round motion as per Trevor's video), and left it to proof on the counter all the way till 6.30pm today, when I came back from school, expecting a massive pillow of air. At this point I came back to find the dough about doubled, and when I did the poke test the indentation I made surprisingly still sprang back slightly, so I dumped it out onto the baking sheet and baked it. Got a bit of a rise, but I'm not sure if it's due to poor shaping or due to the bottom of the loaf sticking to the baking sheet, it has remained about an inch thick..

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

SpamBlah, you said, “At 8am the today I did a preshape (dumped it out, rolled it up into a boule with a 'bench scraper) and a clockwise turning motion, left it to rest for half an hour.

At 830 I did a final shaping (folded about five points into the centre, decided to do it again for good measure, then did the round-and-round motion as per Trevor's video), and left it to proof on the counter all the way till 6.30pm today, when I came back from school, expecting a massive pillow of air. At this point I came back to find the dough about doubled, and when I did the poke test the indentation I made surprisingly still sprang back slightly, so I dumped it out onto the baking sheet and baked it. Got a bit of a rise, but I'm not sure if it's due to poor shaping or due to the bottom of the loaf sticking to the baking sheet, it has remained about an inch thick..”

You preshape @ 8am, shaped @ 8:30am, and the proofed on the counter until 6:30pm? So the final proof was 10.5 hours? Doesn’t anyone think this is a bit much?

i don’t know when to started to mix the dough, but you said @ 8:30pm you did your first S&F. I estimate tomstarted @ around 6:30pm. And the entire fermentation (approximately 24hr) was at room temp or warmer. 

Does anyone think the dough has degraded well beyond use? The starter may or may not be the problem, but the fermention Time seems to be the obvious culprit, IMO.

The entire procedure is not perfectly clear to me, but if I got the timings and temps right this is where inwould concentrate.

Dan

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Something isn't right here. Timing is definitely off. I live in London too and while I agree it's not exactly Miami Beach here the timings seem way off. 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

When you say room temp, my flat genuinely is somewhere around 15C.. Also, what causes dough degradation, besides overproofing? I don't think my loaf was overproofed (though I don't know what overproofed looks like) - the sagging after I dumped it onto my baking tray seemed to be more the problem of not having shaped tight enough (or perhaps proofing in too big a bowl) as opposed to a collapse from degassing..? Also I have read that the symptom of overproofed dough is a tight crumb because the gluten has collapsed, but the gluten strands in this particular loaf seem like exactly what I was looking for..?

Thank you all for being so patient with my queries, I did try my best to look around the forums but what was being described never seemed to correspond to the beasties coming out of my doughs.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And just mixing flour and water the dough will degrade overtime. In fact it starts to degrade when they mix. Autolyse, I'm sure you've heard of it, means self disgust. Good for realeasing enzymes and starting the gluten formation but given time and you'll end up with a pool. 

leslieruf's picture
leslieruf

I recently made a loaf that required bulk ferment at around 80°F (26°C) and i did this by heating a cup of water for a minute I think then popped dough in with the door cracked open with a wooden spoon. the light kept it at 24-26°c the whole day like this. in future I will remove the cup of water but I had to have something to start with.  you MUST keep door open a little orthis wont work.  room temp of 15°c will give a very slow fermentation.

I let the others comment on the bake  but the crumb does look better, 

Leslie

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Hi leslie, thank you for the suggestion! I do have a microwave, and was actually using that to proof, but since my microwave has no light I had to keep replacing a cup of boiling water in there every 30 minutes or so to keep the temperature in that enclosure up, and I can't do that when not at home for the whole day.. Won't a very slow fermentation still achieve the end I'm looking for? I'm just wondering if there is anything else detrimental to the dough (i.e. Kat mentioned not leaving the dough to autolyse overnight because UK flour is suspect..?) besides the fermentation, seeing as it is that my yeasts seem to like to take their own sweet time.

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

I want you to try something. Take out the high hydration and all the fancy schmancy sourdough techniques. Try this...

  • Strong bread flour 100%
  • Water 60%
  • Salt 2%
  • Mature Starter 20%

Prep your starter so it's ready for the recipe. 

Mix the salt and the flour together in one bowl. 

In another bowl measure out the water, add the starter and mix thoroughly. 

Add the flour/salt mix and combine. 

Knead the dough till full gluten formation. Roll your sleeves up and give it a good old fashioned knead! 

Cover the bowl and bulk ferment till 50% risen. 

Flour the bench and pre-shape the dough. Rest for 15-20 minutes. 

Shape into a prepared banneton and final proof till just under doubled. 

Bake in a preheated oven. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Good idea, Abe. This modest bread should prove the starter. The bulk ferment and final proof shouldn’t take more than a few hours each.

My only concern is what happens if it takes many hours for the proofed dough to double? I have no experience baking this way. Is it normal for the dough to near double in a couple of hours or so for this procedure?

Dan

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

It's more a matter of not judging it well. That's why I've gone modest with 50% for the bulk ferment and just under doubled for the final proof. If our assumptions are correct then any errors of underestimating the doughs readiness should be sorted. My way of saying better under proofed  then over proofed. 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Hi Abe,

I intend to try that the next time I bake - my starter is now sitting on my table maturing. Sorry I forgot to reply to your offer to have a baking session - I would really be keen, but I can't imagine how that works if many hours of proving are required? The notion of 50% risen after bulk fermentation and doubled after final proofing is a helpful indicator for me, I will watch for that the next time!

@Dan - That was my problem exactly; it seemed that even modest rises were taking a while, so is there any issue with a 10.5h proof if it gives me the crumb as in the picture? I swear that is the best tasting/textured bread I have made out of all my attempts so far..

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

And can be worked out. We could even do the same recipe and over the internet. Or if you're near enough we could work out anytime so you can see when a dough is ready at such and such a stage etc.

I think it's just over fermented. Tasty but flat. Just say you intended on making ciabatta and call it a success :) 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

How exactly does a 65% dough turn into a ciabatta? Truth be told a ciabatta is exactly what it reminds me of..

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

If 65% dough is grossly over fermented it will turn to slop. The gluten breaks down and the dough will never be able to hold a shape.

Dan

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Additionally, I don't seem to be able to find any private message function to liaise concerning details.. Am new to this, sorry!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

floydm@thefreshloaf.com and ask him to turn in your private messages. 

Everything points to overfermented. 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Have you tried to enter your email address in your profile? I would think that this is a feature that Floyd would have to turn on.

go to your profile by clicking on your icon That is located beneath each posted message. See if you can set it up.

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

Abe, doesn’t the fact that the crumb in the image was nice and open indicate that the starter is probably good?

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

Agreed! Dan. The starter is certainly doing its job. 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Ah so overfermentation it is then. I'm glad to know at least one thing is working! Would it be perhaps a good idea, then, to create a preferment the night before (feeding my starter with part of the flour and water) in order to bump the inoculation up?

If so, how much would be too much inoculation? My first few recipes (the breads which looked successful from the outside, and handled/held their shape properly and produced ears and all) were done with about 165g (out of 554g flour/335g water) overnight room-temperature preferments (one tablespoon starter, 75g flour, 75g water), 2.5 hour bulk shapes and 3hour proofs and they still came out underproofed, however..

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

SpamBlah, stay with Lechem, aka Abe. He has successfully helped many a baker get started. Are you planning to bake the loaf he recommended? If so, are you familiar with Baker’s Percentages? If not, let us know and either Abe,

  • Strong bread flour 100%
  • Water 60%
  • Salt 2%
  • Mature Starter 20%

Small test bread @ 500 grams total dough weight.

  • flour 275g
  • water 165g
  • salt 6g
  • starter 55g

I or someone else can calculate the grams of each ingredient. Just let us know what size dough you want to bake.

Once we know the dough weight we’ll know how much Levain you need for the bake.

If you have been actively feeding/refreshing your starter it should be in good shape.

 

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

Yup am familiar with bakers' percentages, will be doing that today! Although I might be using more flour (keeping the previous 485g incl starter) because my proofing bowl (the faux-banneton) is a bit too big for small loaves, and also more starter (10g mixed/fed with 75g water and flour overnight) given how my starter seems to be slower-acting. And thanks Floyd!

Floydm's picture
Floydm

You have PMs now.

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

If anyone is following this thread, figured I should post an update about four or five loaves later with much coaching from Abe.. still have no idea what I did wrong all the rest of the times and what I've done right here (I swear it feels like I mangled the shaping! - and I suppose I did, given that the middle does feature a tighter crumb), but at least now I know Tesco bread flour can withstand a 21h fridge proof after 6 hours at 28C or so without dissolving into a puddle!

This was a ~63% hydration loaf.

Danni3ll3's picture
Danni3ll3

and I don’t see a thing wrong with your crumb! Well done!

Lechem's picture
Lechem (not verified)

What a lovely loaf.

Bon Appetit

DesigningWoman's picture
DesigningWoman

Congratulations!

- Carole

K99mn's picture
K99mn

It could almost have been me writing that!! read with much interest starter now bubbling ...here we go again hope im as successful as you have been, well done

IPlayWithFood's picture
IPlayWithFood

I figured I couldn't have been the only one. For what it's worth, though it remains to be seen if I can replicate this, what I've found has been useful for me so far has been to really know my starter. Use it only when it has peaked, and give it enough time to munch its way through your dough - the successful loaf had 5 hours in an oven with a bowl of boiling water, in addition to 2 hours proofing and a further 21 in the fridge! Control the amount of hydration (don't go beyond 65% on Tesco flour) and aggressively pre-shape and shape your loaf until it is really very very taut, to hopefully prevent it from falling apart into slop.